predestined

KyleSpringer

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I responded exercising a choice to do so. Predestination and foreknowledge does not mean we don't have choices. It means we act according to the nature of our choices. We are either dead in our sins and sons of disobedience or slaves to righteousness and Christ. Our choices are in accordance with what or Whom we are in bondage to, or slaves to.

Romans 6: NASB
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Now ask the question. Do our choices thwart the will and purpose of God? Because it seems everyone wants to deny God His own Will and Purpose by calling any move by God to predestine does not make us 'free.' As we see from Romans 6 we truly are not 'free' in the Deistic Enlightenment or modern Libertarian mentality. We are under bondage to either sin leading to death, or Christ and righteousness. So that limitation right there squashes the notion of 'free will.' We are free to make choices but those choices are in bondage.

This teaching is apostolic, Biblical, historical and Reformed.

Our choices are in submission, not bondage.

Though the word enslaved is used, we are being told that we were purchased and that those who accept the free gift of salvation will serve a new master.

The term slave here insinuates an indentured servant, who is free to choose to stay or leave, but as the scripture says “you derive your benefit, resulting in salvation” therefore we assume that we serve a Master who is good to those that serve in His House.

We know that his kindness draws us in. Paul would put it this way,

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This does not mean that he had no choice, and was put in a state of bondage, but the manner in which his heart was so grabbed by the grace of his Lord compelled him in a way that is comparable to someone simply overwhelming him with might and majesty, that to not submit would be foolish.

You may contend this fact, but then how does one explain leaders in the community admittedly and knowingly walking into sin, even after they claimed to have been converted from death to life?

All that to say choice would be an illusion in which trust and hope would play no part, if our choices truly were situational. The way the truth and the life for each person, sinner and saint, is Jesus Christ.

And as Joshua said, I lay before you a choice between life and death. Choose life.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Sometimes I wonder if I try to hard and push myself to understanding something that was never there in the first place.

People tend to tell us some of those things are there, and you are finding just how much they can be believed. They teach some of the most oddball stuff, and that's why we should go by the bible more than anything. That along with our God given common sense works quite well.

I also try to give tried and true beliefs more serious consideration than I do smaller groups of "Higher Knowledge" that just doesn't sound right/way too many things just don't fit. And after looking into it, we often find it's something that was never there in the first place.

Its a lot like the old tried and true "star" movie ratings, though there may be a few oddballs giving their reviews in the process, the vast majority know what they are talking about and it all evens out to where the rating is right on target for most movies. The same with what most Christians believe of the bible and have for a long time, is often what I find works best/is most true.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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For what we know in theory anyone can be saved by God, for what God knows only those He personally chose to be vessels of mercy that is predestined to salvation is Christ will be saved. However if anyone can simply repent and join Jesus, why did you choose Christ while others reject and deny Him?
I chose Christ because of his love. Some people reject Christ and god because they think God is evil and cruel.
 
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Cis.jd

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But at times due to historical contexts people of today's can always understand. Sometimes I can''t understand everything. Will God be angry that we can't always understand his bible?
no. I've come to peace with things i can't understand, you should as well. We don't know how "predestination" works; we have various different theories and explanations to it, and neither one can be proven. Hey, for all we know, it may as well be all analytical to him. He can tell your life just out of determining the way you live, your personality, etc etc... We don't know. The best we can do sometimes is admit our ignorances instead of building doctrines that are very self-contradictory as to what some of the references here show. It is good to apply reason to these things and sometimes the reasonable answer is just admitting to ignorances and not get affected by it so much.
 
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redleghunter

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Predestination is not fate, that is not what is meant by Paul when he uses the term translated 'predestination' nor what Calvinists are talking about when they use it. The Greek word is proorizō (προορίζω G4309, from πρό G4253 and ὁρίζω G3724). It's composed of two Greek words, 'pro' which is the exact same meaning as the prefix 'pro', in the English, and horizō, which is where we get the word horizon from. The dictionary definition from Vine's Dictionary:

Determine, Determinate: pro, "beforehand," and No. 2, denotes "to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain;" in Act 4:28, AV, "determined before," RV, "foreordained;" so the RV in 1Cr 2:7, AV, "ordained;" in Rom 8:29, 30 and Eph 1:5, 11, AV, "predestinate," RV, "foreordain." (Vine’s Dictionary)
There is nothing in this word indicating anything remotely like pagan fate, the way your using it, it doesn't even resemble how Greek mythology describes fate. It's the plans and purposes of God beyond the vanishing point of our horizon, even before the foundation of the world, that God ordained that would include us as the elect, adopted as sons, and the righteousness of God in Christ. As many times as I've seen the subject of predestination come up I have yet to see the true theological meaning of this word expounded by critics of Calvinism. The questions raised by the doctrine of predestination are asked and answered in the New Testament in no uncertain terms, not that I expect we will get to them because we never do.

