Being filled with the Holy Spirit vs tongues

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
Where does the bible say one receives the spirit the moment they believe? You find in the book of Acts people did not receive it the moment of belief.

That's exactly what happened at the house of Cornelius. While Peter was still speaking.

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
"Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you, your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." - Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, instructing them in all which I have taught you." - Matthew 28:19-20

Scripture and two thousand years of faithful Christian teaching supports my position. Which is why I am confident in it.

-CryptoLutheran

It seems that there really isn't a biblical case to be made for infant baptism. It developed at some point as part of church tradition through Roman Catholicism, as far as I can tell. (not sure when)

And perhaps more importantly, there isn't a biblical case to be made for salvation and an impartation of the Holy Spirit (Chrismation) through infant baptism. A decision is being made on the behalf of the baptized. The infant is not making a personal decision to follow Christ.

In the churches I have attended all my life, we dedicate infants and their parents to the Lord. And take responsibility to see after them as a church body. When the child reaches the age when they can make an informed decision, we encourage them to follow the Lord in baptism. We have a Summer church picnic at a nearby lake where we do public baptisms. I was struck by the testimony of a young lad that we baptized last Summer. We ask the one being baptized why they want to be baptized. This lad testified that since he had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with the evidence of speaking in tongues) that he wanted to follow with water baptism.

As I understand it, churches that baptize infants discourage rebaptism as an adult. I am familiar with situations where adults that found themselves involved with other churches were being directed to be rebaptized as adults (believer's baptism), much to the dismay and disapproval of the church that baptized them as an infant. An unfortunate cause of much family turmoil.

So, obviously there is much controversy surrounding this subject. I appreciate your point of view and the thoughtful and informative posts you have brought to this topic.

What are your thoughts on what I am stating here?

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
This is not true the promise of the Father is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles received the indwelling of the holy spirit at Pentecost. There is not two separate events. The scriptures plainly state they were filled with the holy ghost on the day of Pentecost. Jesus was telling them to receive the Holy Ghost. remember Thomas was not there. Do you think Thomas missed out on this indwelling then?

You seem to be saying that the salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are a single event. And I agree that they can be. But my position is that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event to salvation. Do you believe that none of the Apostles nor the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost was saved until the outpouring?

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
Where does the bible say one receives the spirit the moment they believe? You find in the book of Acts people did not receive it the moment of belief.

Scriptures below.

Belief leads to salvation.
By grace we have been saved through faith.
A person that is saved (by grace through faith) has the indwelling of Holy Spirit.
We follow the Lord in water baptism. Water baptism is an outward ceremony.
A ceremony is an outward sin of an inner reality. Without the inner reality,
the outward ceremony is meaningless to the one being baptized.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event to salvation and water baptism.
Belief always comes first. The other two baptisms can follow at any point.

And if someone was baptized as an infant, they could claim that as their baptism with no ill effect (to my knowledge). Meaning the inner reality is infinitely more important than the outward ceremony. (A point on which there is much controversy.)

Galatians 3:2, 5-6
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? … 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Romans 10:9-11
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Revelation 22:10-12 · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
Yes that is how you recieve the Holy Spirit, but receiving the Spirit is a tangible real supernatural occurrence and experience, not just a belief that it happened the moment you believe. Take a look at what happened the tbose in the book of Acts when they received the promise. They supernaturaly spoke in tongues. Same happens today.

But not all the time has it been reported as such in the Book of Acts. Simon and the Samaritans did not because they all spoke the same language in the area in Acts 8. At the end of Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch did not speak in tongues either.

When Paul was converted and had received water baptism, he did not speak in tongues; Acts 9:18-20

Do you want me to go on?

That is why Paul did not emphasize water baptism as a necessity for salvation. 1 Corinthians 1:14-21

That is why Paul says tongues were never to serve as a sign to believers, but to unbelievers. That means tongues was never to serve as a sign to a believer as to when he was saved. 1 Corinthians 14:22

That is why Jesus referred to the wind when one is born again; you don't know when it will happen unlike a natural birth, but He answered Nicodemus's question as to how and that is by believing in Him in John 3:9-18 . Do note that tongues was never mentioned.

That is why faith is the evidence of things not seen; Hebrews 11:1-2 whereby those saints have a good report. It is by faith alone, Hebrews 11:6 and not by seeking a sign is how we please God.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

The fact that a sinner believes in Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead is saved as promised. Tongues are not required.

Here is a question for you. What happens after a believer has that supernatural experience and get tongues which never comes with interpretation, inquires of you about how that the supernatural phenomenon is still coming over him and filling him again, making him fall backwards and stiff? What would you call that moment? Then explain why it still happens to some believers again and again still?

Revelation 22:10-12 · Feb 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Don't confuse "the promise of the Holy Spirit" with the indwelling. Two different things. Consider this. The Apostles had already received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost.

