“...be in subjection to the governing authorities” Romans 13

Tolkien R.R.J said:

for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

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I think the problem lies in distinguishing between "the servant of God" and "the sword"... Sometimes the tool is like the clay that questions its creator...

SkyWriting said:

...said no one in the Bible...ever.

Romans 12,19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Matthew 26,52
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Matthew 5,38
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil.

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never said so, neither does the bible say to force cohesion of anti biblical principles under government law.


What About the Sermon on the Mount?

“Christianity is a fighting religion. I dont want retreat I want attack..let us go down fighting for the right side.”
-C.S Lewis

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[Means properly understand and interpret] 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-Mathew 5

Jesus called his followers to be the salt of the earth. Salt is an irritant. Put salt in your eyes, a wound or in your drink. Christ and the early Christians were killed for their faith because of their boldness and for irritating the powers that be of this world under the rule of satan the god of this world. In today's world we play “nice” and get along with the cultural and the world and satan rules more and more. What about the sermon on the mount where Jesus calls us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek? Many seem to think these are new commands to believers part of the new covenant and thus the old moral code and laws no longer apply. However there is nothing new here, Jesus is simply giving the proper understanding of various OT laws, The OT teaches the same principles.

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
-Leviticus 19.18

30 let him give his cheek to the one who strikes,
and let him be filled with insults.
-Lamentations 3.30

“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.
-Exodus 23 4-5

Therefore any events or actions during the Old Testament God saw as consistent [as did Jesus in his sermon on the mount] with the principles of loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek. This same Old Testament allowed for the death penalty, the conquest of Canaan and the overthrow of multiple tyrannical governments. The NT does not bring about new laws [ but a new covenant] and is salvation centered, while the OT is where God laid out his political laws. I think our modern understanding of the sermon on the mount is off. I also think our modern ideas of what love is [usually being nice] is not God's idea of love is. For example Elijah made fun of the prophets of Baal in 1 kings. In Psalm 69 24- 28 David prays his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life. Paul wished anyone who preaches contrary to the gospel to be cursed 1Galatians 1 8-9 and in 5.12 he wishes they would be castrated. In 2 Timothy 4:14 Paul hopes Alexander the Coppersmith would be repaid for his evil works. And in acts 13.10

Then Saul—also called Paul—filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer 10 and said, “You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won’t you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?

Jesus used harsh language and often insulted the authorities and his enemies. Calling them vipers, evil, sons of the devil, a fox etc Matt 23.37 12.34 Luke 13.3 John 8.44 Matt 7.6. He also threatened unrepentant men with judgment and hell fire mark 12.9 matt 21.4 11 21-24 18.6.

So when Jesus said “Turn the other cheek”

“”Christ is not directly addressing questions of government and criminal justice in this passage but is speaking of the attitude that individual Christians ought to strive to take toward injustice he suffers. And that is how the passage has traditionally been understood.”
-Edward Fesser Joseph M Bessette by man shall his blood be shed Ignatius press San Francisco 2017

“What Jesus here demands of his followers is a personal attitude to evildoers which is promoted by mercy not justice, witch renounces retaliation so compelling us to risk further costly suffering, which is governed never by desire to cause them harm but always by the determination to serve their highest good”
-John Scott

In John 18 when Jesus himself was slapped in the face he challenged the man's reasons who slapped him. When Paul was slapped in the face in acts chapter 23 he replied
“Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall!”


Are we not to resist evil doers? Jesus contently resisted evil doers. He did this in the temple with the money changers. He did this by casting out demons. Peter resisted Simon magus acts 8. Paul stands up to Elymas in acts 13. We are to overcome evil with good [Rom 12 17-21 1 peter 2 21-24]. In the sermon on the mount Jesus did not get rid of judicial proportionality [eye for eye] or oath tacking, neither did Jesus do away with punishments as he often preached hell fire. Instead he calls us to be generous and forgiving, seeking reconciliation. He is prohibiting a cycle of insults among citizens. Augustine said

“The old precept as well as the new is intended to check the vehemence of hatred and to curb the impetuosity of angry passion...to put a restraint upon a revenges unjust from its excess, the law established the principle of compensation, that the penalty should correspond to the injury inflicted. So the precepts “and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” instead of to kindle the fire that was quenched, was rather a covering to prevent the fire already kindled from spreading.”

The Sermon on the Mount and Vengeance vs Justice

“What is here commanded is a christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than indulge the desire of revenge, but what is further added does not strickley obey according to the letter, for neither did Christ, nor Paul turn the other check”
-Robert Witham and Richard Challoner

Vengeance is a sin and inconstant with loving your enemies. But if motivated by justice , or a desired good outcome, it is not a evil. Giving gifts for good behavior and consequences for bad actions is normal human thought. Christians should be angry at the evils of the world and violations of Gods law, God himself is angry at them this is a good thing showing us created in the image of God. When a robber goes through a house raping, stealing, torturing and finally murdering woman children and men, that should arose anger for its injustice. Therefore if you motives are justice, than that is not a revenge instance.

