Democrats try to cut ‘so help me God’ from committee witness oath,

SayaOtonashi · Jan 31, 2019

Do you guys think they should remove it? I mean historical there was no so help me God. The reason why I said under God is because the pledge of allegation also had under god added to it

Shiloh Raven · Jan 31, 2019

Ringo84 said:
Would the exclusion of the phrase change anything about the country?
Ringo

Any Democrats who have the gull to challenge these Christians from carrying on with their agendas to push their preferred Christian beliefs and ideologies are accused of being evil and communist. And these Democrats are accused of being you know what bent on destroying America and/or accused of hating America. There are also a few outcries of being persecuted for their Christian faith too.

Shiloh Raven said:
Well, if certain Republicans can't impose their Christian beliefs into America's federal government, then that might be seen as problem to said Christians. They seem to be under the impression that America is a Christian nation and that this nation was founded on Christian principles. Many right wing Christians have been pushing their Christian faith in this country for so long that these Christians today must feel entitled to continue pushing their Christian ideologies in the federal government.

LovebirdsFlying · Jan 31, 2019

Didn't Jesus tell us (and I'm not referring to profanity) not to swear?

Matthew 5:34-37. Repeated in James 5:12.

Let your "yes" be "yes," and your "no" be "no." Anything added to that is forbidden in Scripture. So it wouldn't actually be out of line to take "so help me God" out of there.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Ringo84 said:
Would the exclusion of the phrase change anything about the country?
Ringo

If they don’t mean the words they speak they probably should not say them.

I was opining on how our founding culture viewed oaths invoking God.

When I took my oath for Comissioning it starts with the option of “I do solemnly swear or affirm.” The affirm was added because many Christians cited “let your yes be yes and no be no”

I gather Jesus was telling His audience that there is already a commandment to be truthful and not bear false witness, why swear and cause condemnation on us.

Expanded passage:

Matthew 5: BSB

33Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36Nor should you swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one. (BSB)

Whereas “so help me God” would be a promise not to bear false witness (lie).

False witnesses in the time of Jesus were punished according to the offense the defendant was accused of.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Shiloh Raven said:
They seem to be under the impression that America is a Christian nation and that this nation was founded on Christian principles.

Well the US founding was in a Christian society. And like all fallen humanity subject to the bondage of the will (Romans 6).

Shiloh Raven · Jan 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
Well the US founding was in a Christian society. And like all fallen humanity subject to the bondage of the will (Romans 6).

You and I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on the assumption or belief that America's founding was in a Christian society, unless one chooses to ignore that this alleged Christian utopia didn't include minority equality until 188 years (1776-1964) after this nation was founded.

Ringo84 · Jan 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
If they don’t mean the words they speak they probably should not say them.

I was opining on how our founding culture viewed oaths invoking God.

When I took my oath for Comissioning it starts with the option of “I do solemnly swear or affirm.” The affirm was added because many Christians cited “let your yes be yes and no be no”

I gather Jesus was telling His audience that there is already a commandment to be truthful and not bear false witness, why swear and cause condemnation on us.

Expanded passage:

Matthew 5: BSB

33Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36Nor should you swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one. (BSB)

Whereas “so help me God” would be a promise not to bear false witness (lie).

False witnesses in the time of Jesus were punished according to the offense the defendant was accused of.

If it's as simple as just not saying the words, then what point is there in having them? Will it plunge us into the Mirror Universe where everyone has goatees if they're taken out?
Ringo

GingerBeer · Jan 31, 2019

Ringo84 said:
Good. "Under God" should be the next to go.
Ringo

Yes, a good idea.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Shiloh Raven said:
Well, if certain Republicans can't impose their Christian beliefs into America's federal government, then that might be seen as problem to said Christians. They seem to be under the impression that America is a Christian nation and that this nation was founded on Christian principles. Many right wing Christians have been pushing their Christian faith in this country for so long that these Christians today must feel entitled to continue pushing their Christian ideologies in the federal government.

There is that free exercise of religion deal.

But the subject at hand is swearing in witnesses. “So help me God” comes from our founding.

If anything it is a tradition stemming from that in the times of the founders the society by vast majority hailed from Trinitarian Christian churches. Worshiping God, faith and family were central to everyday life.

Ringo84 · Jan 31, 2019

So help me God - Wikipedia

A few useful points here:

1. "No religious test for office" (which includes swearing to a god).
2. No law requires swearing on a Bible or "so help me God".
Ringo

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Yes, a good idea.

“Under God” is actually from the Pledge of Alligence.

Used by the Union during the Civil War, expanded use in 1892 and adopted by Congress in 1942.

“Under God” was added in 1954.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Ringo84 said:
So help me God - Wikipedia

A few useful points here:

1. "No religious test for office" (which includes swearing to a god).
2. No law requires swearing on a Bible or "so help me God".
Ringo

Absolutely right. No law.

I believe the dust up is over the “so help me God” elimination was one of their first agenda items.

Happening in a bad news week for Democrats advocating the extreme expansion of abortion to dilation.

Shiloh Raven · Jan 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
There is that free exercise of religion deal.

But the subject at hand is swearing in witnesses. “So help me God” comes from our founding.

If anything it is a tradition stemming from that in the times of the founders the society by vast majority hailed from Trinitarian Christian churches. Worshiping God, faith and family were central to everyday life.

Denying Native Americans religious freedom was also part of everyday life in America for 202 years. Denying minorities civil rights and equality to white people was also part of everyday life in America for 188 years. Slavery was also a part of everyday life in America for 89 years. Invoking Christian principles in light of America's long and well established history rooted in racism against minorities only further proves the fact that America was not faithful to its own claims of freedom, liberty and justice for all at its own inception or faithful to its own declaration that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It took this alleged Christian nation 188 years to finally give minorities those rights.

Ringo84 · Jan 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
Absolutely right. No law.

I believe the dust up is over the “so help me God” elimination was one of their first agenda items.

Happening in a bad news week for Democrats advocating the extreme expansion of abortion to dilation.

No law....which means that whether or not they remove the phrase will change absolutely nothing about the country or the faith/trustworthiness of someone being sworn in. I truly don't understand why some Christians get so obsessed with words.
Ringo

Danielwright2311 · Jan 31, 2019

No matter what the world does, you do not follow it.

the U.S. House of Representatives is for this world and the evil things of it, all congress is, its for the people, of the people, the evil worldly people.

In these end times it does not matter what any government does or does not.

What matters is if you follow it.

If we live for God and have a real close loving relationship to God then we will hate the world as it is. We forgive the people, and love them as a people, but we hate the way its run and the sins it loves.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Shiloh Raven said:
You and I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on the assumption or belief that America's founding was in a Christian society, unless one chooses to ignore that this alleged Christian utopia didn't include minority equality until 188 years (1776-1964) after this nation was founded.

I think I qualified my statement with Romans 6 and the bondage of the will. I’ll have a theology thread on that subject once I’m finished with my expository. I’ll ping you.

Colonial America was steeped in the Christian faith. The majority of Americans did not own slaves and did not kill Native Americans.

So for the average Joe and Jane they lived their lives with survival in mind, loving God and if having a regenerated heart from God strived to serve and obey Him. Which as servants to Christ were to be beacons of His Light to shine on the world. Jesus left His disciples with the Command of “Love one another as I have Loved you.”

Jesus died for us sacrificing Himself for us and rising from the dead breaking our chains of bondage to sin and death. To own other human beings made in the image and according to the likeness of God (Imago Dei) is not loving others as He loved us. Murdering your neighbor to take their land is not loving others as He loved us.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

I have a summary or maxim from the New Testament. “We do (act) in accordance to what or Who we believe/trust in.”

Such would apply to not only Colonial America and ensuing years, decades and centuries later, but to all societies and individuals.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Ringo84 said:
If it's as simple as just not saying the words, then what point is there in having them? Will it plunge us into the Mirror Universe where everyone has goatees if they're taken out?
Ringo

Great episode.

redleghunter · Jan 31, 2019

Ringo84 said:
No law....which means that whether or not they remove the phrase will change absolutely nothing about the country or the faith/trustworthiness of someone being sworn in. I truly don't understand why some Christians get so obsessed with words.
Ringo

You mean it won’t change how people already lie to Congress and how members of Congress swearing in people are liars?

GingerBeer · Feb 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
“Under God” is actually from the Pledge of Alligence.

Used by the Union during the Civil War, expanded use in 1892 and adopted by Congress in 1942.

“Under God” was added in 1954.

Best to get rid of it from worldly flag worshipping pledges.

Ringo84 · Feb 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
View attachment 250445
Great episode.

I have to hand it to you, red: you and I don't see eye to eye on too many things, but you seem to have a sense of humor and take things in stride.

Yeah, that episode is one of my favorites!
Ringo

Democrats try to cut ‘so help me God’ from committee witness oath,

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