Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

Choose Wisely · Jan 29, 2019

BABerean2 said:
From the link below.
The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

"Three Years After the War

We now come to the final appraisal of the complete desolation of Jerusalem. Note what Eleazar, the final Jewish commander at Masada, related three years after the war was finished at Jerusalem. He gives an eyewitness account of how the Romans preserved Fort Antonia (the Haram) among the ruins. What Eleazar said to the 960 Jewish people (who were to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of General Silva who was on the verge of capturing the Fortress of Masada) is very important in regard to our present inquiry. This final Jewish commander lamented over the sad state of affairs that everyone could witness at this twilight period of the conflict after the main war with the Romans was over.

Jerusalem was to Eleazar a disastrous spectacle of utter ruin. There was only one thing that remained of the former Jerusalem that Eleazar could single out as still standing. This was the Camp of the Romans that Titus permitted to remain as a monument of humiliation over the Mother City of the Jews. Eleazar acknowledged that this military encampment had been in Jerusalem before the war, and that Titus let it continue after the war. The retention of this single Camp of the Romans, according to Eleazar, was a symbol of the victory that Rome had achieved over the Jewish people. His words are recorded in War VII.8,7. Several words and phrases need emphasizing, and I hope I have done so:

"And where is now that great city [Jerusalem], the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which was fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? it is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing left but THAT MONUMENT of it preserved, I mean THE CAMP OF THOSE [the Romans] that hath destroyed it, WHICH STILL DWELLS UPON ITS RUINS; some unfortunate old men also lie ashes upon the of the Temple [the Temple was then in total ruins — all of it had been burnt to ashes], and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach."

What Eleazar said must be reckoned as an eyewitness account of the state of Jerusalem in the year A.D.73. This narrative is of utmost importance to our question at hand. This is because Eleazar admitted that the City of Jerusalem and all its Jewish fortresses had indeed been demolished "to the very foundations." There was nothing left of the City or the Temple. This is precisely what Jesus prophesied would happen."

.

I read it. Interesting, but I don't believe it because there is absolutely no way that the Wailing Wall was built by a Roman. Archeologist and historians say Herod. The Jews (PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME PLAY THE SOFT DRINK GAME) , the Muslims and John in Revelation say that is the Temple mount.

BABerean2 · Jan 29, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
I read it. Interesting, but I don't believe it because there is absolutely no way that the Wailing Wall was built by a Roman. Archeologist and historians say Herod. The Jews (PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME PLAY THE SOFT DRINK GAME) , the Muslims and John in Revelation say that is the Temple mount.

Well known Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron is the man who rediscovered the Pool of Siloam.

He has done underground excavations at the base of the "Wailing Wall".
He found a Roman coin underneath the bottom layer of stones with a date that proves it was built after Herod's temple.

The details are found in the recent book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke.

.

mkgal1 · Jan 29, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
When we put things in context we can see that ......how much more their fulness means how much more their fulness as opposed to the Gentiles fulness.

Wait a minute. This is new to me......but when you say "their fulness" and contrast it with the Gentiles fulness - are you suggesting this verse is comparing Jewish fulness to Gentile fulness? IOW...."how much more is the Jewish fulness as opposed to the Gentile's fulness"? Even though most of the theme of the book of Romans is about the unity and equality between Jew and Gentile in the early church?

parousia70 · Jan 29, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
All of it is made up by you. And I certainly did not say Paul was incorrect ......I SAID YOU WERE INCORRECT..........and you are.

I realize this is your opinion. You have shown no scripture to back it up, however.
Still waiting for that.

The scripture is saying how much more the fullness of the Jews will be as opposed to the Gentiles. It's pretty cut and dried. All you have to do is read it. No need making things up.

Click to expand...

Except you are choosing to interpret "fulness" (Greek = "pleroma") to mean something it does not.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") is the same "FULNESS" used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Eph 3:19, and Col 1:19.

This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-21). By reading the Eph 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Eph 3:19.

