Why do Christians say that Jesus is the Messiah?
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Sanoy
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Okay good. So after all that, and the preconceived notions stuff, you finally understand that cloud rider and Donkey are literal expectations. Or at least I didn't see any comments to maintain the contrary on your last reply so I assume you now understand you were reading scripture wrongly. I say that not in a demeaning way, but to show you that you should have doubts over your current method of interpreting scripture. So if there were two mutually exclusive expectations for the coming, then there are two comings and that is where the unfulfilled expectations lay.
Yes Moses is talking, and he is saying I because God gave him the words. If I told you to dutifully give a message on my behalf that said "I command you all to go to the mall". You would say "I command you all to go to the mall", no one would think you are me because I'm telling you that I am relaying the message I was given...just as the head of the chapter informs. And the writer here in Deut 29 doesn't say, "Hashem said" it says 'Moses said'. See the difference? Zechariah says "Hashem said, Hashem rebuke you". That is a critical difference. And it's not the only time in the Bible, like I said this is a running theme with a plentitude of examples I can go to.
The assumption of Moses has Michael appealing to a greater power, Hashem, rather than engaging the adversary directly. That is all I'm using from the Assumption of Moses, the historical example of the phrase being used to appeal to a higher power for an action against the adversary. Why is Hashem using that same phrase in dealing with the same situation with adversary in Zechariah 3:2? Why would He choose to speak in the third person?
I am looking at these sources from the Hebrew, why aren't you?
No the Trinity is G-d in the three persons. Is Cerberus 4 persons or three? "God" means what it means in the Hebrew, not English, it means Elohim.
You cannot factually say these texts are unambiguous to you when you are standing on a modern interpretation that is wholly separate from that of the 2nd Temple Period. They at least had a temple to validate their obedience and relationship to Hashem, so I prefer their interpretation. The modern Judaic believer has no such validation. What gives your interpretation any validity when Hashem has not dwelled with you in over 2,000 years? You quote Hosea, regarding the latter days, saying that Israel will turn to the Lord but you forget it's complimentary prophecy in Zechariah 12. "so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." and Also notice how the language switches from first person to third person, from me to him. You want to know why the whole world calls on the name of Hashem, while you sit doing nothing without a temple? That is why, because you stand in stiff-necked disobedience.
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Steve Petersen
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I think both sides in this discussion might actually benefit by examining the writings of the Jewish sages (of all opinions) on the subject of Messiah. You might find, that (with a little adjustment to your dogma) you aren't that far apart about Messiah.
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No, I'm simply tired of restating the same thing over and over again. There were not two expectations. Say you're right that the donkey is literal. It still doesn't make Jesus the Messiah. We're told specifically in Zechariah 9:9: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, He is triumphant, and victorious, humble, and riding upon an ass, Even upon a colt the foal of an ass." When Jesus rode into Jerusalem upon an ass, he was not triumphant nor victorious in any way since he didn't accomplish anything. And in Daniel 7:13, it simply says that the Messiah will come with the clouds of heaven. Note again that what Daniel is seeing is a vision which represents the victorious coming of the King Messiah.
But you're ignoring the fact that Moses in this dialogue seemingly switches between speaking as himself and speaking as God without any preface in verse 6 that he is speaking as God. In other words, he doesn't let the people know he's speaking as God before he actually does it.
You just reinforced my point. If Michael is the one speaking here and he is called HaShem, then it is perfectly consistent with the Hebraic understanding of agency. Do you really thing that the Jews believed that Michael was apart of some "god-head" with HaShem? No. But going back to this concept of agency, we see Moses doing the same thing Deuteronomy 11:14-15 speaking as God.
That's different then what you're talking about. If you have these three divine persons, with three divine minds, and three divine wills, who are all three divinely eternal with all three eternally interacting with each, with one being more powerful than the other two (Mk 13:32), and with one being the god of another one of the divine persons (Jn 20:17, Eph 1:17, Rev 3:12), then you have by definition three divine gods.
What your point?
But you fail to provide unambiguous evidence that your interpretations were the ones held by the Jews in the second Temple period.
