Is Eschatology based on the Book of Enoch like a "Flat Earth"?

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yeshuasavedme

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I don’t accept the book of Enoch as scripture. I don’t think we need it to understand the scriptures.

And in regards to the flat earth, you don’t even need the book of Enoch to make a case that the earth is flat. You can use the Bible to do that.

The Bible teaches that the universe is centered around the earth.

So-called “science” teaches that the universe is centered around the sun. Who are you gonna believe?
The earth is not flat, not in creation, nor in the Book of Enoch, nor in the rest of the Bible.
The Hebrew word for world transliterated to English is "tebel". Tebel translated to English is "globe".
The world is a globe, and the heavens rotate about it from day 1 of creation, for God called "light" to "Be", out of the darkness, and God divided them, making evenings and mornings out of the" rotating around the earth heavens" from day 1 of creation week.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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No. In fact the last section "watchers" was most likely written in the early first century ad.
Well, you haven't done your research on the facts. The DSS copies of the books of Enoch date back to at least the third century BC. That's as old or older than any copies we have of any of the accepted books of the Bible by any of the differing denominations.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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...
Psalm 104:5
You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,

Earth has ends....
Reading Enoch, one becomes a lot more informed on how God has set and ordered and runs His creation.
The ends of the earth are the 4 directions.The pillars of the earth are the electro magnetic forces that keep the earth in its fixed place.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The book is included by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church...
Is there any evidence of this book before the 2nd century BC?


.

Yes.
You can research it for yourself and see.
The DSS copies of Enoch’s writings date to 3rd century BC. Those are just copies of copies. In the DSS Manuscript dubbed “The Genesis Apocryphon”, Abraham writes that he taught wisdom, values and truth to the wise men of pharaoh by reading to them from the book of Enoch. The Egyptians also then worshipped the Truth, God the “Amen”, but they corrupted His image -as All men do, over time, as Paul also noted in Romans 1.
God promises the “Egyptians will return to Him”....look it up. Jesus also plainly states in Revelation 2 that He IS the AMEN! He is the Truth, God the Word, whom Enoch wrote of...

Hannah’s prayer of praise when she was promised a son is taken right out of Enoch.

Job was well versed in Enoch, and knew His Redeemer lived and though his flesh perish, yet in His own flesh he would see with his own eyes his Redeemer stand on the earth in “the last Day”. Job understood His Redeemer was the Messiah, God, who would come and resurrect his flesh, as Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, wrote.
 
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Biblewriter

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Yes.
You can research it for yourself and see.
The DSS copies of Enoch’s writings date to 3rd century BC. Those are just copies of copies. In the DSS Manuscript dubbed “The Genesis Apocryphon”, Abraham writes that he taught wisdom, values and truth to the wise men of pharaoh by reading to them from the book of Enoch. The Egyptians also then worshipped the Truth, God the “Amen”, but they corrupted His image -as All men do, over time, as Paul also noted in Romans 1.
God promises the “Egyptians will return to Him”....look it up. Jesus also plainly states in Revelation 2 that He IS the AMEN! He is the Truth, God the Word, whom Enoch wrote of...

Hannah’s prayer of praise when she was promised a son is taken right out of Enoch.

Job was well versed in Enoch, and knew His Redeemer lived and though his flesh perish, yet in His own flesh he would see with his own eyes his Redeemer stand on the earth in “the last Day”. Job understood His Redeemer was the Messiah, God, who would come and resurrect his flesh, as Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, wrote.
This omits the question of whether the few scraps of the Dead Sea Scrolls that match "The Book of Enoch" are fragments of "the book of Enoch" or the book now called "The Book of Enoch" was pieced together, at least in part, from the source material for these few scraps.

As an example "The Genesis Apocryphon is also called "The Book of Lamech," not "the Book of Enoch."

