dogs4thewin

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What does that have to do with Jesus' argument that doesn't make any sense?
The fact that you said if Satan was as deceptive as Christians claim he could make anyone look good and worthy of following well there have always been and until Christ comes back ( I know Jews do not believe He has come to come back), but as long as we are in this sinful world there always will be false prophets.
 
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Jonaitis

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Let's begin with the first verse you quoted from in Isaiah 11:

"There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit."

It is significant to notice the language used here. If David's house is compared to a stump that is felled, which in the previous chapter describes God's wrath, then this must mean that this passage refers to a time when all of the splendor and glory of David's house will be brought so low that it will appear near to the point of extinction. Interestingly, on this account he does not call it David, but Jesse; because the rank of that family had sunk so low, that it no longer appeared to be a royal family, but that of a mean peasant, such as the family of Jesse was, when David was unexpectedly called to the government of the kingdom. However, the one promised to restore the kingdom is compared to a shoot and branch coming forth from such a poor condition and state.

It is plain that this verse must take place after the Babylonian exile. After the seventy years of that exile passed, we read that David's house did retain little power afterward, but not anywhere near the rank of a kingdom. Historians note the decaying nature of that family's royal influence in the land for the next several centuries until it appeared to have completely disappeared.

Now, I don't know how comfortable you are with suggesting that this verse refers to 2500-plus years after that fact, but that is very extreme in my opinion. If we took this passage in the strict interpretation of Judaism, this passage is long overdue wouldn't you think? This is quite a long absence for the house to be still a stump and a root. At least in Jesus' day, there was a temple that still stood, with sacrifices still practiced, among many other things that are now in history books.

Let's think about this before we jump into the rest of the chapter, this is vitally important in understanding the passages you highlighted.
 
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Yes, I am judgmental and unloving. Thank you for telling me what is in my heart.
After reading your PM, I don't think you are. All you are doing is telling the truth. The watchman has to shout a warning, and it is not always pleasant. The awful truth is that "the wicked will be turned into Hell", and we should do all we can to keep people out of that place.

Before I was a Christian, when I was travelling by inter-Island ferry from Wellington to Picton (NZ) I was approached by a Christian who handed me a tract entitled "Chicken" by David Wilkerson. It talked about where will we be when Jesus comes again. At that moment I looked out over the sea and saw the same type of clouds I saw in an artist's depiction of the Second Coming. That scared me, and I know that it opened me to listen to the gospel message he shared with me. That was 52 years ago now, and I am so glad that the Lord, through His Spirit used that picture and the clouds over the sea to make me nervous enough to open myself to the Gospel which resulted in me accepting Christ as my Saviour three weeks later at the guy's church!
 
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Sanoy

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There are two important Messiah's prophecied to come. One on a Donkey and one on the cloud's. Jesus came first on a Donkey, and will come again on the clouds to fulfil the remainder. This is why we have Messianic prophecies both of the Messiah suffering and the Messiah triumphing. It requires two occurances as one cannot come on a Donkey and on the clouds without first going away.

Cyrus. What do you make of Genesis 19:24 where there are two LORDs ( read as Hashem), one LORD has the mark of the accusative upon it and the other is the one doing. Or Zechariah 3:2 where the LORD says, the LORD rebuke you. Taking on the same format as the assumption of Moses where Michael appeals to a higher authority than himself. What higher authority is the LORD appealing to here, or is He speaking in the third person? This other LORD is who we would identify as Jesus.
 
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King Cyrus

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He king... theres a youtube channel I LOVE...its Jewish.. Jewish guys.."ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry". Look it up.. those are Jewish people that found Christ. It will really help
I know about that organization. I'm sorry to say but they repeatedly misrepresent the Hebrew Bible and for whatever reason they will sometimes quote Rabbinic literature to support their teachings even though they will take it out of context just like they do with the Tanakh and I guess they don't understand that the people who wrote and compiled the literature they're quoting were completely opposed to their teachings.
 
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King Cyrus

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Well I see you've been busy in the thread, hope I haven't arrived too late to jump in here. What you have encountered here is the early mention of the eighth century prophet of the coming of the Messiah, mind you, this is before Israel and Judah had been invaded. Always the eighth century prophets told of the coming of the Messianic kingdom and when the king did come, he was rejected, crucified and raised three days later. In all the time after Israel returned to the land to the coming of the Messiah no son of David sat on the throne, then when Jesus, often called 'Son of David' did arrive he warned the Apostles, it's not time. For almost a thousand years and now over two thousand years we wait for that time, yet the promise persists.

I would take issue with only one point, Jesus did accomplish one thing, he put an end to sin by means of his atonement thus ending the need for sacrifice that was a constant reminder of sin. Indeed believers wait in anxious expectation for all to be fulfilled, his earthly kingdom is not yet. Evil still prevails far to often in the affairs of men, there would be few believers that do not share your frustration. But God's patience is meant to leave time for repentance, but Christ's return like his first appearance in Israel so long ago, was promised even before the foundation of the world.

If you would like to take a serious look at Messianic prophecy and how it relates to the second coming and the translation of believers at the end of the age I'm happy to participate. Just bear in mind it's a lengthy subject, not given to easy answers.

Grace and peace,
Mark
The problem with that is that we are specifically told in Ezekiel that during the Messianic Age there will be a Temple with sacrifices. And more important to this discussion is that we read in Ezekiel 45:21-22: "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover; a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. And upon that day shall the prince [hanasi] prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin-offering." This prince, as almost all Jewish and surprisingly even Christian commentators admit, is the King Messiah. The reason they say that is because in Ezekiel 34:24 we read: "And I the LORD will be their God, and My servant David prince [nasi] among them; I the LORD have spoken." Ezekiel is doubtless speaking of the Messiah in Ezekiel 45:22 since he calls the Messiah "prince" in Ezekiel 34:24 and then he uses the definite article "ha" later in his prophecies to let us know that it's the prince he previously spoke about.
 
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mark kennedy

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The problem with that is that we are specifically told in Ezekiel that during the Messianic Age there will be a Temple with sacrifices. And more important to this discussion is that we read in Ezekiel 45:21-22: "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover; a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. And upon that day shall the prince [hanasi] prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin-offering." This prince, as almost all Jewish and surprisingly even Christian commentators admit, is the King Messiah. The reason they say that is because in Ezekiel 34:24 we read: "And I the LORD will be their God, and My servant David prince [nasi] among them; I the LORD have spoken." Ezekiel is doubtless speaking of the Messiah in Ezekiel 45:22 since he calls the Messiah "prince" in Ezekiel 34:24 and then he uses the definite article "ha" later in his prophecies to let us know that it's the prince he previously spoke about.
I really don't see the problem, in the Millennial kingdom they will offer sacrifices looking back at the cross just as they looked forward to it in the Old Testament.
 
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King Cyrus

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There are two important Messiah's prophecied to come. One on a Donkey and one on the cloud's. Jesus came first on a Donkey, and will come again on the clouds to fulfil the remainder. This is why we have Messianic prophecies both of the Messiah suffering and the Messiah triumphing. It requires two occurances as one cannot come on a Donkey and on the clouds without first going away.
Riding on the clouds and riding on a donkey are both imagery of the reigning Messiah. Riding on a donkey means that he's humble and riding on the clouds means that he is victorious.
Cyrus. What do you make of Genesis 19:24 where there are two LORDs ( read as Hashem), one LORD has the mark of the accusative upon it and the other is the one doing. Or Zechariah 3:2 where the LORD says, the LORD rebuke you. Taking on the same format as the assumption of Moses where Michael appeals to a higher authority than himself. What higher authority is the LORD appealing to here, or is He speaking in the third person? This other LORD is who we would identify as Jesus.
In Genesis 19:24, it is simply a way Scripture sometimes says things. We also read in 1 Kings 8:1: "Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the princes of the fathers’ houses of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem." Obviously there are not two Solomons here. Regarding Zechariah 3:2, this is also another manner of speaking sometimes presented in the Tanakh. For instace, we read in Genesis 4:23: "And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; Ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech; For I have slain a man for wounding me, And a young man for bruising me;" And he did not say "hearken unto me, my wives." There are many other instances of this. Even in the Christian bible Jesus often talks about himself as the son of man in the third person.
 
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King Cyrus

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I really don't see the problem, in the Millennial kingdom they will offer sacrifices looking back at the cross just as they looked forward to it in the Old Testament.
Because if the Messiah offers sacrifices for himself, then that means he is not sinless as the new testament says Jesus is. In fact I believe it's the book of Hebrews which says that Jesus doesn't have to offer sacrifices for himself since he is "without sin."
 
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King Cyrus

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Let's begin with the first verse you quoted from in Isaiah 11:

"There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit."

It is significant to notice the language used here. If David's house is compared to a stump that is felled, which in the previous chapter describes God's wrath, then this must mean that this passage refers to a time when all of the splendor and glory of David's house will be brought so low that it will appear near to the point of extinction. Interestingly, on this account he does not call it David, but Jesse; because the rank of that family had sunk so low, that it no longer appeared to be a royal family, but that of a mean peasant, such as the family of Jesse was, when David was unexpectedly called to the government of the kingdom. However, the one promised to restore the kingdom is compared to a shoot and branch coming forth from such a poor condition and state.
I'm not quite sure what your point is. The Davidic Throne right now is nonexistent but when the King Messiah comes, he will restore that Throne.
Now, I don't know how comfortable you are with suggesting that this verse refers to 2500-plus years after that fact, but that is very extreme in my opinion. If we took this passage in the strict interpretation of Judaism, this passage is long overdue wouldn't you think? This is quite a long absence for the house to be still a stump and a root. At least in Jesus' day, there was a temple that still stood, with sacrifices still practiced, among many other things that are now in history books.
According to the Christian point of view that house is still a stump and a root. Chrsitians recognize that the Davidic Throne has not been restored. The fact that it has been a long time is completely consistent with Biblical prophecy. We read in Hosea 3:4-5: "For the children of Israel shall be many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod or teraphim; afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto the LORD and to His goodness in the end of days."
 
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Jonaitis

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I'm not quite sure what your point is. The Davidic Throne right now is nonexistent but when the King Messiah comes, he will restore that Throne.

Well, it depends on how we are looking at David's throne.

According to the Christian point of view that house is still a stump and a root. Chrsitians recognize that the Davidic Throne has not been restored.

Not all Christians, some see that the Davidic throne is as of now occupied by Jesus and restored.

The fact that it has been a long time is completely consistent with Biblical prophecy. We read in Hosea 3:4-5: "For the children of Israel shall be many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod or teraphim; afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto the LORD and to His goodness in the end of days."

Passage refers to the reunion of Israel and Judah, who will seek the Messiah in the latter days. What was lost by Solomon will be restored, but in a truest sense.
 
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King Cyrus

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Well, it depends on how we are looking at David's throne.

Not all Christians, some see that the Davidic throne is as of now occupied by Jesus and restored.
But it isn't occupied nor restored. Jesus never reigned as king nor is the Kingdom of David established right now.
 
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King Cyrus

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Passage refers to the reunion of Israel and Judah, who will seek the Messiah in the latter days. What was lost by Solomon will be restored, but in a truest sense.
But that hasn't happened yet. The children of Israel are still seeking David (i.e. the Messiah) their king - which means he hasn't come yet.
 
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Jonaitis

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But it isn't occupied nor restored. Jesus never reigned as king nor is the Kingdom of David established right now.

Sure, not in the same sense of how David reigned. But certainly he reigns over Israel.

I am currently using my phone, a bit difficult to reply, so I may not make long posts.
 
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King Cyrus

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Sure, not in the same sense of how David reigned. But certainly he reigns over Israel.
If he reigns over Israel then why is he not in Jerusalem ruling Israel right now? And if he is reigning over Israel right now then why are the Israelis unaware that Jesus is reigning over them?
 
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Jonaitis

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But that hasn't happened yet. The children of Israel are still seeking David (i.e. the Messiah) their king - which means he hasn't come yet.

Who is Israel? Please explain.
 
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King Cyrus

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Is there a covenant relationship between the descendants of Jacob and God? If so, could you explain?
Yes, as it is written: "Thus saith the LORD, Who giveth the sun for a light by day, And the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, Who stirreth up the sea, that the waves thereof roar, The LORD of hosts is His name: If these ordinances depart from before Me, Saith the LORD, Then the seed of Israel also shall cease From being a nation before Me for ever. Thus saith the LORD: If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, Then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, saith the LORD" (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
 
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