By comparing "fullness" (Greek: "pleroma" - Strong's #4138) in Romans 11:25 to its parallel usage in Romans 11:11-12, we see that the term speaks of the "riches" and "salvation" that came to the gentile world through Christ. These riches came to the gentiles via the "diminishing" of some Jews that were blinded during Christ's incarnational ministry but that would later convert in order to obtain "fullness" (Rom 11:11-12,14-23) -- i.e., the fullness of being in the blessing of Abraham and Christ (Gal 3:7-9,14-17,26-29). Paul was one of these such Jews whose initial blindness had been converted (Rom 11:1; 1 Tim 1:12-16), and there were many more at that then-present time which would be converted like him (Rom 11:5; 2 Cor 3:14-16). These first-century Jews were called a "remnant," and, according to Paul, were like the few faithful believers in Israel during the time of apostasy under Isaiah and also Elijah (Rom 11:5; cf. Rom 11:1-5; 9:27-29). The meaning of "fullness" in Romans 11:25 becomes plain from looking at Romans 11:11-12:

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? (Rom 11:11-12)

In this passage "fullness" is the opposite reality to the "fall" and "diminishing" of some Jews in their day. Furthermore, "fall" and "diminishing" clearly mean the falling away from God's covenant; "fullness" means the riches and salvation which come from being in covenant with Christ (see also: Rom 11:14-23).

The gentiles obtained this "fullness" (covenantal inheritance, salvation, and blessing) during St. Paul's ministry. In fact, Paul's entire ministry goal was to deliver this inheritance to the gentile populations (Acts 26:16-23; 20:32; 13:47; Rom 15:16,29; Eph 3:1-10; Rom 11:13; 2 Tim 1:11).

Paul accomplished this mystery of God for the gentiles to become co-heirs with the Jews in Christ's New Covenant riches by the end of his lifetime (compare Acts 13:47/26:16-23/Eph 3:1-10 to 2 Tim 4:7,17). The Church is not still waiting for the gentiles to be offered up and approved by God (Rom 15:16) that they might obtain the fullness of inheritance and riches in Christ. The fullness of the gentiles came in no later than the completion of Paul's ministry.

As much as you seem to wish we were, We are not still waiting for Gentile Fulness to occur.

It's a little hard for me to type right now because I'm still shaking my head regarding your comment about Hitler and the Jews. So Hitler was chasing an imaginary Jew. Imagine that. I can't.

Click to expand...

You have trouble with the facts of the matter. That is plain. You are not alone in your error.

Modern Jews (yes the ones you said Hitler "Chased") have absolutely ZERO RELATIONSHIP to the pre desolation Hebrew Population.

That bears repeating.
Modern Jews have absolutely ZERO RELATIONSHIP to the pre desolation Hebrew Population.

And you can not demonstrate otherwise. But don't feel too bad.
NO ONE CAN.
Not even ANYBODY.

Modern Jewish sources are the first to admit that the "Jews" of today have no blood relation to the ancient people of Israel. The "jews" today are a multi-ethnic conglomeration of peoples that follow a post-AD 70 Talmud religion. So they are neither descendants of the ancient Israelites nor the followers of the religion Moses mandated. Both Secular and Jewish sources will tell you this. For example, read this:

"The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race" (Patai, R., Director of Research, Theodor Herzl Institute, New York. "Encyclopedia Britanica", 12: 1054).

"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race'" (Roth, C., Oxford University Reader in Jewish Studies, in: "Jews", "Collier's Encyclopedia", 103: 574).

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . ."

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, vol. 3, p. 50).

You have fallen prey to, and are merely regurgitating common assumptions, myths and contradictions with your unsupportable claims about a Jewish race today.

I know facing this fact is very troubling for you. I'm sorry it is so difficult for you to accept.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 29, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Wait a minute. This is new to me......but when you say "their fulness" and contrast it with the Gentiles fulness - are you suggesting this verse is comparing Jewish fulness to Gentile fulness? IOW...."how much more is the Jewish fulness as opposed to the Gentile's fulness"? Even though most of the theme of the book of Romans is about the unity and equality between Jew and Gentile in the early church?

Sometimes I find it useful to just put down every verse of a certain greek word together.

Time consuming,yes, but, to me anyway, it brings His Word into a sharper focus much better.
Then I study on other forms of that greek word..........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G4138 πλήρωμα (plērōma), occurs 18 times in 17 verses

NIV
Mar 8:20
“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand,
how many baskets filled<4138> of pieces did you pick up?” They answered, “Seven.”
Jhn 1:16
Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.
Rom 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles,
how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
Rom 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Rom 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Most of these verses relate to the fullness of the earth, Christ, all things:

Rom 15:29
I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.
-------
1Co 10:26
for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and fullness in it.”
Gal 4:4
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son,
born of a woman, born under the law,
-------
Eph 1:10
to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Eph 1:23
which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Eph 3:19
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—
that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Eph 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Col 1:19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

=========================================

4138. pleroma from 4137;
repletion or completion, i.e. (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period)

Romans 11:25
For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, the-this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise.
That a hardening<4457> from part to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrwma <4138> of-the Nations may be entering;
=============================
Another form of that word:

4137. pleroo from 4134;
to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively)

Luke 21 and Revelation 6 looks interesting:

Luke 21:
22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled<4137>.
24 “And they shall be falling by the edge of the sword,
and be being led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles [Revelation 11:2]
until the times<2540> of the Nations are fulfilled<4137>.