You mean the ones that completely rejected Jesus? My interpretation has validity because it can be shown to go back all the way to what the Jews believed in the 1st and 2nd centuries. The NT proves the fact that no one believed in a second coming of the Messiah. When Jesus was telling his disciples that he was going to be killed (Matthew 16:21-22), why do you think Peter pulls Jesus aside and says: "God forbid that this should happen to you." Was Peter not aware that the Messiah had to die as a "vicarious atonement"?
In the context of Zechariah 12 we are told that God will defend His people and destroy their enemies. On that day, “they [the nation of Israel, i.e., the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, mentioned at the beginning of verse 10] shall look to Me [God] whom they [the nations, spoken of in verse 9, that shall come up against Jerusalem] have pierced; then they [Israel] shall mourn for him [the slain of Israel as personified by the leader of the people, the warrior Messiah, the son of Joseph, who will die in battle at this time (Sukkah 52a)].” God identifies with his people to the degree that He takes part figuratively in the nation’s destiny. To attack (pierce) Israel is to attack God. That is why God says: “Me whom they have pierced” even though it is the people of Israel and not God who is actually “pierced.” Accordingly, Isaiah says of God’s relationship to Israel: “In all their affliction He was afflicted” (Isaiah 63:9), and in Psalms 83:2-6 we see that the nations which hate God manifest that hatred by seeking to destroy the Jewish people.
On the contrary, the whole world is not "calling on the name of HaShem." There has been more war and sin during this time than ever before. And the fact that we are debating if Jesus is the Messiah proves that he is not the Messiah. When the Messiah comes, it won't be something that you have to accept by faith. It will be an observable event that no one can deny.
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Steve Petersen
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As the sages said 'As with the first redeemer, so with the last. Just as the first redeemer was revealed and then hidden again from them for three months, so the last redeemer will be revealed and then hidden again from them. And how long will he be hidden from them? R. Tanhuma in the name of the rabbis said 'Forty-five days..." R. Yitzhak ben Qatzarta in the name of R. Yona said 'Those are the forty-five days when Israel will pluck salt-worth and eat it." (Job 30:4, Ruth Rab. 5:6, Num. Rab. 11:2)
From the Messiah Texts, by Raphael Patai, p. xxxi, Wayne State University Press, copyright 1979.
From the Messiah Texts, by Raphael Patai, p. xxxi, Wayne State University Press, copyright 1979.
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Just examine the Messianic passages: Isaiah 2, 11, 59:20; Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39; Ezekiel 34:24, 38:16, 45:22; Hosea 3:4-5; Micah 4, 5; Zephaniah 3:9; Zechariah 6:12-13, 14:9; Daniel 7:13-14. Note that many of the Messianic passages aren't about the Messiah himself but what will happen in his days.
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How does this apply to two comings of the Messiah? If you recognize the parallel, they're not saying that the King Messiah will die and come back to complete the mission.
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Steve Petersen
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I connect the hidden period to the tradition of Messiah ben Joseph who is slain by Armilus (a play on Romulus, the Romans). According to one tradition, his body will be hidden until ben David comes and resurrects him.
MESSIAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com
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Sanoy
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Restating your assertion of symbolism while you have sitting objections is a problem. It is a historical fact that there was 2nd temple expectation that the Messiah would come on a Donkey. It is a historical fact that Hashem was seen as the cloud rider Duet 33:26, Psalm 68:33, Psalm 104:3, Isaiah 19:1. So you need to explain why you take a different interpretation when your ancestors, who actually had a temple, took it literally. You need to overcome those objections, not merely restate your assertions.
Let me just be clear. If you want to make the claim that Duet 29 is like Zechariah 3:2 you need to show the same format as Zechariah 3:2 where the writer says "Hashem said" and it was Moses who said it. Right now you have Moses said, and he is carrying Hashems words. Until you do that you have no literary comparison.
Michael isn't called Hashem, he is called Michael. Michael says "Hashem rebuke you". And Michael is not in Zechariah 3:2. If you want to claim that scripture x is like Zechariah 3:2 you need to show the same format where the text says "Hashem said". Not Moses said, those are apples and oranges. If you want to show this as a custom it needs to include the same colloquial identifiers, not different ones.