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
-Isaiah 61.8

Forgiveness and Justice

As Christians we are called to forgive as our father forgives us on a personal level between individuals. On a personal level we are always called to forgive when they repent.

So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sistera sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
-Luke 17 3-4

Therefore repent! Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth. I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.... 22 Look! I will throw her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her practices. 23 I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
-Revelations 2 16, 22-23

Than we can be like our father in haven.

Yahweh—Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth, 7 maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave the guilty unpunished
-Exodus 34 6-7


But forgiveness does not mean we dont work against evil and certainty that we don't condone it or allow it. While we are to forgive all, it is not a blind forgiveness that overrides justice and punishments for law breakers and an allowance to sin. God himself sends unrepentant sinners to eternal punishment. Jesus himself did not blindly forgive Mark 14.21 Matt 12.31. Yet even those who repent still must face justice. A distinction is made by God between individual forgiveness, and laws to govern society.


“It is indeed praiseworthy for victims of crime to forgive their debtors, but such personal pardon does not absolve offenders from their obligations to justice. The relationship of the state to the criminal is not the same as that of a victim to an assailant. Governors and judges are responsible for maintaining a just public order.”
-Cardinal Avery Bulles



Live by the sword die by the sword


if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed.
Rev 13.10

Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
-Genesis 9.6

This is what self defense is, killing those tyrants who live by the sword. Jesus himself is often armed with a sword rev 19 1 Chronicles 21:16 Joshua 5.13 Numbers 22.23

SkyWriting said:

Sorry, the topic is legal authority. Slavery is one example.

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not at all, its on proper authority and what to do when the authority is no longer.... well proper. Slavery [not as commonly imagined] is biblical.

Slavery in the Bible?

SkyWriting said:

NOW you getting to the exact point! Splendid!
I didn't pick any of these passages myself.
And they are not chosen by any group or denomination.
They are created by a non-biased computer search program.
This is why your claims of lies and deception are hilarious!
I didn't pick any of these "Out of context". The passages are chosen
becasue they deal with the topic you search for.

What Does the Bible Say About Leaders Are Appointed By God?
What Does the Bible Say About Government?
What Does the Bible Say About Law?

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and that is the issue, you avoid context draw a false conclusion and avoid context and numerous passages. I ll show, chose your top 3 passages that prove your position or disprove mine. We have already been through this and you have shown your methods when they are shown in context.

Tone said:

I think the problem lies in distinguishing between "the servant of God" and "the sword"... Sometimes the tool is like the clay that questions its creator...

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sometimes the tool turns its sword on its creator are we than to join in? I see no biblical evidence for that and much against.

He who loves the Lord will keep His words, He who doesn't love the Lord will not keep His words. His sheep know His voice and follow it.

W2L said:

He who loves the Lord will keep His words, He who doesn't love the Lord will not keep His words. His sheep know His voice and follow it.

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amen. Our Shepard is not the government but God.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

sometimes the tool turns its sword on its creator are we than to join in? I see no biblical evidence for that and much against.

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Well, I was thinking more along the lines of when the armed forces or law enforcement see themselves as the governing authority and forget that they are the sword or tool. So, no, I don't believe that they should turn against the true authority (which, remember, is the Constitution).

*And if these tools are used to enforce what is unconstitutional, they are being wielded by an imposter servant of God.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

and that is the issue, you avoid context draw a false conclusion and avoid context and numerous passages. I ll show, chose your top 3 passages that prove your position or disprove mine. We have already been through this and you have shown your methods when they are shown in context.

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They are all in those links. There is no need to prove you can worm out from any truth. The TRUTH is on those three links are examples that I have no control over. Go ahead and SEARCH for the topics yourself. Do the typing yourself. The results you get are the same as what I get. No worming about context. The topics are picked by computer search based on the words you enter.

What Does the Bible Say About Leaders Are Appointed By God?

SkyWriting said:

They are all in those links. There is no need to prove you can worm out from any truth. The TRUTH is on those three links are examples that I have no control over. Go ahead and SEARCH for the topics yourself. Do the typing yourself. The results you get are the same as what I get. No worming about context. The topics are picked by computer search based on the words you enter.

What Does the Bible Say About Leaders Are Appointed By God?

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Great, pick your top 3 that you think in their proper context disprove my position or prove yours. Than I will show once more you are drawing false conclusion based on what you want the bible to say while ignoring scores in context that show what the bible teaches.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

amen. Our Shepard is not the government but God.