Predestination is whatever God’s hand and counsel determined before to be done (Acts 4:28). That we as the elect would be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). That the elect would be called, justified and glorified according to God’s mercy and perfect will (Rom. 8:30). That the mystery of God’s will would be revealed unto our glory (1Cor. 2:7). The adoption as sons according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph. 1:5). That in Christ we would obtain an inheritance after the council of his own will (Eph. 1:11).

Those plans and purposes will not change whether you go on to faith, righteousness and glory, or find yourself in the fires of perdition. The emphasis is always, because it must be, the perfect will of God. Calvinism does not teach fate, eternal security is synonymous with eternal life and it's either that or eternal death, there is no third choice. Of course you have free will, at the feeding of the 5,000 a few choose to stay and most of them chose to leave, but your will is meaningless with regards to any personal merit you might have with regards to salvation. We don't know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, to even ask the question is not of faith (Rom. 10:5-13). On the last day God will expose the secret intentions of the heart, therefore we are told not to judge anything before the proper time when God judges righteously (1 Cor. 4:5). Shall clay say to the maker, what makest thou? (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:21).

Whatever you think of predestination, as taught by Calvinists, stay in your lane, God will reveal all things in the fullness of time. Because no Calvinist worth his salt and certainly no New Testament writer, has ever embraced the pagan notion of fate. That is an absurdity that boarders on slander, I've never heard any such thing from my Calvinist brethren, nor do I expect I ever will. The emphasis is always on God's sovereign will, his plans and purposes in Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Wow exegesis and a bit of exposition goes a long way. Cheers!
 
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Thomas Cooper

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Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Hi, that’s a good question. It is, however, a logical fallacy. Foreknowledge does not equal causation.
 
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Halbhh

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But at times due to historical contexts people of today's can always understand. Sometimes I can''t understand everything. Will God be angry that we can't always understand his bible?
No -- instead, we grow over time, all of us. We start by understanding the simpler things. Like His disciples, who just like us, needed time:

Mark 8 NIV

The most key help for me is truly to listen (to not think I already know, but to humbly listen). His words are living.
 
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I chose Christ because of his love. Some people reject Christ and god because they think God is evil and cruel.

So you were wiser than those people who reject Christ before you chose Christ?
 
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SayaOtonashi

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In order for one to be saved accept Jesus Christ our loved and savior. What if you have doubts whether you have fully accepted Jesus into your life. This is what I'm struggled with. The worry I have never been saved but then again no one knows. I have to accepted if I'm damned or not. Sorry I do have a little bit of a learning disable. So it can affected my understanding.
 
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friend of

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I agree that his perceptive will is that all may repent and be saved, but it may not he his purpose to save all by his grace

But Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. He exorts sinners to turn, repent and be saved. If this is His will, then it is a contradiction to believe that He would predestine some to hell.


Does his knowing change the fact that the players had free will?

Yes but calvinism has it that God is more than an observer, but that he is calling the plays before they happen. In Calvinism, Gods sovereign will is always operating and free will is rather dubious to reconcile for the outside observers.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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To make myself clear and I'm a bit later. The reason to ask this question is due to a article I read. I don't fully accept this thinking in the article

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?

Just in case I get something wrong what is the corrected definition of free will?
 
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Pethesedzao

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Ok.

Let me simply encourage that as we read in the wonderful Romans chapter 8, and elsewhere, we should always strive to hear every word. To listen (to fall silent in our minds and hear). Then, in verse 28, we can notice "for those that love the Lord" that outcome.

In verse 28 it's not simply to believe, but also to love God. Romans 8 ESV
If you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit you can know much much more.
 
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redleghunter

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Your linked text is way too long. All I can say is you can't know, only believe the one or the other.

Let say I know everything and you are doing a painting. You are thinking that you will either paint a fox or a lion, but you go with the lion. Of course I knew you would go for the lion. But does that mean I made the choice for you because I knew what you would decide?

Edit: If you like you can take the best arguments from the philosophical site, and I will try to argue against the.
Not even close to Biblical predestination. Perhaps argue from the Scriptures?

Here are two passages which are good to examine:

Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

This one is pretty simple I'm sure you would agree. God predetermined the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. It happened at the exact time and place with the people involved. Exactly as God would have it according to His will. He also had foreknowledge of the events as this plan was before the foundations of the Earth. So God planned it and also knew it was going to happen.

Now a bit more difficult:

Acts 4: NASB
27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Picking up on the Acts 2 reference we know the arrest, passion, death and resurrection of Christ was predetermined (a plan) and with foreknowledge of God. Now look what Peter does. He connects the dots between God's plan and foreknowledge and shows there were people involved in this predetermined plan. Peter here shows the sovereign terms of Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Now we have Herod, Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles (Roman soldiers no doubt) and the peoples of Israel are doing whatever God's hand and God's purpose predestined to occur.

