“...be in subjection to the governing authorities” Romans 13

SkyWriting said:

Nothing on civil disobedience here.

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Keep reading my friend. Must set the stage and context.

SkyWriting said:

That is the wrong conclusion. Local law comes first. Under local law you must follow Gods law as written in your heart. "We ought to obey God rather than men" is Peter telling the council of bishops and the High Priest in particular to "Take a Hike".

He is saying that the Religious council has zero authority over the actions of man.
They rank below local law and below God's law. They have zero authority.
And I agree.

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This is reveling, its about replacing the church with government.

timewerx said:

Right!

Romans 13 is culture, period, and region specific as many of Paul's teachings are.

"If you do what is good you have nothing to fear from the authorities...."

We all know that NOT true in every situation. In some countries, a Christian can be sent to jail for doing what is good.

Not everything of Paul's teaching apply to every audience. Even Paul himself gave a "soft disclaimer" of his teaching style being culture/region specific. Even his letters are intended for specific recipients.... It's not a "one size fits all" message.

.

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see post 8 for Romans 13

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

I think it is government, but it does not teach unlimited submission either.

Jason0047 said:

So let me get this straight, if local law or government law told you to ignore God's laws you would favor local law and the government?

Would you take the mark of the beast because it was a government law?

As for the phrase in Acts: Well, the Jews used to be a nation. We are also told to obey our masters or bosses in Scripture (Again if it does not conflict with Scripture). Also, the Jewish high priests during that time were considered leaders or rulers of the Jewish people to the apostles. Even Paul recognizes that he should not speak against his own Jewish leaders (Acts of the Apostles 23:5). But they disobeyed them because their laws and ways conflicting with God's laws.

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he wished to replace god with government.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

no that is here.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God


I posted those verses as you know and dodged to show not all leaders are appointed by God as you claimed, divine right of kings of the catholic tradition.

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That post is a page of goop washed ashore on the beach, and not scripture.
I don't care to know who those commentary people are or what McBees is about.

BobRyan said:

And in Romans 13 Jesus says to obey the government. In the case of Rom 13 -- it is one of the most oppressive and violent governments that ever existed in history.

And in that context - the Word of God commands "obedience". So unless government wants you to break one of the Ten Commandments -- or any other part of the moral law of God that defines what sin is -- you are under moral obligation to comply with the government's law according to Rom 13.

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and jesus rebelled to that government

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God



Does Romans 13 Teach Unlimited Submission to Government?


Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
-Romans 13 1-7


Context


“Modern interpretations of Romans 13 is really quite recent....no Bible passages was ever intended to be taken out of context from the rest of scripture.”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011


“Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.
-Jeremiah 17.5

In Israel history the law of God was the government. Kings, Judges, elders were all under the authority of the law. In the old testament Israel to follow Gods law was to live under God himself, as their ultimate sovereign. To follow the law was to have God as king in Israel.


16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
-Exodus 18.16

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

The God of Israel said,The Rock of Israel spoke to me:‘He who rules over men must be just,Ruling in the fear of God.
-2 Samuel 23.3 [also see 1 kings 10.9]


God created government to benefit man Dt 10.13, not man to benefit government. The purpose of the law is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination 1 sam 12 .14. I think our modern version of the “divine right of kings” can be very dangerous and can lead to sever consequences. Romans 13 was used by the church in Germany during ww2 as a reason to submit to Hitler. One pastor who spoke out and was killed for it Dietrich Bonhoeffer rightly said “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
-Edmund Burke

The protestant reformation would never had happened since it was a rebellion against church and civil authority. It would be odd if God approved of a government that violated his cause and purpose he ordained it to do. If Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission, that would put God against himself and would allow tyrants to rule opposed to his law of justice and peace. It would say God is honoring and helping that witch he says is evil. When a pastor does an evil or a father it is understood as Christians to not to submit to that authority, but if the government does it their authority is not to be challenged. If we obey all the laws and submit to the state, we are making the state God and the highest authority. This is the goal of atheistic progressives and the result of government education

“Many people today are unconsciousley schooled in statism. They think the authority of the civil government is absolute and limitless. They think that rights and law originate with the state.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

Israel rejected gods decentralized union of tribes with elected officials in a republican form of government and In Samuel 8.7 God says Israel has rejected him for wanting a centralized monarchy and goes on to tell them of the freedoms lost in their choice.