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Always the sermon, and the bible hidden under your seat?
Where is the scripture?

Tolkien R.R.J said:

Great, pick your top 3 that you think in their proper context disprove my position or prove yours. Than I will show once more you are drawing false conclusion based on what you want the bible to say while ignoring scores in context that show what the bible teaches.

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ok

God's law written in ink or in stone is not suitable for guiding mans actions.

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point
has become accountable for all of it.

SkyWriting said:

Always the sermon, and the bible hidden under your seat?
Where is the scripture?

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Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
-1 Corinthians 7.23

“Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.”
-William Penn

it is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes
-Psalm 118.9

To Him who divided the Red Sea in two, For His mercy endures forever; 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His mercy endures forever; 15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,For His mercy endures forever; 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness,For His mercy endures forever;17 To Him who struck down great kings, For His mercy endures forever; 18 And slew famous kings,For His mercy endures forever—
-Psalm 136 13-18




The kings of the earth set themselves,And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
-Psalm 2 2-3

“Christianity is a fighting religion. I don't want retreat I want attack...let us go down fighting for the right side.”
-C.S Lewis

The original American seal was “rebellion to tyrants is obedience to god” with a picture of Moses drowning pharaohs army in the red sea. Israel could either follow Moses and God into the promise land under his authority and law, or they could return to Egypt under a tyrannical form of government under pharaoh. A biblical principle is to overcome evil with good Rom 12 17-21 1 Peter 2 21-24. God looks for people to oppose injustice Ezk 22 29-20 such as tyrants. Rebellion to tyrants has been around since the origins of Christianity and supported by men like Augustine in the city of God and Thomas Aquinas in on kingship.

“As government actions become more and more evil, the cause of resistance towards government becomes more and more righteous.”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

“The duty to resist unjust law is the product of christian thought.”
--Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

“An unjust law, is no law at all.”
-Saint Agustin

You overcome tyrannical governments with Gods law of liberty James 1.5. God gave his preferred governmental system in the old Testament. The purpose of goverment is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination. God himself overthrow many tyrannical governments and instituted those who would follow his whole law James 2.10. His laws and not mans should be followed

Then Haman said to King Ahasuerus, “There is a certain people scattered and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of your kingdom; their laws are different from all other people’s, and they do not keep the king’s laws. Therefore it is not fitting for the king to let them remain.
-Ester 3.8

God gave rights and liberty to man being created in his image that are not to be violated by man. A violation of a God given unalienable right is a violation of man being created in the image of God. So man made government that has violated Gods laws for mankind is in rebellion towards the King of Kings. Any nation that follows Gods law will be blessed Deuteronomy 28.1-14 Psalm 33.12 and any nation that does not, will be cursed Deuteronomy 6 15-57.

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4

It is an abomination to kings to do evil,
for the throne is established by righteousness.
-Proverbs 16.12

Like a roaring lion or a charging bear
is a wicked ruler over a poor people.
-Proverbs 28.15

There are reasons for just war Ecclesiastes 3.8 proverbs 20.18 24.6 Numbers 21 21-24 Luke 14.32 Exodus 22.2 and the conquest narratives in Joshua for example. Jesus himself is often armed with a sword rev 19, 1 Chronicles 21:16, Joshua 5.13, Numbers 22.23 and others. In Judges 5.23 God condemns the Meroz who refused to fight his enemies. Jael was praised for killing the Canaanite general Sisera by driving a tent peg through his skull. God himself overthrow governments multiple times in the old Testament even by the use of warfare.

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3

Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord deceitfully,
And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood.
-Jeremiah 48.10

Stephen and Paul affirmed and commended Israel for fighting in those OT wars in acts 7.46 13 19 and Heb 11 33-34. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson, Esther, and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and restore Israel to the king of kings, and they were all praised in Hebrews 11.

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

When Jesus returns he will overthrow the governments of the world united against him.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [Jesus] was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.... out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.... the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
-Revelations 19

Other forms of resistance in the bible took place such as In acts chapter 5 Peter replied to the officials “We must obey God rather than human beings!” and they put Gods word above mans Acts 4.19. 2 Kings 11 the tyrant queen Athaliah declared treason against those who followed God and Jehoiada the priest had her executed. In Daniel 6 the prophet hears of an unjust law, and deliberate and openly rebels against the law that contradicted gods law. Jeremiah was arrested for treason for preaching gods word calling on Israel to surrender instead of going to war as the king wanted. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25 as did the midwives Hebrews 11.23. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo disobeyed government authority. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. In 2 Kings 1 the king sends captains to Elijah to come down from the hill to speak with the king [a very easy reasonable request]. Elijah and the angel of the lord [Jesus] by killing the kings men twice for a total of 100 men. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. And the men of god withstood king Uzziah