Here's the questions:

Did Herod et. al. act as robots or puppets when they were doing whatever the hand of God and His purpose predestined to occur? Meaning were they being forced against their will, in some trance or under some satanic spell of sorts?

Or, were Herod et. al. making choices according to nature or bondage of the will (Romans 6)?

Or did God wait for Herod et. al. to make a free will choice and strike while the iron was hot?
 
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Jonaitis

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The statement that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world must be understood as referring to elect in all places, from every nation, and every language. If we take those verses strictly, then everyone would be saved. Jesus would have paid the penalty our sins deserve regardless of faith in him. Or, if Jesus died for every individual on earth ever to be born, but it is still up to us to repent (allowing some to still suffer for their sins in hell), then God would be playing double jeopardy, because Christ would have punished sin for everyone and still punish some who don't believe. That's a double trial. Either Jesus died for everyone or he died for some.

But, I am confident that you don't believe this. The application of Christ's atonement is limited to those who believe, but then this means his death is only effectual to some. Christ did not spill his blood for some who would be punished anyways, he died to save sinners.

John the Baptist, and others, used this phrase "world" to show a Jewish audience that salvation is for all people, not just Israel. "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Who did John say this to? Jews. Or Jesus when he spoke to Nicodemus, a religious Jew, saying that God so loved the world (John 3:16) that he gave his Son for it. He was conveying that He doesn't only love his people among the Jews, but among the Gentiles too.

On your second point, I don't think you understand Calvinism. God is the one active in all the events that happens, because he is carrying out his purposes. We do have a will, but not such a libertarian one that can thwart God's eternal decrees. Remember Joseph? He was sold into Egypt (through the Ishmaelite traders) by his older brothers, but then he became second ruler of Egypt. What did he tell his brothers afterwards?

"God sent me here before you to preserve for you a remnant on earth, and to keep alive for you many survivors. So it was not you who sent me here, but God." - Genesis 45:7-8

And he reiterates even later:

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." - Genesis 50:20

They willfully did this against Joseph, but they didn't realize that God was actually working the events out for a future purpose. This is a high mystery we can't explain, God is sovereign over every detail of life, yet we still made conscious choices and they are exactly what was suppose to happen. This is part of Calvinism.
 
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redleghunter

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Just in case I get something wrong what is the corrected definition of free will?
Philemon 1:14 is the only place in the entire New Testament you will find the term "free will." I guess you can start there.

Theopedia does have this:

Free will
Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition,"^[1]^ and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.

According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices, but in his natural state he necessarily acts in accordance with his fallen nature. Man willingly makes choices that flow from the heart, and sin is also always attributed to the desires of the heart (James 1:13-15). When a person turns to Christ, he does so not because of his own "free will", but because God has supernaturally enabled and moved him to do so through regeneration. God never coerces man's will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is a doctrinal distinction between the theologies of Calvinism and Arminianism: In Arminianism, God saves those who believe of their own free will. In Calvinism, God saves those who willingly believe as a result of sovereign enablement by the regenerating work of the Spirit.

Rather than man's will being free, Jesus tells us that, "everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin," (John 8:34). The heart, until born again, is "deceitful above all things, and desperately sick" (Jeremiah 17:9). God saw in man that "every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44).

Man is most free in heaven, where he is morally unable to sin. True freedom isn't freedom to sin, but freedom from sin.

Definitions
The Compatibilist believes that free will is "compatible" with determinism (as in the sovereignty of God). The incompatibilist says that the free will is "incompatible" with determinism. The Libertarian is an incompatibilist who consequently rejects any determinism associated with the sovereignty of God. Hence, Libertarian free will is necessarily associated with both Open Theism, which maintains that God does not foreknow or predetermine the free choices of man, and Arminianism, which contends that God in his omniscience foresees man's free choices and reacts accordingly. Libertarian freedom is the general view of liberal Protestantism and a growing number of evangelicals.

Compatibilist freedom
In compatibilism, free will is affected by human nature and man will never choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man will always do what he desires most at any particular moment - even when there are competing desires. And man is not able to freely change the direction or the degree of his desires. God is the one who must turn his heart.

"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart" (Matthew 15:18) "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mark 7:21-23, also Matthew 15:19) "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will." (Proverbs 21:1) "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." (Romans 9:14-16) The main arguments for this position are as follows:

  • It is overwhelmingly testified to in scripture, even in an explicit manner.
  • The Bible speaks of faith as a gift.
  • Sola gratia, by grace alone, necessarily implies that everything we have is a gift.
  • That God is God necessarily implies that he is the primary cause of all reality.
  • The nature of God's foreknowledge necessarily implies that God foreordains the future.
  • Man cannot be held accountable for his choices if they are ultimately spontaneous and random. The intent of his heart must be the criteria.
  • In heaven, when man is finally redeemed from his flesh and its corresponding worldly desires, he will no longer want to sin.
  • True freedom is freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.
 
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