The point in me telling you that "God" means Elohim is to further explain that the Godhead is not a person but is the divine substance that the 3 persons share.
I don't need to provide 2nd temple counter examples to the examples I am presenting. YOU DO. And even if you do, it does not change the fact that there was real historic literal expectation to the coming of the Messiah. Your welcome to search for some, but if you present them you will have to drop the case that they are unambiguous won't you? So you have a choice in the poison you are drinking.
The 2nd Temple lasted for over 500 years. It ended a few decades after Jesus's death with many signs and omens of God's displeasure which is apparent to this day by the lack of a temple. Not only is the Temple missing, the Temple mount is dedicated to a pagan god. Matthew 16:21-22 doesn't show that no one believed in a second coming of the Messiah, it just shows they expected the Messiah to conquer Israels enemies. We can see with John the baptist that there were those that believed in 2 comings because John asks Jesus from Prison “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?”. That is future tense.
You quote Jewish Talmudic speculation as if it should have any authority. I can put brackets in God's word with my own interpretations too. Rabbi's are a dime a dozen, you can always find a Rabbi who will teach what ones itching ears wish to hear. Every month I hear the next rabbi who says the Messiah will come on day X. Right now he is supposed to come on Purim. After Purim we will hear from another Rabbi. The Talmuds don't even agree on each other. Afflicted and Pierced are quite different.
The whole world prays to Hashem, not every person, but people of every nation and tongue and you had no part in that. While that was happening Hashem left your temple. It is the second coming that will be unmistakable, not the first. Paul says of this "I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." When that is done you will look upon whom you have pierced.
I would also like to hear your reply about the cloud rider in Daniel 7 being a man given that the text says "like" a man, and the prophecy that complements it at the end of Psalm 82 calls the person an Elohim. And all 4 other verses that use the cloud rider terminology refer to Hashem. So how is the Messiah to come on the clouds supposed to be a simple man. You quote Isaiah 63 to lesson Zechariah 12 but the prophecy in Isaiah is of Hashem coming to destroy the nations, so again how is the cloud rider in Daniel 7 a simple man?
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Steve Petersen
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You still haven't given any evidence that 2nd Temple Pharisees believed that the Messiah would come on a donkey before actually doing anything, such as being triumphant and victorious as verse 9 says. And you're ignoring the fact that what we find here in Zechariah 9:9 continues on into verse 10 which says: "And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, And the horse from Jerusalem, And the battle bow shall be cut off, And he shall speak peace unto the nations; And his dominion shall be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth." Ignoring the fact for right now that Jesus never ruled from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth, we have statements right here which explain the imagery of the King Messiah riding on a donkey which is that a donkey, which is an animal not used for war, represents the Messiah bringing peace in the world and as we read in verse 10 that HaShem will destroy the chariot of Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem and the battle bow shall be cut off because all three of these things represent the various instruments used in war. But when the Messiah comes and defeats all of the enemies of G-d, there will be no need for these things since Israel will never have to go to war again.
No one thought that HaShem was the cloud rider like its only imagery that can be used for HaShem and speaking of which no one believed that HaShem was literally surfing on the clouds. You reference Deuteronomy 33:26 but it literally says: "There is none like unto God, O Jeshurun, Who rides upon the heaven as thy help, And in His excellency on the skies." So this is an ongoing process but last time I checked I've never see HaShem as a man surfing on the clouds in the sky.
So then what was your whole point about the assumption of Moses mentioning Michael as the one who is speaking here? We know that it is an angel speaking here since we are specifically told in Zechariah 3:1 that Joshua was standing before an angel of the LORD and Satan was acting as a prosecutor to accuse him. But the angel standing as God's representative speaks as God as already explained. What you're trying to do is create a false dichotomy as if a slightly different format completely changes the dictum of Hebrew agency.