John 20:21-22
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

There is another event in Matthew 10:1-8 where even Judas Iscariot had the Holy Spirit for ministering outreach to the nation of Israel, even though he was not a believer. John 6:64-71

So the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit at our salvation is given by the Father when Jesus was no longer present with His disciples. Those 2 events we references before Pentecost was a temporary indwelling whereas the permanent indwelling in John 14:16-17 was to be given when Jesus was no longer present as it was to be sent by the Father in His name. John 14:25-26

So that is why I see the promise of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling as the same thing in John 14:16-17 even though the indwelling you are talking about was temporary in John 20:21-22 and the other event I had referred to in Matthew 10:1-8

The disciples were not officially saved until Pentecost.

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

Revelation 22:10-12 said:
… the Ethiopian eunuch did not speak in tongues either.

That's an interesting point. The Ethiopian eunuch "went on his way rejoicing." - vs 39
I would say that is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but not tongues.

Acts 8:36-39
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

Revelation 22:10-12 said:
There is another event in Matthew 10:1-8 where even Judas Iscariot had the Holy Spirit for ministering outreach to the nation of Israel, even though he was not a believer. John 6:64-71

So the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit at our salvation is given by the Father when Jesus was no longer present with His disciples. Those 2 events we references before Pentecost was a temporary indwelling whereas the permanent indwelling in John 14:16-17 was to be given when Jesus was no longer present as it was to be sent by the Father in His name. John 14:25-26

So that is why I see the promise of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling as the same thing in John 14:16-17 even though the indwelling you are talking about was temporary in John 20:21-22 and the other event I had referred to in Matthew 10:1-8

The disciples were not officially saved until Pentecost.

I would maintain that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a result of salvation, not the other way around. And salvation is a result of belief. We believe it, we receive it; salvation and the indwelling Spirit. Water baptism is a subsequent event, as is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

And ironically, all these things are difficult to prove conclusively from scripture. (heresy?) No, this used to drive me crazy. Because I thought I had it all figured out. And then I finally realized that there has to be some room left for faith. We have to trust, even when everything doesn't add up. I know that anyone that tells me that they have this all figured out is wrong, just as I am.

Revelation 22:10-12 · Feb 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's an interesting point. The Ethiopian eunuch "went on his way rejoicing." - vs 39
I would say that is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but not tongues.

Acts 8:36-39
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Well, I say all rejoicing is done with the Holy Spirit in us saying the same thing since He is sent to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and so how can He do that except thru us in worship?

I doubt we can rejoice and glorify the Son without the Holy Spirit in us joining in.

Revelation 22:10-12 · Feb 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I would maintain that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a result of salvation, not the other way around. And salvation is a result of belief. We believe it, we receive it; salvation and the indwelling Spirit. Water baptism is a subsequent event, as is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

And ironically, all these things are difficult to prove conclusively from scripture. (heresy?) No, this used to drive me crazy. Because I thought I had it all figured out. And then I finally realized that there has to be some room left for faith. We have to trust, even when everything doesn't add up. I know that anyone that tells me that they have this all figured out is wrong, just as I am.

Does this help?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

Revelation 22:10-12 said:
Well, I say all rejoicing is done with the Holy Spirit in us saying the same thing since He is sent to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and so how can He do that except thru us in worship?

I doubt we can rejoice and glorify the Son without the Holy Spirit in us joining in.

Right. That is why I say that those who were praising God in the house of Cornelius were manifesting the Holy Spirit. Unbelieving gentiles don't do that.

Saint Steven · Feb 2, 2019

Revelation 22:10-12 said:
Does this help?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Sure, if one wants to build their doctrine on one scripture.
Many fine religious cults were started that way. Does that help?

Revelation 22:10-12 · Feb 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Right. That is why I say that those who were praising God in the house of Cornelius were manifesting the Holy Spirit. Unbelieving gentiles don't do that.

Before salvation? No. Afterwards, yeah.

Jews still worship the God of Israel but that is not being manifested by the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

I am not sure you are meaning this or not, but just in case...

God the Father is the One that draws men unto the Son; John 6:44 The Father is the One that reveals the Son even to babes; Matthew 11:25-27 The Father is the One that gives sinners to the Son to save; John 6:37-40

The Holy Spirit is in the believers for why the Holy Spirit does not need to be in any place as this is a common misconception that the Holy Spirit has to be around the unbeliever to draw him or to convict him when He is in the believers speaking to him.

I would have to say for us to test the spirits is by knowing the Holy Spirit is in us and whatever is felt outside of us cannot be the Holy Spirit because that is the spirit of the antichrist's M.O. now.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 places where the Holy Spirit is as our bodies the temple of the Holy Spirit.

If we blur the line of discernment in testing the spirits, then we can be seduced by these visitations and suffer a thief to break thru and fall by them.

