Jesus Was The God Men Had Seen In the O.T.

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Before He became incarnated, Jesus had a celestial body.
We don't know that to be so. It does answer my question to you, however.
 
Upvote 0

Revelation 22:10-12

Active Member
Jan 31, 2019
192
40
60
Hermitage
✟17,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God the Father was seen by certain people in OT times, as scripture teaches, but that was merely the form that the Father assumed for the purpose.

Sorry. I disagree with you. Jesus said scriptures testified of "Jesus". He even said Abraham saw "Jesus".

Jesus said no man has seen the Father except Jesus did.

So where is there clear scripture that cites the God men had seen was the Father when there are scripture saying otherwise that it cannot be so?
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Sorry. I disagree with you. Jesus said scriptures testified of "Jesus". He even said Abraham saw "Jesus".
It's fair that we disagree, but I have to say that I have never encountered anyone previously who contended that Jesus had a certain celestial kind of body, not just spirit, in heaven that he swapped for a body like ours while he was on Earth. Maybe the entailed wisdom of Christians through the centuries should be give some weight in this matter.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Sorry. I disagree with you. Jesus said scriptures testified of "Jesus". He even said Abraham saw "Jesus".

No, it says he saw his day and "his day" could have been his birth or perhaps a vision of the future of the cross or the second coming. What it doesn't say is Jesus appeared to Abraham in Gen 18.
 
Upvote 0

Revelation 22:10-12

Active Member
Jan 31, 2019
192
40
60
Hermitage
✟17,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, it says he saw his day and "his day" could have been his birth or perhaps a vision of the future of the cross or the second coming. What it doesn't say is Jesus appeared to Abraham in Gen 18.

It was not the Father that men had seen in the O.T.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

I believe Jesus and the Jews understood what He had meant saying Jesus was not that old to have seen Abraham, before Jesus said before Abraham was, I am for why they tried to stone Him for "blasphemy".

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,682
8,018
PA
Visit site
✟1,013,527.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
For what it’s worth, the early Church taught that the appearances of God in the O.T. were of the pre-incarnate Christ:

“For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;“(John 5:46) [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush. And it would be endless to recount [the occasions] upon which the Son of God is shown forth by Moses. Of the day of His passion, too, he was not ignorant; but foretold Him, after a figurative manner, by the name given to the passover; and at that very festival, which had been proclaimed such a long time previously by Moses, did our Lord suffer, thus fulfilling the passover.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. 5535-41)
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,682
8,018
PA
Visit site
✟1,013,527.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Another quote from one of the earliest historical Christian writings:

St Justin Martyr said:
Therefore, neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any man saw the Father and ineffable Lord of absolutely all things and of Christ himself, but [saw] only him who, according to his [the Father's] will, is both God, his Son, and Angel, from the fact that he ministers to his purpose. Whom he also has willed to be born through the Virgin, and who once became fire for that conversation with Moses in the bush (Dial.127.4).
God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational Power [proceeding] from himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord, and Word; and on another occasion he calls himself Captain, when he appears in human form to Joshua son of Nave (Dial.61.1).

From the Western Church, Luther even considered the O.T. Theophanies to mean God the Son:

Martin Luther said:
“Thus it follows powerfully and irrefutably that the God who led the people of Israel out of Egypt and through the Red Sea, who guided them in the wilderness through the pillars of cloud and fire, who nourished them with heavenly bread, and who performed all the miracles Moses describes in his book, who also brought them into the land of Canaan and then gave them kings and priests and everything, is therefore God and none other than Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Virgin Mary, whom we call Christ our God and Lord.... And, again, it is he who gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai, saying, "I am the Lord your God who led you out of Egypt; you shall have no other gods." Yes, Jesus of Nazareth, who died for us on the cross, is the God who says in the First Commandment, "I, the Lord, am your God."

Consider Jude 1 (5), 1 Corinthians 10:1-10, John 12:41 and John 8:56-59
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Then we agree to disagree seeing how you have no scripture citing to that as truth.
But there is also no scripture clearly saying that it is the Son instead. The fact is that we do not know for sure, but because the main references are from the OT which concerned a people who had yet to be aware of the Trinitarian nature of God...
 
Upvote 0

Revelation 22:10-12

Active Member
Jan 31, 2019
192
40
60
Hermitage
✟17,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But there is also no scripture clearly saying that it is the Son instead. The fact is that we do not know for sure, but because the main references are from the OT which concerned a people who had yet to be aware of the Trinitarian nature of God...

To take Jesus at His words, if we do not believe Moses' writings about Him, how will anyone believe His words? Since Jesus said that no man has seen God the Father at any time... then that leaves the Son as the God men had seen in the O.T..
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Since Jesus said that no man has seen God the Father at any time...


That's not what he said. That's a misunderstanding of the Greek and the use of old English. I have already posted about this showing what a scholar says about it.
 
Upvote 0

Ing Bee

Son of Encouragement
Supporter
Mar 21, 2018
229
156
East Bay
✟78,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Look up all the "Angel of Yahweh" references. He shows up a lot!

Distinctives of the A.O.Y.:
  • Doesn't give his name: it's too wonderful
  • Receives worship
  • Personally blesses people, Gives commands, Demonstrates personal agency
  • Is called Yahweh yet also references Yahweh
  • Is present with Yahweh
  • Frequently shows up with a sword
  • Receives comfort directly from Yahweh and acts as his direct representative
  • Is the Angel that has Yahweh's name in himself and whose words are to be obeyed
  • Is the Captain of the Host of Yahweh
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums