predestined

zoidar said:

Reveal? Meaningly, what the scriptures say seeing them with a specific pair of theological glasses.

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No, reading them and having to see what they actually say. Sometimes this requires digging deep into the timeframe the writings occurred, the culture and most especially the language.

zoidar said:

Why? Because how we understand the Bible depends on glasses.

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Take the glasses off and read it.

redleghunter said:

Paul had a different view:

1 Timothy 1: NASB

8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

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Very wonderful. That from Timothy it's another great passage we can rely on to repeat the most basic truth I (we) know:

Christ came into the world to save sinners.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

If there's anything we know, we must know that.

redleghunter said:

Paul had a different view:

1 Timothy 1: NASB

8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

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You may have missed it, but from the post I was writing to you on this before (355), on precisely this --

'It's not perfection of sinlessness that God seems to want before we are redeemed, but rather instead it's a desire to do right (regardless of it being inconstant and very imperfect!). He doesn't require we never stumble/do wrong, but instead that we repent (David being a good example of honestly confessing sin and repenting well).'

See? At risk of being repetitive, Paul was acceptable because he feared God and wanted to do what is right, not because he did what is right already!

redleghunter said:

No, reading them and having to see what they actually say. Sometimes this requires digging deep into the timeframe the writings occurred, the culture and most especially the language.

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Sorry, still glasses. What they actually say will still be a matter of opinion.

redleghunter said:

Take the glasses off and read it.

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I believe it's good to read a Bible text trying to clear your head of theology and see what is your first and natural understanding of it. Hard to do though, often theology creeps in.

Halbhh said:

You may have missed it, but from the post I was writing to you on this before (355), on precisely this --

'It's not perfection of sinlessness that God seems to want before we are redeemed, but rather instead it's a desire to do right (regardless of it being inconstant and very imperfect!). He doesn't require we never stumble/do wrong, but instead that we repent (David being a good example of honestly confessing sin and repenting well).'

See? At risk of being repetitive, Paul was acceptable because he feared God and wanted to do what is right, not because he did what is right already!

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Actually a very good post. Thank you!

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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The real question is how are you going to let this information influence your relationship with God? Someone who is saved will go, "You know where I will end up, but I will pursue You regardless as You are the way and the truth and the life."

He knows what you'll do with your free will, but He's not taking it away from you. What you do with it is still your choice, and if you let that knowledge of predestination give you a reason to indulge in sin then you aren't saved.

redleghunter said:

Take the glasses off and read it.

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Reading naturally without "theological glasses", what does this passage tell you?

Matt 18
12"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Halbhh said:

You may have missed it, but from the post I was writing to you on this before (355), on precisely this --

'It's not perfection of sinlessness that God seems to want before we are redeemed, but rather instead it's a desire to do right (regardless of it being inconstant and very imperfect!). He doesn't require we never stumble/do wrong, but instead that we repent (David being a good example of honestly confessing sin and repenting well).'

See? At risk of being repetitive, Paul was acceptable because he feared God and wanted to do what is right, not because he did what is right already!

Click to expand...

Yes this is clear now to me what you are saying. However, I would be a the risk of being pedantic say the original design (Adam and Eve) was for mankind to be loving and obedient. I believe the vast majority of humankind in history had programmed in them even after the fall the notion of doing good and evil (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). We are 'children' of that tree.

Yet again, God chooses the upright and those on hate filled benders. For none are righteous, none.

Romans 3: NASB

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

That is everyone's state before a Holy God. Condemned in needing of Christ Jesus for salvation. Regardless what we may think we have to offer, it is nothing that convinces a Holy God that we merit any consideration for election. There is no 'inner goodness' in which God decides to draw us to Him.

Of course as you know the good news is God provided the remedy to our condemned state and it all comes from Jesus Christ by Grace (unmerited a gift)

Continuing Romans 3:

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

zoidar said:

Reading naturally without "theological glasses", what does this passage tell you?

Matt 18
12"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

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Verse 14 is your answer.

In Luke 15 we have expanded information. Jesus is addressing the grumbling of the Pharisees that He dined with tax collectors and sinners:

Luke 15:
1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

3So He told them this parable, saying, 4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6“And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

redleghunter said:

Yes this is clear now to me what you are saying. However, I would be a the risk of being pedantic say the original design (Adam and Eve) was for mankind to be loving and obedient. I believe the vast majority of humankind in history had programmed in them even after the fall the notion of doing good and evil (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). We are 'children' of that tree.

Yet again, God chooses the upright and those on hate filled benders. For none are righteous, none.

Romans 3: NASB

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

That is everyone's state before a Holy God. Condemned in needing of Christ Jesus for salvation. Regardless what we may think we have to offer, it is nothing that convinces a Holy God that we merit any consideration for election. There is no 'inner goodness' in which God decides to draw us to Him.

Of course as you know the good news is God provided the remedy to our condemned state and it all comes from Jesus Christ by Grace (unmerited a gift)

Continuing Romans 3:

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

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Entirely true...and...'God resists the proud'.
As Christ said in Matthew 18.

It's not righteousness that makes us acceptible for redeeming but things like humble repentance (fearing God), being humble-wanting to do what is right as best I (we) can tell from the various scriptures.

redleghunter said:

Verse 14 is your answer.

In Luke 15 we have expanded information. Jesus is addressing the grumbling of the Pharisees that He dined with tax collectors and sinners:

Luke 15:
1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

3So He told them this parable, saying, 4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6“And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

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Now you are doing exactly what you told me not to do. Instead of reading what Matt 18:13 says you ignore it and instead put on your glasses and go to Luke 15, because v. 13 doesn't fit your theology. In Matt 18:14 you see the will of the man for his sheep, in vers 13 you see the outcome of the man's search for his sheep, he may or may not find it. WHEN (Luke 15:5) he finds his sheep the joy is so great because that sheep he loves so much could have been forever lost (Matt 18:13).

zoidar said:

Now you are doing exactly what you told me not to do. Instead of reading what Matt 18:13 says you ignore it and instead put on your glasses and go to Luke 15, because v. 13 doesn't fit your theology. In Matt 18:14 you see the will of the man for his sheep, in vers 13 you see the outcome of the man's search for his sheep, he may or may not find it. WHEN (Luke 15:5) he finds his sheep the joy is so great because that sheep he loves so much could have been forever lost (Matt 18:13).

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There’s a great book two part series called the Bible Expositor Handbook. Which can help.

Matthew 18 parable of the lost sheep and Luke 15 same parable are parallel passages.

You presented Matthew 18 and focused on what you thought was some loophole.

If we have questions on a passage then we look for a parallel passage to see if it provides more clarity. This is part of the Bible interprets the Bible.

By me quoting the Luke 15 passage, I stayed with the Scriptures and also with the same parable in a parallel passage.

zoidar said:

In Matt 18:14 you see the will of the man for his sheep, in vers 13 you see the outcome of the man's search for his sheep, he may or may not find it.

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May or may not is not an outcome.

Therefore it was you who tried to establish one verse in a parable about rescuing sinners as actually support for losing salvation. That is the very example of eisegesis leading with the idea and finding something to fit the idea.

redleghunter said:

This is what I'm saying:

“Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’” (Isaiah 46:9-10)

There is nothing I have done (past), nor now doing (present) nor will do (future) that is hidden from God.

That's a huge difference than saying I am a cosmic robot.

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I totally agree with the quote, because that is exactly what He will do, but it doesn't disprove that the future actually exists and is knowable. It just shows that God will do everything He has planned for the future. He knows what the beginning was, and He knows what the end will be because no matter what happens, the end will turn out how He has planned it.

Oscarr said:

I totally agree with the quote, because that is exactly what He will do, but it doesn't disprove that the future actually exists and is knowable. It just shows that God will do everything He has planned for the future. He knows what the beginning was, and He knows what the end will be because no matter what happens, the end will turn out how He has planned it.

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He is the Alpha and the Omega.

I can see your point that it is not Jules Vern theatre.

However, as Uncreated Creator He does know what will unfold.

redleghunter said:

He is the Alpha and the Omega.

I can see your point that it is not Jules Vern theatre.

However, as Uncreated Creator He does know what will unfold.

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Yes, because He has planned it and will work to fulfill what He has planned.
What I'm reacting against is this fatalistic (not necessarily yours) idea that God knows what is going to happen so why bother to pray passionately for God to change things. Why bother to pray for a friend's or loved one's conversion when God knows whether he or she is going to be converted or not? This "what will be, will be" approach just fostered spiritual laziness. We might as well snore off on the couch and let God do what He wants because He knows what will happen anyway.

Frankly, I think that is a boring type of religiosity. I would rather work with God who can change the future through prayer and fellowship with Him. If He knows that He is going to give me what I want, then why bother asking Him for it? I might as well passively wait until to comes to me on the silver platter from God.

But somehow, in reality, things don't work that way. In my reading of Scripture, the God of the Bible changes His mind, and the way He fulfills His plans in response to whether people are obedient or faithful to Him, or not. A God who knows the future would not behave like that.

The God of the Bible is the only God we know about, and from His nature and character as shown in the Bible, there is no indication that He knows every detail of what is going to happen in the future.

redleghunter said:

There’s a great book two part series called the Bible Expositor Handbook. Which can help.

Matthew 18 parable of the lost sheep and Luke 15 same parable are parallel passages.

You presented Matthew 18 and focused on what you thought was some loophole.

If we have questions on a passage then we look for a parallel passage to see if it provides more clarity. This is part of the Bible interprets the Bible.

By me quoting the Luke 15 passage, I stayed with the Scriptures and also with the same parable in a parallel passage.

Click to expand...

What you basically is saying is that the IF in Matt 18:13 isn't to be read as an IF, but as a WHEN. Not going to your theology, in what way is Matt 18:13 unclear?

zoidar said:

What you basically is saying is that the IF in Matt 18:13 isn't to be read as an IF, but as a WHEN. Not going to your theology, in what way is Matt 18:13 unclear?

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no.

redleghunter said:

no.

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...

Oscarr said:

Yes, because He has planned it and will work to fulfill what He has planned.
What I'm reacting against is this fatalistic (not necessarily yours) idea that God knows what is going to happen so why bother to pray passionately for God to change things. Why bother to pray for a friend's or loved one's conversion when God knows whether he or she is going to be converted or not? This "what will be, will be" approach just fostered spiritual laziness. We might as well snore off on the couch and let God do what He wants because He knows what will happen anyway.

Frankly, I think that is a boring type of religiosity. I would rather work with God who can change the future through prayer and fellowship with Him. If He knows that He is going to give me what I want, then why bother asking Him for it? I might as well passively wait until to comes to me on the silver platter from God.

But somehow, in reality, things don't work that way. In my reading of Scripture, the God of the Bible changes His mind, and the way He fulfills His plans in response to whether people are obedient or faithful to Him, or not. A God who knows the future would not behave like that.

The God of the Bible is the only God we know about, and from His nature and character as shown in the Bible, there is no indication that He knows every detail of what is going to happen in the future.

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That's helpful, but I've learned to always be sure when I point out that God appears to have designed us to be unpredictable in some ways, that even though I've said it already over and over, to immediately repeat that God is able to nevertheless fulfill His plans (as you've said at the beginning of this post) regardless of what we do. I mean that I've gotten cautious to write more than just one paragraph even about how God has given us a genuine free will (actually meaning some things are not known ahead of time), without adding very quickly yet again (repetitively) another instance of "But He can still accomplish His plans regardless" and things like "What He has decided to cause to happen we can know will happen" and other such reassuring repetitions, so that those that more need to feel extra reassurance that ultimately He is in control of ultimate outcomes can feel reassured, and then better hear the reality that some real choices really are up to us, about whether to focus on Christ, whether to confess and repent after we stumble (that is, whether to heed to urge from the Spirit to turn from our sin).... So I don't even want to write 2 paragraphs about unpredictability or free will now without giving that repetitive confirmation of that other side of it. Else someone will ask me: "you mean God can't know the future" (as if I suggested He knows absolutely nothing even of His own plans!?) or some such, because I've written too long without repeating those.