So there is no reason for the Holy Spirit to be prayed for to be sent to the area to convict sinners when He is in us. The promise of the Holy Spirit will only be sent when the sinner comes to & believes in Jesus Christ.

So there are a lot of sinners seeking God and some go about it religiously, but they do not have the Holy Spirit until they are saved by learning of Jesus in order to believe in Him. Matthew 11:28-30

Revelation 22:10-12 · Feb 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Sure, if one wants to build their doctrine on one scripture.
Many fine religious cults were started that way. Does that help?

Seeing how that reference is a rebuttal for how believers will fall away from the faith, then that is a universal truth, so no. That does not help.

The Book of Acts is Luke telling the history of the early church. If one wonders if they got the correct teaching or doctrine from the Book of Acts, it will not go against what is written in the epistles. If it does, then they are reading the Book of Acts wrong and without His discernment. I had addressed New Birth's list of references for which he is in denial of by citing the epistles was after they were saved. Hardly. Ephesians 1:11-15 is Paul reminding believers when they had received the promise of the Spirit and how.

Paul's conversion/salvation happened without him speaking in tongues.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Paul testified that preaching the gospel for those to hear and believe is how faith come and are saved. Romans 10:8-17

That is why Paul did not preach water baptism as a necessity for salvation. 1 Corinthians 1:14-21

That is why Paul preached that tongues is not to serve as a sign to believers that they are saved; 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

So you can know the truth for sure, brother. Go before that throne of grace, pray normally to Jesus Christ, and trust Him to lead you to the answers you seek.

As it is, thanks to Him, I can see how modern day tongue speakers are reading the Book of Acts wrong and even 1 Corinthians 14 for how they want to read tongues for private use in between the lines.

YeshuaFan · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
any time someone gets the Holy Ghost they speak in other tongues without exception. even today

Their are no gifts of tongues as displayed in Acts for today, so that would mean that none of us here who do not speak ion tongues are saved, as per you!

YeshuaFan · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
I think the better question would be, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? I have just like in the bible.

That was a one time special event, as ALL who thrust in Jesus now are saved and receive the Holy Spirit right then and there, regardless of speaking in tongues or not!
One cannot even be a Christian without the Holy Spirit sealing them, and ALL who trust in Christ have Him, period!

YeshuaFan · Feb 2, 2019

New Birth said:
What did Jesus say? "they shall speak with tongues", have you?

Not a requirement!

YeshuaFan · Feb 2, 2019

Revelation 22:10-12 said:
Seeing how that reference is a rebuttal for how believers will fall away from the faith, then that is a universal truth, so no. That does not help.

The Book of Acts is Luke telling the history of the early church. If one wonders if they got the correct teaching or doctrine from the Book of Acts, it will not go against what is written in the epistles. If it does, then they are reading the Book of Acts wrong and without His discernment. I had addressed New Birth's list of references for which he is in denial of by citing the epistles was after they were saved. Hardly. Ephesians 1:11-15 is Paul reminding believers when they had received the promise of the Spirit and how.

Paul's conversion/salvation happened without him speaking in tongues.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Paul testified that preaching the gospel for those to hear and believe is how faith come and are saved. Romans 10:8-17

That is why Paul did not preach water baptism as a necessity for salvation. 1 Corinthians 1:14-21

That is why Paul preached that tongues is not to serve as a sign to believers that they are saved; 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

So you can know the truth for sure, brother. Go before that throne of grace, pray normally to Jesus Christ, and trust Him to lead you to the answers you seek.

As it is, thanks to Him, I can see how modern day tongue speakers are reading the Book of Acts wrong and even 1 Corinthians 14 for how they want to read tongues for private use in between the lines.

Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit then, and it did not say " and spoke forth in tongues"

YeshuaFan · Feb 2, 2019

Revelation 22:10-12 said:
Paul could not say what he has said if everybody has spoken in tongues at one time or another.

Well, what you preach is condemning every believer as not having the Holy Spirit because they do not speak in tongues whether you say that outright or not, you are preaching it. I have to call it heresy, brother, for the babes in Christ's sake. It is not a difference of an opinion we are talking about here.

He would hold to the tongues as being a sign on one being Baptized in the Holy Spirit, but there is NO command for any to seek that, as ALL saved are baptized by Spirit into the Body of Christ at conversion, regardless of any tongues or not!

YeshuaFan · Feb 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Wow. "just"???
The question isn't divisive, but your answer sure is. (do you even know what divisive means?)

You are claiming that "everyone must have the Holy Ghost just like they had in the book of Acts to be saved." Meaning, if they don't speak in tongues they aren't saved. ????? And you don't see that as divisive? Wow. Seriously?

That would be a heresy view of salvation, as he is adding to the gospel something God never did as a requirement for a sinner to get saved!

Being filled with the Holy Spirit vs tongues

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