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18

“When the state commands that which God forbids, or forbids that which god commands, we are to obey God rather than man.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

God often sent prophets to Kings who stepped outside of gods law. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad to David, Isiah to Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 11 32-33 Paul escaped government officials rather than submit. In Acts 16 Paul ans Silas refused orders and told the magistrates to see them face and admit their unjust imprisonment. Jesus resisted authorities when they often tried to kill him. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. The early Christians fled instead of submitting to injustice Matt 10.23. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason

and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.
-Acts 17.7

And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.”
-Luke 23.2


The Maccabees Revolt

Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
-Psalm 144.1

Let the godly exult in glory;
let them sing for joy on their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their throats
and two-edged swords in their hands,
7 to execute vengeance on the nations
and punishments on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with chains
and their nobles with fetters of iron,
9 to execute on them the judgment written!
This is honor for all his godly ones.
Praise the Lord!
-Psalm 149 5-9

Jesus celebrated Hanukkah [festival of lights/ festival of dedication] in remembrance of the Maccabees refusal to confirm to the pagan government and society. The Maccabees are praised in the “hall of faith” in Hebrews 11 35-36 and v 38. In the books of Maccabees the Greek government over Israel sought to outlaw Judaism and assimilate Jews into the Greek culture so they would not be so rebellious. “Those who obey the Torah rather than the king were publicly put to death.” “Jerusalem was no longer free but became a slave.” The government authority wanted to recreate Jews in its own image as all centralized nations do 1 Macc 1.41. Those Jews that conformed with Greek culture and obeyed the government, were those who “hated their own nation.”

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
-Galatians 5.1

In this climate comes the celebrated Maccabees who fought a war of resistance against Greek rule who stayed separate as a people following the laws of Moses and would not conform to the governments demands. They fought battles and recaptured the temple. In 1 Macc 2 19-22 the Maccabees followed Moses laws and ordinances not the Kings. And in v 24 Mattathias driven by a righteous anger killed a assimilated Jew and one of the Kings officials and torn down government placed alters. In short

“They rescued the law out of the hands of the Gentiles and kings, and they never let the sinner gain the upper hand.”
-1 Macc 2.48

These were the actions of those praised in Hebrews 11 and that Jesus found cause to celebrate. And according to the Talmud, God did a miracle to keep the Menorah lit for eight days for those brave men who loved God more than Government.

Be strong, and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The Lord will do what is good in his sight.”
-2 Samuel 10.12

The American Revolution and the The Black Robed Regiment

It is time for You to act, O Lord,
For they have regarded Your law as void.
-Psalm 119.126

“The American revolution occurred in a religious atmosphere...historical truth that religion was a fundamental cause of the American Revolution.”
-Carl Bridenbaugh historian

“The righteous rebellion began in the churches before the streets of Boston...in 1776 mixing religion and politics was a common as drinking smuggled tea. The colonial clergy created the religious climate that made it possible for an American revolution to take place.”
-James Adams author journalist

The Bible and minsters, more than anything else, inspired patriotism to the revolution. In the great book by James P Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013, the author looks at 17,000 biblical citations, and over 500 sources from the colonies to find what was the major motivator for patriots in the revolution, the Bible was hands down the top motivator. The clergy had the most impact on how Americans viewed the war.

“The bible was accepted as the ultimate authority on economics and politics no less than on religion and morals.”
-Historian Christopher hill

As Byrd said “preachers turned their pulpits into weapons” igniting rebellion in the colonies to British tyrannical governmental policies. Pastors most often sited examples such as David, Deborah and Jael and the curse of Meroz in Judges 4-5, Moses and Exodus 14-15, Dut 32, 1 kings 12, 2 Sam 10.12, Jer 48.10 and many others as justification for the revolution. Further

“Rehoboam justified rebellion against a king....if any government violated the precepts of god and liberty, the people were obliged to rebel.”
-James P Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

God ordained government as the family and church, why than would he tell Christians to stay out of government? The pastors in America understood that tyranny at any level, left unchecked, would grow to tyranny against the church, and finally the gospel [we are seeing this in America today]. If the state is elevated above the family and church, it will in time wipe out those opposing god ordained institutions. That is why centralized government always attack the family and the church. It should not be allowed outside its biblical guidelines. If the state becomes the authority instead of the bible on what the state can do, than because there is no higher authority, than the government thinks itself god. There is nothing it cannot touch. It can take away any right from anyone. It thinks it must not just solve all the ills in the country, it must control all modes of behavior and set its own standards. It will regulate the lives to conform to its own image that is beneficial to itself, resulting in more power to itself. People became servants of the state rather than the government servants of its citizens. That is also why when government grows, people become less christian. When liberty grows, people become more christian. See