Revelation 6:11
And a white robe was given to each of them;
and it was said to them that they should rest still little<3398. time<5550>,
until should be fulfilling<4137> also their fellow servants and their brethren, those being about to be being killed also they.

Choose Wisely · Jan 29, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Wait a minute. This is new to me......but when you say "their fulness" and contrast it with the Gentiles fulness - are you suggesting this verse is comparing Jewish fulness to Gentile fulness? IOW...."how much more is the Jewish fulness as opposed to the Gentile's fulness"? Even though most of the theme of the book of Romans is about the unity and equality between Jew and Gentile in the early church?

Rom 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Choose Wisely · Jan 29, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Well known Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron is the man who rediscovered the Pool of Siloam.

He has done underground excavations at the base of the "Wailing Wall".
He found a Roman coin underneath the bottom layer of stones with a date that proves it was built after Herod's temple.

The details are found in the recent book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke.

.

I have heard this before, I just don't believe it.

John is to measure the Temple of God and the altar. But the court is given to the Gentile. You will likely see a Temple built in the next year or two. I'm sure they will build it at the right place as it is prophesied to be there.

BABerean2 · Jan 29, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
I have heard this before, I just don't believe it.

Why would a well known Israeli archeologist lie about a coin discovered by his team?

.

keras · Jan 29, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Rom 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

But the Jews, those who call themselves Jews; can only be re-grafted into the One Olive Tree, that is Jesus, John 15:1, when they become Christians.
Bible prophecy tells us that the majority of todays Jews will never accept Jesus, so only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27
Your belief in a general redemption of the Jewish people, is wrong and will never happen.

Choose Wisely · Jan 30, 2019

keras said:
But the Jews, those who call themselves Jews; can only be re-grafted into the One Olive Tree, that is Jesus, John 15:1, when they become Christians.
Bible prophecy tells us that the majority of todays Jews will never accept Jesus, so only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27
Your belief in a general redemption of the Jewish people, is wrong and will never happen.

You are correct........only a remnant will be saved.....From the Nation of Israel. Those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up is the remnant that is saved. They will flee to a place of protection and go through the wrath of God.

However if you understood the Jewish feasts you would realize there are three harvest feasts. If you understood that God says if there are 1st fruits, there is a guarantee of a harvest you would see what is to come. Since we can see that there are 144,000 FIRST FRUITS 12,000 from each tribe, there is a guarantee that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes.

The dead in Christ, Passover,.....The Gentiles, Pentecost........and the 12 tribes, Feast of Trumpets, at the last trump. The remnant of the nation of Israel go through the wrath of God.

BABerean2 · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
I have heard this before, I just don't believe it.

If you find a coin under the foundation of your house, the date on that coin will reveal that the house could not have been built before that coin was minted.

The coin Eli Shukron found under the bottom layer of stones of the "Wailing Wall" was dated at 20 AD.
Therefore, it could not have been a part of Herod's temple.

.

BABerean2 · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
They will flee to a place of protection and go through the wrath of God.

Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Nobody can survive the wrath of God.

God's wrath toward me was poured out on His own Son at Calvary.
That wrath killed God's Son.

No human can stand against the wrath of God.

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.

.

Choose Wisely · Jan 30, 2019

BABerean2 said:
If you find a coin under the foundation of your house, the date on that coin will reveal that the house could not have been built before that coin was minted.

The coin Eli Shukron found under the bottom layer of stones of the "Wailing Wall" was dated at 20 AD.
Therefore, it could not have been a part of Herod's temple.

.

Not likely that somebody found a coin under that wall cause it's still standing. I suspect just someone trying to hide the truth. Hey look what I found. Have you ever studied the evidence of evolution. Same thing, a bunch of made of stuff that fools the gullible. The temple will be rebuilt in the next year or two on that Temple mount and the man of sin will proclaim himself God.

Choose Wisely · Jan 30, 2019

parousia70 said:
I realize this is your opinion. You have shown no scripture to back it up, however.
Still waiting for that.

