ViaCrucis

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I don't see how this supports your view of baptismal regeneration.

The Elect can fall away. So yes, the baptized can later reject their baptism, just as a person who has heard the Gospel and believed can later reject it. But whether by the efficacious working of the preaching of the Gospel or in the waters of Holy Baptism, the person so affected has faith, and this is the gift and work of God.

Can't we just talk about whether or not baptismal regeneration is biblically viable?

If we start getting into how it is possible for the Elect to fall away, or why if God wants everyone to be saved how can some be saved and not others, then we have already entered the Crux Theologorum--that is what it is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tree of Life

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The Elect can fall away. So yes, the baptized can later reject their baptism, just as a person who has heard the Gospel and believed can later reject it. But whether by the efficacious working of the preaching of the Gospel or in the waters of Holy Baptism, the person so affected has faith, and this is the gift and work of God.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that all who hear the gospel are given faith by hearing?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm a little confused. Are you saying that all who hear the gospel are given faith by hearing?

That's obviously not true, since many will hear and refuse. The fault, however, is not in the word. The word is efficacious for all, even for those who refuse it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Kaon

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When Christ our God said we are born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

The Apostle is clear, we were circumcised spiritually in our baptism, Colossians 2:11-12.

-CryptoLutheran

Where does the Aribiter of the Law say that water baptism is justification for salvation? Does the Word of God Himself ever say baptism by terrestrial waters is necessary for salvation?
 
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CaspianSails

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I agree with you that many who have been baptized will perish due to a lack of faith in the promise of salvation. However I would like to ask if you would agree that it is necessary to be found in Christ in order to share in His resurrection life? And if your answer is yes, is there anything other than baptism within the New Testament that directly connects the believer with the reality of being found in Him?[/QUOT
I agree with you that many who have been baptized will perish due to a lack of faith in the promise of salvation. However I would like to ask if you would agree that it is necessary to be found in Christ in order to share in His resurrection life? And if your answer is yes, is there anything other than baptism within the New Testament that directly connects the believer with the reality of being found in Him?

What must you do to have eternal life?
Acts 16:30-31, Romans 10:9
 
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ViaCrucis

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Where does the Aribiter of the Law say that water baptism is justification for salvation? Does the Word of God Himself ever say baptism by terrestrial waters is necessary for salvation?

He says that the new birth is by water and the Spirit. So, I mean, yes He does.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BABerean2

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He says that the new birth is by water and the Spirit. So, I mean, yes He does.

-CryptoLutheran

Or is Christ contrasting being born of water to being born again of the Spirit of God?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


All of us are born in the water (amniotic fluid) of our mother's womb, which issues forth at birth.
This is the first birth found in John 3:5.



Lutherans and Baptists have a habit of arguing over the timing of water baptism.
However, it is the baptism of the Spirit found in Luke 3:16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, whose timing is found in Ephesians 1:13, and whose importance is found in John 14:26, and 1 John 2:27 that is important.

The power is in the Spirit, instead of in the water.


.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Redeemer explains very well what the WATER birth is.

Note that the Lord speaks of born, singular, of water and Spirit; and is used to clarify what He has said concerning "born again". The idea that the water here refers to "water" breaking immediately preceding going into labor is an ad hoc argument used in order to deny the plain meaning of the text. Further, such an interpretation brings in a myriad of other immense problems: What about emergencies where children are surgically removed from the womb before labor because of medical complications? Why would the Lord, in talking about how to be born again need to first say "you have to be born first"?

Instead, from the very beginning and until the present day, the unanimous position of the Christian Church, with only a minority dissent in modern times, has been clear as crystal: Here Christ speaks of Holy Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Or is Christ contrasting being born of water to being born again of the Spirit of God?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


All of us are born in the water (amniotic fluid) of our mother's womb, which issues forth at birth.
This is the first birth found in John 3:5.