There is in fact a real historic literal expectation to the coming of the Messiah in contrast to the Christian concept of the conveniently invisible kingdom that Jesus is now artificially ruling. You're the one who must provide historical evidence that the Jews in Jesus' time expected the Messiah to come and die as a "vicarious atonement" and then return later to actually fulfill the main Messianic prophecies. Just imagine if I took someone like Bar Kokhba who came way closer to fulfilling the Messianic prophecies than Jesus did and say that he was sinless and that he was wrongly killed by the Romans and that he was ressurected and that he would return as the Messiah. Would you believe me? Of course not.
It could easily be stated that the reason God destroyed the Temple was because many Jews (many according to the NT) believed in Jesus. So believing that God sacrificed a man to atone for everyone's sins even though human sacrifice and men dieing on behalf of other people's sins are blasphemous ideas and is a good way to bring God's righteous wrath on the nation.
The text explicitly shows that the reason Peter pulled Jesus aside and ridiculed him is because he just told his disciples that he would die.
He is speaking from the point of view of someone who doesn't know if the Messiah has come yet.
But you're ignoring the fact that the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud are simply records of discussions on all aspects of Jewish life. It is only the legal part of the Talmud (the Mishnah) which is binding.
No, not really. Being pierced is a form of affliction.
So what you're trying to say is because the Hebrew word "elohim" is plural that it means that G-d is more than one Person. Of course if you read any authoritative Christian lexicon, they will unanimously tell you that "elohim", when used of a singular individual, is a plural intensive since in a Hebrew plural doesn't necessarily mean a plural in number but a plural in power or greatness. For instance, we read in Job 40:15-16: "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the stays of his body." The word "behemoth" is actually plural but when applied to a singular, individual animal it signifies the chiefest and largest of beasts. Similarly, "elohim" when applied to a singular individual signifies the cheifest power or a great power. The word elohim is also used of singular, pagan gods such as dagon in 1 Samuel 5:7. It's meaning in regards to the one true elohim is that all the powers are embodied in Him and therefore He controls all the forces of creation.
So then you admit that there is no for sure evidence that Jesus is the Messiah according to his first coming. Thank you for admitting it. It would therefore be ridiculous for you to say that Jews are going to be in an eternal barbeque because your "messiah" accomplished nothing cutting off any chance of informed Jews believing in him.
First off, as already mentioned, the text in Daniel simply says that the Messiah is coming with the clouds. Second, Daniel says he saw someone "like" a son of man because from what Daniel could tell, the person he was seeing looked like a man.
Psalm 82 is not a prophecy. The only men (plural) who are called elohim in this Psalm are God's appointed judges and magistrates in verse 6.
How do I know the Messiah in Daniel 7:13-14 is simply a man? Because we are specifically told in verse 14 that he is given dominion. HaShem cannot be given dominion by anyone and to suggest so is blasphemy. And we are also told in Micah 5 that HaShem is the God of the Messiah. Do really expect me to believe that HaShem has a God?
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“Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."”
John 18:36 NASB
“And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."”
Mark 14:62 NASB
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But Jesus' conveniently invisible kingdom that he is artificially ruling is not proof of anything.
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On the actual earth, as it is written: "And his dominion shall be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth" (Zechariah 9:10).
Of course I do. We are specifically told in Isaiah 11 that during his (the Messiah's) day that God will regather all of the Israelite exiles back to the Holy Land. That didn't happen in the days of Jesus, so he's not the Messiah.
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That's what we're waiting for, as it written: "For the children of Israel shall be many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod or teraphim; afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto the LORD and to His goodness in the end of days." (Hosea 3:4-5)I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if your Messiah comes before Jesus returns.
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Steve Petersen
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If you are referring to this passage in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 98a) as a Second Temple source, you are wrong. Joshua b. Levi lived in the first half of the third century.
R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua b. Levi pointed out a contradiction. it is written, in its time [will the Messiah come], whilst it is also written, I [the Lord] will hasten it!33 — if they are worthy, I will hasten it: if not, [he will come] at the due time. R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass. King Shapur said to Samuel, 'Ye maintain that the Messiah will come upon an ass: I will rather send him a white horse of mine.'37 He replied, 'Have you a hundred-hued steed?'38
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