Government vs. God? People are less religious when government is bigger, research says

“It was the clergy who made the revolution meaningful for most common people.”
-Gordon S Wood The Great Republic history of the American People

“Colonist revered the bible...not only as a moral and religious guide but also as an authority on warfare.”
-James P Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

This is in drastic contrast to the founders who's view was Governments are instituted among men to protect those unalienable rights that come from a higher authority than man, that is god. The founders constantly acknowledged that biblical higher power that they were accountable to. Man was not the ultimate authority in fact all men were created equal. This philosophy that reorganizes a creator, produces a limited government. Government is not the ultimate authority but is to protect all citizens god given liberty as described in the bible. It also believes that man should alter and abolish a government that is destructive to those rights of the people.

“Pastors were the leaders of the revolution”
-David Barton The American Heritage Series

“Not only were minsters responsible for this kind of political speech, but they were leaders in it.”
-James P Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

“England sent her armies to compel submission, and the colonists appealed to haven.”
-John Thornton historian 1860

The black robed regiment was what the British during the American revolution called pastors who would lead their congregations out on the field of battle in their black robes. The British blamed the revolution on the pastors in America and treated them worse when captured compared to a regular soldier. They were blamed for leading the recruiting, and igniting the war. Churches were targeted and burned across America or converted into horse stables. When the British landed in NYC of the 19 churches 10 were burned and 9 were desecrated. King George said of the revolution “This is nothing more than a Presbyterian rebellion.” A British major said to colonial prisoners “It is your...damned religion of this country that ruined this country....damn your religion.”

3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’
-Ezekiel 33 3-6

The bible was read not just as a salvation only or a “spiritual” book, but as a practical book that was the model for all aspects of life, education, law, morality, politics, culture etc The pastors of early America saw themselves as shepherds of gods people and the watchmen of their flock in Ezekiel 33. When they saw an evil coming contrary to the bible, no mater from what sector, they sounded the alarm. Like Jesus and his disciples, they spoke against the evils of their day and applied proper biblical thinking, regardless if it was categorized as “political.” Think of the old testament period. Imagine Israel had a leader who preached the tolerance of homosexuality, God would respond by sending a prophet to speak Gods truth. Everything in the declaration of Independence such as all men created equal, the consent of the governed etc was already preached widely by pastors before 1776 for proper biblical government.

“The written constitution was the child of the pulpit.”
-Alice Baldwin the new England clergy and the American revolution

Likewise what the British were doing such as taxation without representation and the stamp act were shown to be forms of tyranny in the bible. These were the topics of many sermons in America that incited people towards the revolution. The reverend John Wise who preached these sermons was credited with the ideas that formed the declaration of independence. When John Adams was asked who was most responsible for the revolution he named the Rev Samuel Cooper, the rev John Mayhew, the Rev George Witfeild, and the Rev Charles Chauncy.

“The preachers of the revolution did not hesitate to attack the great political and social evils of their day.”
-Frank Moore historian 1862

“Ministers led the fight for both religious and civil liberties.”
-Stephen McDowell The Bible America's Source of law and Liberty Providence Foundation 2016
In Paul Reverse famous ride he rode to the home of the rev Jonas Clark to warn the British were coming. The reason being Clark was the most important political figure in the area in Lexington and Sam Adams and John Hancock were at his house as they often were. Clark helped write the resolution for Massachusetts to separate from britian and also his state constitution. When word came that the British were coming Adams and Hancock asked Clark are your men ready? He answered “ I trained them for this very hour.” The alarm bells rang, the bells were from Clarks church where he was pastor to worn the people and to assembled outside the church. 150 people gathered at the church all men from his congregation and they go off to resits the British. Clark tells his men to let the British firs first because God would not bless an offensive war but you can defend yourself.

Other pastors like John Muhlenburg of Virginia helped raise units and eventually earned the rank of major general. While pasturing his church Muhlenburg gave his last sermon by reading from Ecclesiastes 3declaring there is a time for peace, but that time is know gone, know is a time for war. He took off his robes and underneath he was wearing his military uniform with his pistols, he asked his congregation, who will come with me? 300 of his congregation joined him. His brother Frederick was also a pastor and while pastor served as Americas first speaker of the house of representatives. Pastor James Calwdell would fight during the week and than give sermons on sundays fully armed with two pistols daring anyone to take them from him while giving the sermon. Once a battle happened outside his church and him and his congregation were running out of wadding so he ran into the church grabbed the hymnals by Isaac Watts, and yelled “give them watts.”

“No class of men contributed more to carry forward the revolution and to achieve our independence than did the ministers.”
-B.F Morris historian 1864

“Preachers were the staunchest defenders of the cause of America.”
-James P Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

What About the Sermon on the Mount?