Lutherans and Baptists have a habit of arguing over the timing of water baptism.
However, it is the baptism of the Spirit found in Luke 3:16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, whose timing is found in Ephesians 1:13, and whose importance is found in John 14:26, and 1 John 2:27 that is important.

The power is in the Spirit, instead of in the water.


.

See my above statement. The amniotic fluid argument is a non-starter, and exists exclusively as an ad hoc means of rejecting the historic, unanimous understanding which Christians have had since the beginning.

Once one has decided to reject the biblical and historic Christian understanding of Baptism, all passages in support of that position must be explained away.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BABerean2

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See my above statement. The amniotic fluid argument is a non-starter, and exists exclusively as an ad hoc means of rejecting the historic, unanimous understanding which Christians have had since the beginning.

Once one has decided to reject the biblical and historic Christian understanding of Baptism, all passages in support of that position must be explained away.

-CryptoLutheran

Are you saying a person is "born again" of the Spirit of God when baptized in water as an infant?


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

.
 
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Kaon

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Note that the Lord speaks of born, singular, of water and Spirit; and is used to clarify what He has said concerning "born again". The idea that the water here refers to "water" breaking immediately preceding going into labor is an ad hoc argument used in order to deny the plain meaning of the text. Further, such an interpretation brings in a myriad of other immense problems: What about emergencies where children are surgically removed from the womb before labor because of medical complications? Why would the Lord, in talking about how to be born again need to first say "you have to be born first"?

Instead, from the very beginning and until the present day, the unanimous position of the Christian Church, with only a minority dissent in modern times, has been clear as crystal: Here Christ speaks of Holy Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

EVERYONE that is human is born of amniotic fluid, even if it is a premature rupture of that fluid. Man, we are definitely in the end.

The Word of God is very clear on what a first birth of water is. Stop doctrinizing what is simple.
 
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Kaon

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See my above statement. The amniotic fluid argument is a non-starter, and exists exclusively as an ad hoc means of rejecting the historic, unanimous understanding which Christians have had since the beginning.

Once one has decided to reject the biblical and historic Christian understanding of Baptism, all passages in support of that position must be explained away.

-CryptoLutheran

Your doctrine of men is offensive. The Word of God is clear about what a bag of waters and water birth is.


Name one place where the Most High God, or the Word of God ever says WATER BAPTISM (at infant ages no less) is required.

Show us where the aribter(s) of the Law say WATER BAPTISM 1) hasn't happened when a human is born, 2) must happen for salvation, and 3) can be done when the human is a infant.

Put all of this to rest with His word, not rhetoric or doctrines of MEN.
 
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Kaon

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He says that the new birth is by water and the Spirit. So, I mean, yes He does.

-CryptoLutheran

Water: amniotic fluid
Spirit should be self explanatory, but since water baptism, and being born of water isnt, then I will say it is when you are actually LIVING that you get a spirit. That is real rebirth: when you can exist NAKED.

You speak as as if you have authority, but I dont see any resonance thereof. Moreover, your arguments are dismissive and rely on the foundation of doctrine of men. I have heard people just like you speak before.

You still never showed where the Most High God said what you said. I suspect, likely, you will quote Paul, and when I highlight how convoluted the interpretation is, and how Paul isn't The Most High God or Word of God (or how Paul shouldn't contradict the Most High God) you will claim I am a heretic, or a blasphemer. It's formulaic of a Babylonian consciousness - which is nearly the world*.

Instead of attacking the message even, why don't you challenge it with TRUTH? I know why, but I would like to hear from you (in addition to your CANONICAL verses about where the Most High God requires water baptism at infancy, for example. )


* Babylonian mentality is a mentality that puts a CREATURE before the CREATOR. Paul is not the Most High God, or the Word of God. He is a man who distributed the Word of God to others. Jesse, Abraham, Isaac, etc. are not the Most High God either, but a certain reaction evolves when one mentions Paul in this respect. Are these men liars of the Word of God? No. Should they contradict the Most High God? NO. It is up to the individual to realize this.
 