Sorry, I thought I had already posted the scripture.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

parousia70 · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Sorry, I thought I had already posted the scripture.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

I posted that passage too. It proves my position is the correct one.
Thanks for reaffirming it for our readers.

parousia70 · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
I have heard this before, I just don't believe it.

Do you believe the earth Is a Globe?
Perhaps you believe it is flat?
What evidence have you seen/heard for either side?

Simply saying "I've seen the proof, I just refuse to believe it because it upends my paradigm and I don't want my paradigm to be upended" isn't very convincing.

John is to measure the Temple of God and the altar.

Click to expand...

Still waiting for you to demonstrate how a brick and mortar building, erected by modern day, Multi-ethnic, Christ REJECTORS will qualify in God's eyes as "The Temple OF GOD"?

parousia70 · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Not likely that somebody found a coin under that wall cause it's still standing.

Right, because no archeologist has ever dug beneath a standing structure without toppling it, not once ever...

I mean, have you seen the Egyptian Pyramids lately? No? That's right! Because they are GONE! Some archaeologists attempted to dig beneath them and they collapsed to the ground. POOF! Just like that!

You see, It just could never happen and never has happened. It would be impossible to dig beneath a standing structure without collapsing it to the ground. No one has ever been successful at trying.
It's impossible.

The temple will be rebuilt in the next year or two on that Temple mount and the man of sin will proclaim himself God.

Click to expand...

Flagging this post to revisit in 2022 to see if your fancy prediction came true....Will be my 20th anniversary of posting on CF!

Whoda thunk it.. 20 years of refuting all the "Its coming soon! in the next year or two... mark my words" hogwash...

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
John is to measure the Temple of God and the altar. But the court is given to the Gentile. You will likely see a Temple built in the next year or two. I'm sure they will build it at the right place as it is prophesied to be there.

parousia70 said:
Flagging this post to revisit in 2022 to see if your fancy prediction came true....Will be my 20th anniversary of posting on CF!
... mark my words" hogwash...

You have me beat by about 12 yrs, but who's counting.

And I will continue to bring up these "Timing" verses:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what?
the sign of Thy parousia[3952]
and the End<5055> of the Age.
====================
What does it mean "end of all things"?
The end of the world?
End of the Age?
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad?

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things<3956> yet the End<5056> Has drawn nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia<3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh<1448>
=============
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:
that the Time is nigh<1451>

Revelation 22:10
And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll,
that the Time is nigh<1451>

keras · Jan 30, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
You are correct........only a remnant will be saved.....From the Nation of Israel. Those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up is the remnant that is saved. They will flee to a place of protection and go through the wrath of God.

We will all experience the wrath of God on His great and terrible Day of vengeance and wrath. That will be the great test of our faith, as 1 Peter 3:12 and many other scriptures tell us.
Thinking that the Jewish people are the only Israel, is serious error. They freely admit that they represent only 2 of the 12 Israelite tribes.
Jesus plainly said that He has come to save the lost House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes. His mission was successful, we Christians are the proof of it.
The Jews rejected and killed Him, they were punished and mostly killed in 70 AD. Now, another people have arisen, who call themselves Jews; but are not, they will be wiped out along with all their evil neighbors on the Day of the Lord's wrath. Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, +

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 30, 2019

keras said:
We will all experience the wrath of God on His great and terrible Day of vengeance and wrath. That will be the great test of our faith, as 1 Peter 3:12 and many other scriptures tell us.
Thinking that the Jewish people are the only Israel, is serious error. They freely admit that they represent only 2 of the 12 Israelite tribes.

The Levites are also Jewish
They were chosen to stay with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and were in charge of building the House of the LORD in Jerusalem.
The Jews still have to raise up a High Priesthood to serve in the Sanctuary....

Ezr 1:5
Then the heads of the fathers' houses of Judah and Benjamin,
and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

Benjamin was Saul/Paul's tribe........

Psa 68:27 There is little Benjamin, their leader,
The princes of Judah and their company,
The princes of Zebulun and the princes of Naphtali.

Eze 48:22
“Moreover, apart from the possession of the Levites and the possession of the city which are in the midst of what belongs to the prince,
the area between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall belong to the prince.

Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

Is a future Temple in Jerusalem needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

No. We are now the Temple/Sanctuary of God: 1 Corinthians 3:16

Yes. It is needed for the future "Man of Sin" to sit in: 2 Thess 2:4

Other

Forgiven

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Forgiven

Forgiven

Newbie

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Forgiven

Newbie

Newbie

Forgiven

Forgiven

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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