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[Means properly understand and interpret] 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-Mathew 5

Jesus called his followers to be the salt of the earth. Salt is an irritant. Put salt in your eyes, a wound or in your drink. Christ and the early Christians were killed for their faith because of their boldness and for irritating the powers that be of this world under the rule of satan the god of this world. In today's world we play “nice” and get along with the cultural and the world and satan rules more and more. What about the sermon on the mount where Jesus calls us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek? Many seem to think these are new commands to believers part of the new covenant and thus the old moral code and laws no longer apply. However there is nothing new here, Jesus is simply giving the proper understanding of various OT laws, The OT teaches the same principles.

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
-Leviticus 19.18

30 let him give his cheek to the one who strikes,
and let him be filled with insults.
-Lamentations 3.30

“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.
-Exodus 23 4-5

Therefore any events or actions during the Old Testament God saw as consistent [as did Jesus in his sermon on the mount] with the principles of loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek. This same Old Testament allowed for the death penalty, the conquest of Canaan and the overthrow of multiple tyrannical governments. The NT does not bring about new laws [ but a new covenant] and is salvation centered, while the OT is where God laid out his political laws. I think our modern understanding of the sermon on the mount is off. I also think our modern ideas of what love is [usually being nice] is not God's idea of love is. For example Elijah made fun of the prophets of Baal in 1 kings. In Psalm 69 24- 28 David prays his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life. Paul wished anyone who preaches contrary to the gospel to be cursed 1Galatians 1 8-9 and in 5.12 he wishes they would be castrated. In 2 Timothy 4:14 Paul hopes Alexander the Coppersmith would be repaid for his evil works. And in acts 13.10

Then Saul—also called Paul—filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer 10 and said, “You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won’t you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?

Jesus used harsh language and often insulted the authorities and his enemies. Calling them vipers, evil, sons of the devil, a fox etc Matt 23.37 12.34 Luke 13.3 John 8.44 Matt 7.6. He also threatened unrepentant men with judgment and hell fire mark 12.9 matt 21.4 11 21-24 18.6.

So when Jesus said “Turn the other cheek”

“”Christ is not directly addressing questions of government and criminal justice in this passage but is speaking of the attitude that individual Christians ought to strive to take toward injustice he suffers. And that is how the passage has traditionally been understood.”
-Edward Fesser Joseph M Bessette by man shall his blood be shed Ignatius press San Francisco 2017

“What Jesus here demands of his followers is a personal attitude to evildoers which is promoted by mercy not justice, witch renounces retaliation so compelling us to risk further costly suffering, which is governed never by desire to cause them harm but always by the determination to serve their highest good”
-John Scott

In John 18 when Jesus himself was slapped in the face he challenged the man's reasons who slapped him. When Paul was slapped in the face in acts chapter 23 he replied

“Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall!”

Are we not to resist evil doers? Jesus contently resisted evil doers. He did this in the temple with the money changers. He did this by casting out demons. Peter resisted Simon magus acts 8. Paul stands up to Elymas in acts 13. We are to overcome evil with good [Rom 12 17-21 1 peter 2 21-24]. In the sermon on the mount Jesus did not get rid of judicial proportionality [eye for eye] or oath tacking, neither did Jesus do away with punishments as he often preached hell fire. Instead he calls us to be generous and forgiving, seeking reconciliation. He is prohibiting a cycle of insults among citizens. Augustine said

“The old precept as well as the new is intended to check the vehemence of hatred and to curb the impetuosity of angry passion...to put a restraint upon a revenges unjust from its excess, the law established the principle of compensation, that the penalty should correspond to the injury inflicted. So the precepts “and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” instead of to kindle the fire that was quenched, was rather a covering to prevent the fire already kindled from spreading.”

The Sermon on the Mount and Vengeance vs Justice

“What is here commanded is a christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than indulge the desire of revenge, but what is further added does not strickley obey according to the letter, for neither did Christ, nor Paul turn the other check”
-Robert Witham and Richard Challoner

Vengeance is a sin and inconstant with loving your enemies. But if motivated by justice , or a desired good outcome, it is not a evil. Giving gifts for good behavior and consequences for bad actions is normal human thought. Christians should be angry at the evils of the world and violations of Gods law, God himself is angry at them this is a good thing showing us created in the image of God. When a robber goes through a house raping, stealing, torturing and finally murdering woman children and men, that should arose anger for its injustice. Therefore if you motives are justice, than that is not a revenge instance.

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
-Isaiah 61.8

Forgiveness and Justice


As Christians we are called to forgive as our father forgives us on a personal level between individuals. On a personal level we are always called to forgive when they repent.

So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sistera sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
-Luke 17 3-4

Therefore repent! Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth. I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.... 22 Look! I will throw her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her practices. 23 I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
-Revelations 2 16, 22-23

Than we can be like our father in haven.