Again, when the early Christians finally agreed upon "the canon," they recognized the original "Book of Enoch" as scripture, but omitted it from the canon because, even at that very early time, they felt that they did not have even one reliable copy of that original book.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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This omits the question of whether the few scraps of the Dead Sea Scrolls that match "The Book of Enoch" are fragments of "the book of Enoch" or the book now called "The Book of Enoch" was pieced together, at least in part, from the source material for these few scraps.
As an example "The Genesis Apocryphon is also called "The Book of Lamech," not "the Book of Enoch."
...
Hi Biblewriter.
The Geneses Apocryphon is not called "the book of Lamech"...where did you get that? At any rate, it is named by the modern finders, not by the Essenes=the sons of Zedek. It is compiled of copies of the writings of many of the patriarchal fathers, their very own writings...
In a section of it there is a copy of that which was written by Abraham, himself, where he tells the story of the dream he had going into Egypt and why he asked Sarai to say she was his sister....at the end of the time Sarai was with the Pharaoh, when the wise men of Pharaoh returned her to Abram, they asked him to teach them wisdom, values, and Truth, and so he read to them from the book of Enoch....
And why do you call it"a few scraps" when you have less "scraps" of many of the books of the Bible you accept? Isaiah of the DSS is pretty intact, but you just do not have copies of the accepted canon from that long ago, and as to the original books of anything we have in the "canon" of all denominations, there are none -no, not one.
Enoch has fragments from over thirty different copies in the DSS, which proves they srudied it as Scripture.
They also had the Book of Giants, and said Enoch wrote it, and so on and so forth...
The copies of Enoch we have have come from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which never cast aside Enoch and the Jews of Ethiopia had brought it with them from the first dispersion, I think it is.
The DSS fragments of copies of Enoch totally agrees with the Ethiopian Enoch, as ISaiah also does...

Also, I don't know where you got your information of the early Chrisitans rejecting Enoch for the reason you state. There is no ancient writing that proves that, but rather they did believe it was Scripture -Even Barnabas and many others wrote of it as established truth, and Scripture. I think you have been shown that by others on here, before, like SummaScriptura, who wrote a book on it being the same today as they had then....with many proofs.

The argument over it did not come until the Roman Church decided to tell men what to think and read....you know that, and that was in the third century, wasn't it? That's a longer period of time for the early Church scholars to have used and taught from Enoch than the US has been a nation.

The Ethiopians were never under Rome, nor were the sons of Zadok, the Essenes, ever under the Pharisees of Jerusalem, which Pharisees, themselves, cast out Enoch after Jesus rose from the dead....They did it to keep the Jews under them from the truth of the Messiah, for the same reason they killed Jesus.
 
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FredVB

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I will say for clarity I am a Christian practicing a vegan way with my choices. I believe the Bible, I didn't need the Book of Enoch (any of the various ones known) for this. But if you do believe what you have for the Book of Enoch for authority to you, you should not have meat from animals either. The Book of Enoch clearly states that the eating of flesh was taught by the fallen angels. So according to that, having meat from animals is only from an ungodly source. Without getting that meat, they would not be getting milk from the animals either.
 
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Jipsah

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I don’t accept the book of Enoch as scripture. I don’t think we need it to understand the scriptures.
Agreed.

And in regards to the flat earth, you don’t even need the book of Enoch to make a case that the earth is flat. You can use the Bible to do that. The Bible teaches that the universe is centered around the earth.
From the perspective of an earth-bound observer, it is. And we still talk that way, don't we? We say "the sun came up", and not "the earth rotated to the point at which the sun becomes visible above the horizon'. That doesn't mean that we're teaching that the sun moves around the earth, because with very few exceptions, no one does. But that's the way we all talk.

So-called “science” teaches that the universe is centered around the sun. Who are you gonna believe?
Lessee, science observes God's creation and says "here's how it works", because they see that's how it works. You make the same observations and you'll reach the same conclusions. If man's interpretation of God's words differs from God's works themselves, who are you gonna believe?
 
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Jipsah

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Yes, sun moon stars all rotating about a fixed stationary earth, and is the best model to fit what the scriptures say.
This also agrees with all early cosmologies of many cultures and nations.
It just happens not to be true.
 
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Jipsah

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Book of Enoch like many other books were removed because people can't stand the truth
Enoch shouldn't have bothered anyone on that basis, since large portions, the Book of the Courses of the Heavenly Luminaries, for instance, are pure fiction.

Book of Enoch is quoted by Jesus
I'll accept the parts He quoted.

it's valid
Except for the parts that are simply untrue, which are many.

earth is actually flat
Simple observation proves otherwise.

you can prove it with simple math
Baloney.
 