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Hillsage

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Jesus is talking about spiritual things to Nicodemus. Things which Nic took totally in the flesh. The church theologies of today take them totally in the flesh (with water baptism) or half in the flesh (with amniotic fluid). The spiritual waters/words of regeneration which result in the spiritual rebirth of one's spirit into a new creation of the spirit of CHRIST in them comes from yet another baptism. A baptism missed by all here, so far.

TIT 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing/loutron of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

3067 loutron {loo-tron'}: from 3068; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), baptism.

And that 'washing' figurative baptism, is not with literal water but spiritual water of living word.

EPH 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing/loutron of water by the word/rhema,

It is the spoken/rhema word of God which brings one into the FIRST salvation of our spirit being re-birthed into the holy spirit of Christ. Just as happened at Samaria.

ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

But there is a subsequent baptism. And one that is not for the spirit of Christ IN you, but for the Holy Spirit to come upon you and empower you supernaturally. And that is what subsequetially happened in Samaria.

ACT 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 
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SkyWriting

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I have heard the Lutherans speak of infant faith!

Jesus covered that as well as Lutherans.



Luke 18,15-17
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

1 Peter 2,2
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

Mark 10,15
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
 
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BABerean2

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1 Peter 2,2
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

Build no doctrine on part of a sentence.


1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

.
 
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John the Ex-Baptist

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Why are we so quick to deny that God chooses to manifest His power through ordinary means? Why are we so quick to reject the notion that Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd through Whom we have been created, and Who knows every frailty within our frame? Is it really any wonder that the One who created us in flesh and blood, with five senses to discern the things around us, and a brain to compute the data our senses feed to it; that He should choose to bestow His gifts of grace through those very means?

No Lutheran or any other person holding to the doctrine of baptism that we do, believe that somehow that water holds a magical power to bring the dead to life. But rather the Words of Christ, given by Him to us and attached to a tangible and ordinary means, is that which holds the true power. Water without the Word of Christ is simply useful to drink or wash in. But when His Word instructs us that through the act of baptism, He shall with us all that He has promised, then who are we to argue to the contrary?

It is Christ who ordained the ordinary means of baptism to be attached to His promise of eternal life through the forgiveness of our sins. Not Lutherans.


Matthew 28:18–20 (ESV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


Mark 16:15–16 (ESV)
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The same promise was spoken by the apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost, and those listening responded in faith.


Acts 2:38–41 (ESV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

And if you're someone who believes that the writings of the apostle Paul found in the Bible are truly God's Word, then it was he who shows to us how the ordinary means is fitted with the underlying promise of Christ that truly holds the power to save us.


Romans 6:3–11 (ESV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.


Colossians 2:8–14 (ESV)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

I for one cannot discern if I have died with Christ, in order that I may live with Him. I cannot discern if my spiritual flesh has been circumcised or not. I never remember feeling that I had been baptized in fire, that could not be explained away with some other emotional reasoning. In short, I know that my redemption was won on the Cross of Calvary, and is found in Christ alone. However I am utterly unable to connect myself to either by my own means.

How can we say we believe and trust in Him for our salvation, which is what saving faith actually is, then why do we reject the ordinary means He has given us in His great mercy, in order that in them we may attach our faith to His promises? Seems a little reminiscent of this Old Testament passage to me:


2 Kings 5:10–14 (ESV)
10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored, and you shall be clean.” 11 But Naaman was angry and went away, saying, “Behold, I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call upon the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 But his servants came near and said to him, “My father, it is a great word the prophet has spoken to you; will you not do it? Has he actually said to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14 So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
 
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BABerean2

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Why are we so quick to deny that God chooses to manifest His power through ordinary means? Why are we so quick to reject the notion that Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd through Whom we have been created, and Who knows every frailty within our frame? Is it really any wonder that the One who created us in flesh and blood, with five senses to discern the things around us, and a brain to compute the data our senses feed to it; that He should choose to bestow His gifts of grace through those very means?