Yahweh—Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth, 7 maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave the guilty unpunished
-Exodus 34 6-7

But forgiveness does not mean we dont work against evil and certainty that we don't condone it or allow it. While we are to forgive all, it is not a blind forgiveness that overrides justice and punishments for law breakers and an allowance to sin. God himself sends unrepentant sinners to eternal punishment. Jesus himself did not blindly forgive Mark 14.21 Matt 12.31. Yet even those who repent still must face justice. A distinction is made by God between individual forgiveness, and laws to govern society.

“It is indeed praiseworthy for victims of crime to forgive their debtors, but such personal pardon does not absolve offenders from their obligations to justice. The relationship of the state to the criminal is not the same as that of a victim to an assailant. Governors and judges are responsible for maintaining a just public order.”
-Cardinal Avery Bulles

“Christianity is a fighting religion. I

Does Romans 13 Teach Unlimited Submission to Government?


Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
-Romans 13 1-7


Context


“Modern interpretations of Romans 13 is really quite recent....no Bible passages was ever intended to be taken out of context from the rest of scripture.”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011


“Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.
-Jeremiah 17.5

In Israel history the law of God was the government. Kings, Judges, elders were all under the authority of the law. In the old testament Israel to follow Gods law was to live under God himself, as their ultimate sovereign. To follow the law was to have God as king in Israel.


16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
-Exodus 18.16

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

The God of Israel said,The Rock of Israel spoke to me:‘He who rules over men must be just,Ruling in the fear of God.
-2 Samuel 23.3 [also see 1 kings 10.9]


God created government to benefit man Dt 10.13, not man to benefit government. The purpose of the law is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination 1 sam 12 .14. I think our modern version of the “divine right of kings” can be very dangerous and can lead to sever consequences. Romans 13 was used by the church in Germany during ww2 as a reason to submit to Hitler. One pastor who spoke out and was killed for it Dietrich Bonhoeffer rightly said “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
-Edmund Burke

The protestant reformation would never had happened since it was a rebellion against church and civil authority. It would be odd if God approved of a government that violated his cause and purpose he ordained it to do. If Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission, that would put God against himself and would allow tyrants to rule opposed to his law of justice and peace. It would say God is honoring and helping that witch he says is evil. When a pastor does an evil or a father it is understood as Christians to not to submit to that authority, but if the government does it their authority is not to be challenged. If we obey all the laws and submit to the state, we are making the state God and the highest authority. This is the goal of atheistic progressives and the result of government education

“Many people today are unconsciousley schooled in statism. They think the authority of the civil government is absolute and limitless. They think that rights and law originate with the state.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

Israel rejected gods decentralized union of tribes with elected officials in a republican form of government and In Samuel 8.7 God says Israel has rejected him for wanting a centralized monarchy and goes on to tell them of the freedoms lost in their choice.

“Bureaucracy of centralized government grew from almost nothing under Saul to a much more developed structure under Solomon...[Israel underwent] a transition from a somewhat decentralized tribal society to a centralized rule of a king from a capital city.”
-Micheal A Grisanti Professor of old Testament masters Seminary

All Governments today such as the U.S.A are the result of some kind of revolution or overthrow of a previous government. If it is unlawful to overthrow a government than today's governments cannot be legitimate and thus we cannot submit to them as they have no authority. If they are lawful now, than who is to say another overthrow is not lawful or ordained by God? Government started after the fall to protect mankind not to harm them. In Romans 13 Paul is correcting an early christian belief that Jesus did away with Gods law [ the entirety of it, moral, political, etc] than surely no human laws are binding on man either. Paul says this is not the case and the liberty from the sacrificial/dietary laws or at least, the condemnation of the law, are not a license to do as we will and spends the next few chapter on this.

“Paul command to submit to god ordained higher powers simply reaffirms the old testament descriptions of what legitimate government constitutes...Christians were not to use freedom in Christ as an excuses to avoid civil obligations in society of seeking and manning peace.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

Verse 1

“All this exists by the providential will of god. But their providential existence is not the same as having Gods' approval.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4

Romans 13 is not about tyrannical governments or the current roman empire Paul was under. V 1 The powers are meant to enforce Gods law not their own. God instituted government as his minsters [as he did the church and family] and it is right that Christians to obey and acknowledge this, Christians cannot be anarchists [also see book of Judges]. It would be a mistake to assume from V 1 “is” and conclude from it that “it ought to be” the existence of something like a tyrannical government does not make it a right. For example poverty exists, and Christians fight against it, death and disease are here, Jesus fought against them while on earth. Many families and churches misuse their God ordained purpose, that does not make it correct. In 1 Samuel 8 God called a monarchy and evil, he said Israel was rejecting him by accepting that form of government, and yet God ordained it. The right thing to do would be to oppose abuses of god ordained purposes. The example Absalom and King David. God showed those who followed Absalom did so wrongly 2 Sam 16.8 17.14.