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Jipsah

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Maybe just put flat earth believers onto a boat and let them go prove it :) I could believe that documentation.
Easier than that. Gather them on a beach, then have them watch a ship, the taller the better, sail way over the horizon, disappearing from the waterline up. When they say it's just perspective and that you could still see the whole thing with a telescope, hand 'em one and let 'em try it again. If you have a big enough scope, they may get tired of watching boats go over the horizon the same way, but probably not. They'll just claim you gave 'em trick telescopes.

The one I always find hilarious is their thing about "why don't roads follow the curvature of the earth?" They've apparently never seen a road going up and over hills, down through valleys, under rivers through tunnels, around obstacles, doing 360 degree loops, etc. "Curvature of the earth" my aunt Myrtle!
 
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Jipsah

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So the germane question is, does science overrule the scriptures or is science in conflict with Scripture?
False dichotomy. Science is talking the observable characteristics of God's creation. Scripture is primarily talking about God's creation, and simply speaks of it as every earth-bound observer has always talked about it, from that time to this. If you try to use the Bible as an engineering tome you're bound to come to grief. That was never its purpose.
 
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Jipsah

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1. Ships disappear over the horizon.
Never been to the beach?

. If you are in Chicago, you should be able to see the Rocky Mountains.
If the earth is flat, you should be to see the Rockies. OK, use an 8-inch reflector scope if you need it.

3. Some Greek dude measured shadows thousands of years ago.
He did, and a great many people have done so over the centuries. The numbers still hold true.

If there is any confusion on these answers, do some research as to why that is the case to become more knowledgeable on the subject.
Here's one fer ya: If I'm trying to talk to Australia with a directional antenna, and encounter interference, I can often turn my antenna 180 degrees and get a clear path. Makes sense in a spherical earth, none at all in a pie pan earth. What obtaineth?
 
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Jipsah

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The research has been done, and it invalidates your answer.
Did it myself. Big two master sailing away. Hull below the horizon, grab the 20x40 binocs, hull still below the horizon. With the masthead only still above, it's still masthead with and without the glasses.
 
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Jipsah

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with my 13.1" Dobsonian reflector and a crappy cell phone camera, I was able to photograph the moon and prove just looking at the shadows, that the moon is a ball.
A 13.1" Dob? I hate you. <Laugh>
 
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SeventyOne

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Never been to the beach?


If the earth is flat, you should be to see the Rockies. OK, use an 8-inch reflector scope if you need it.

He did, and a great many people have done so over the centuries. The numbers still hold true.

Here's one fer ya: If I'm trying to talk to Australia with a directional antenna, and encounter interference, I can often turn my antenna 180 degrees and get a clear path. Makes sense in a spherical earth, none at all in a pie pan earth. What obtaineth?

I've been reading your responses. It's a good thing for my sanity that I stopped giving a crap about what people on this site think about flat earth, as you seem to have skinny-dipped within the Fountain of Eternal Ignorance.

I do just want to point out that that I did notice that you are really quick to throw the scriptures away when they conflict to your preconceived notions on this topic, which might be why you wouldn't recognize this truth if it slapped you in the face.

Please, carry on. You're responses are quite entertaining and my eyes are getting quite the workout from all the rolling around.
 
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jgr

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I've been reading your responses. It's a good thing for my sanity that I stopped giving a crap about what people on this site think about flat earth, as you seem to have skinny-dipped within the Fountain of Eternal Ignorance.

I do just want to point out that that I did notice that you are really quick to throw the scriptures away when they conflict to your preconceived notions on this topic, which might be why you wouldn't recognize this truth if it slapped you in the face.

Please, carry on. You're responses are quite entertaining and my eyes are getting quite the workout from all the rolling around.

If eyes were flat, they couldn't roll around.

Neither could the earth.
 
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Oldmantook

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False dichotomy. Science is talking the observable characteristics of God's creation. Scripture is primarily talking about God's creation, and simply speaks of it as every earth-bound observer has always talked about it, from that time to this. If you try to use the Bible as an engineering tome you're bound to come to grief. That was never its purpose.
The Bible speaks for itself. Your choice to ignore what it says.
 
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