No Lutheran or any other person holding to the doctrine of baptism that we do, believe that somehow that water holds a magical power to bring the dead to life. But rather the Words of Christ, given by Him to us and attached to a tangible and ordinary means, is that which holds the true power. Water without the Word of Christ is simply useful to drink or wash in. But when His Word instructs us that through the act of baptism, He shall with us all that He has promised, then who are we to argue to the contrary?

It is Christ who ordained the ordinary means of baptism to be attached to His promise of eternal life through the forgiveness of our sins. Not Lutherans.


Matthew 28:18–20 (ESV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


Mark 16:15–16 (ESV)
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The same promise was spoken by the apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost, and those listening responded in faith.


Acts 2:38–41 (ESV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

And if you're someone who believes that the writings of the apostle Paul found in the Bible are truly God's Word, then it was he who shows to us how the ordinary means is fitted with the underlying promise of Christ that truly holds the power to save us.


Romans 6:3–11 (ESV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.


Colossians 2:8–14 (ESV)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

I for one cannot discern if I have died with Christ, in order that I may live with Him. I cannot discern if my spiritual flesh has been circumcised or not. I never remember feeling that I had been baptized in fire, that could not be explained away with some other emotional reasoning. In short, I know that my redemption was won on the Cross of Calvary, and is found in Christ alone. However I am utterly unable to connect myself to either by my own means.

How can we say we believe and trust in Him for our salvation, which is what saving faith actually is, then why do we reject the ordinary means He has given us in His great mercy, in order that in them we may attach our faith to His promises? Seems a little reminiscent of this Old Testament passage to me:


2 Kings 5:10–14 (ESV)
10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored, and you shall be clean.” 11 But Naaman was angry and went away, saying, “Behold, I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call upon the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 But his servants came near and said to him, “My father, it is a great word the prophet has spoken to you; will you not do it? Has he actually said to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14 So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.


Often times both the Lutheran and the Baptist picture water each time the word "baptism" is found in the New Testament.

However, the most important use of the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water.


In the verse below John the Baptist reveals the difference between the baptism in water and the baptism that comes from Christ.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


This is confirmed below by Paul.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


The timing of the baptism of the Spirit is found in the verse below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Jesus reveals below that the Holy Spirit will be the master teacher.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


In Hebrews 8:6-13 we find the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Those in the New Covenant have their own internal teacher.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


This fact is confirmed below by the Apostle John.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


I consider myself a "Baptist" because I believe that only believers are to be baptized in water, after they have been baptized by the Spirit.
The ceremony using water is a public declaration, which reveals the former.

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Or is Christ contrasting being born of water to being born again of the Spirit of God?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


All of us are born in the water (amniotic fluid) of our mother's womb, which issues forth at birth.
This is the first birth found in John 3:5.



Lutherans and Baptists have a habit of arguing over the timing of water baptism.
However, it is the baptism of the Spirit found in Luke 3:16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, whose timing is found in Ephesians 1:13, and whose importance is found in John 14:26, and 1 John 2:27 that is important.

The power is in the Spirit, instead of in the water.


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Unacceptable. Heremeneutics is pure chaos without certain rules. One of those critical rules is that you can't ascribe arbitrary meanings to Greek phrases. Meaning in this case you have to ask, 'Has ANYONE, whether in Greek, or even in ANY OTHER KNOWN LANGUAGE WHETHER ANCIENT OR MODERN, ever used the expression 'born of water' as an idiom for 'born of womb'?

Nobody talks that way. There is no historic precedent for, or evidence of, such an idiom.

Let's bear in mind that this speech was the very Son of God, standing on earth before men, delivering His magnum opus on how to be saved (climaxing at John 3:16). This is the LAST place we'd expect God to entangle us in a bunch of unrecognizable, ambiguous, unprecedented idioms.
 
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