“Absalom conspiratorial tactics to rise to power in place of his righteous father, King David did not equate to God-ordained ministerial authority. Even though Absalom held de facto power and the alliance of the kingdom.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

God used his people to do this very thing many times, for example Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. Elijah to King Ahab. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and were all praised in Hebrews 11. The midwives, Daniel, Esther and Gideon did the same. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo as well disobeyed government authority. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. I Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason.

“Higher powers [KJV] are always “under “ or “below” god and never posses gods approval when it contradicts the good purposes of which God ordained government. To hold to the contrary is like saying since God created the power of fire, one can use fire to burn down the homes of his neighbors.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011


V2

Verse two is speaking not on specific tyrants but the concept of government. Christians cannot be anarchist to oppose government authorities is to oppose Gods will since he created government. For example the midwives on Exodus15-21 were praised for disobedience in Heb 11.23 when Egypt had turned tyrannical. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Danial disobeyed his King in Babylon. Many other examples could be given. The fact is Paul is dealing with the concept of government, not a specific government.


V3-4

“There are limitations clauses attached to what the apostle Paul says in Romans 13. V3-4 clearly limit the rulers authority”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

God established law to do his will not theirs. This is what governments should resemble and what is in their jurisdiction. The word “servant” is the same word for deacon. A servant serves his master's will [God] not his own, and the master decided the rules and punishments, that is Gods law. So for example, in Gods law the parents are to educate their children Deuteronomy 6 and Proverbs 22.6. If the state were to educate children they are know stepping outside of their role given by God and in violation of his law. Instead gods servant aught to serve him. This passage is not about dictators or tyrants serving themselves. Satan is called a “higher power” in Ephesians 2.2 as in Romans 3.3. Do we submit to his power? Or do we resits his authority as James 4.7 tells us to do as Peter did in Acts 4 18-19 and also

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18

“Wrongdoers” are those who who violate the peace and rights of the people. Physical force even to the death penalty can be used by the God ordained state towards those who trample on the god given rights of those peaceful people. This is the sole duty of government.

“Nothing is stated here, or anywhere in the Bible for that matter, witch would expand the rights of the state beyond this simple mandate. Punish wrongdoers with the sword if necessary.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

Paul was not speaking of the current empire in Rome. If he was he was a false prophet as he said if you do good works you will not have fear of the sword but receive praise. Yet Nero killed thousands just for being Christians. They got the opposite of what Paul predicted. Rome is described as the enemy of god in Daniel 7.7 and spoken of negativity in revelation not as Gods servant. Rome killed Jesus, Paul and Peter those who most spread the gospel.


V5

Given he above, V5 just means a biblical government deserves the support of all believers.


V6-7


“Caesar may inscribe a picture on a piece of gold, but where Caesar has stolen gold from a rightful holder, it cannot be rightly stated that Caesar is owed the gold coin.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

Those who are “attending to this very thing” are obeying God. This of course does not make all tax just. If not in line with Gods law. So if a tyrant decides to take a tax from Christians outside biblical law. Such as say a tax to pay for the state to educate children in humanistic, atheistic, materialistic, statist, evolutionary philosophies. That would be an unjust tax. It would be similar to a spectator at a football game who throws his won yellow card on the field when he thinks a call should be made, its not his jurisdiction.

“Nothing in the entire passage has any reference to wicked rulers. It says not one word about rebellious magistrates.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“May God be pleased to rid us even in our day from sissified, christinish, play time religion.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“Were God to ordain actions which he condemns, God would violate his covenants to all nations and would sanction on one hand what he has condemned on the other.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

SkyWriting said:

After you.

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Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God


dont be shy, go ahead. It seems you realize just linking to passages you take out of context to try and prove your point no longer work.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

only a tyrannical government that rules its people can force conformity and subjugation.

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Songs of RRJ, verse 5 was it?

Tolkien R.R.J said:

All Governments today such as the U.S.A are the result of some kind of revolution or overthrow of a previous government.

Click to expand...

The USA is not a holy entity. Cute attempt at emotional play.


1540, October 18, Mabila Massacre (Alabama): The Choctaw retaliated against Hernando de Soto's expedition killing 200 soldiers. In return, De Soto burned down Mabila compound and killed c. 2,500 Indians who had hidden in houses.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

Romans 13 was used by the church in Germany during ww2 as a reason to submit to Hitler.

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Jesus submitted to Pilate and the Son of God was crucified.
I'm not complaining that Jesus does not support Civil Disobedience.