“Bureaucracy of centralized government grew from almost nothing under Saul to a much more developed structure under Solomon...[Israel underwent] a transition from a somewhat decentralized tribal society to a centralized rule of a king from a capital city.”
-Micheal A Grisanti Professor of old Testament masters Seminary

All Governments today such as the U.S.A are the result of some kind of revolution or overthrow of a previous government. If it is unlawful to overthrow a government than today's governments cannot be legitimate and thus we cannot submit to them as they have no authority. If they are lawful now, than who is to say another overthrow is not lawful or ordained by God? Government started after the fall to protect mankind not to harm them. In Romans 13 Paul is correcting an early christian belief that Jesus did away with Gods law [ the entirety of it, moral, political, etc] than surely no human laws are binding on man either. Paul says this is not the case and the liberty from the sacrificial/dietary laws or at least, the condemnation of the law, are not a license to do as we will and spends the next few chapter on this.

“Paul command to submit to god ordained higher powers simply reaffirms the old testament descriptions of what legitimate government constitutes...Christians were not to use freedom in Christ as an excuses to avoid civil obligations in society of seeking and manning peace.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

Verse 1

“All this exists by the providential will of god. But their providential existence is not the same as having Gods' approval.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4

Romans 13 is not about tyrannical governments or the current roman empire Paul was under. V 1 The powers are meant to enforce Gods law not their own. God instituted government as his minsters [as he did the church and family] and it is right that Christians to obey and acknowledge this, Christians cannot be anarchists [also see book of Judges]. It would be a mistake to assume from V 1 “is” and conclude from it that “it ought to be” the existence of something like a tyrannical government does not make it a right. For example poverty exists, and Christians fight against it, death and disease are here, Jesus fought against them while on earth. Many families and churches misuse their God ordained purpose, that does not make it correct. In 1 Samuel 8 God called a monarchy and evil, he said Israel was rejecting him by accepting that form of government, and yet God ordained it. The right thing to do would be to oppose abuses of god ordained purposes. The example Absalom and King David. God showed those who followed Absalom did so wrongly 2 Sam 16.8 17.14.

“Absalom conspiratorial tactics to rise to power in place of his righteous father, King David did not equate to God-ordained ministerial authority. Even though Absalom held de facto power and the alliance of the kingdom.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

God used his people to do this very thing many times, for example Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. Elijah to King Ahab. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and were all praised in Hebrews 11. The midwives, Daniel, Esther and Gideon did the same. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo as well disobeyed government authority. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. I Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason.

“Higher powers [KJV] are always “under “ or “below” god and never posses gods approval when it contradicts the good purposes of which God ordained government. To hold to the contrary is like saying since God created the power of fire, one can use fire to burn down the homes of his neighbors.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011


V2

Verse two is speaking not on specific tyrants but the concept of government. Christians cannot be anarchist to oppose government authorities is to oppose Gods will since he created government. For example the midwives on Exodus15-21 were praised for disobedience in Heb 11.23 when Egypt had turned tyrannical. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Danial disobeyed his King in Babylon. Many other examples could be given. The fact is Paul is dealing with the concept of government, not a specific government.


V3-4

“There are limitations clauses attached to what the apostle Paul says in Romans 13. V3-4 clearly limit the rulers authority”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

God established law to do his will not theirs. This is what governments should resemble and what is in their jurisdiction. The word “servant” is the same word for deacon. A servant serves his master's will [God] not his own, and the master decided the rules and punishments, that is Gods law. So for example, in Gods law the parents are to educate their children Deuteronomy 6 and Proverbs 22.6. If the state were to educate children they are know stepping outside of their role given by God and in violation of his law. Instead gods servant aught to serve him. This passage is not about dictators or tyrants serving themselves. Satan is called a “higher power” in Ephesians 2.2 as in Romans 3.3. Do we submit to his power? Or do we resits his authority as James 4.7 tells us to do as Peter did in Acts 4 18-19 and also

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18

“Wrongdoers” are those who who violate the peace and rights of the people. Physical force even to the death penalty can be used by the God ordained state towards those who trample on the god given rights of those peaceful people. This is the sole duty of government.

“Nothing is stated here, or anywhere in the Bible for that matter, witch would expand the rights of the state beyond this simple mandate. Punish wrongdoers with the sword if necessary.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

Paul was not speaking of the current empire in Rome. If he was he was a false prophet as he said if you do good works you will not have fear of the sword but receive praise. Yet Nero killed thousands just for being Christians. They got the opposite of what Paul predicted. Rome is described as the enemy of god in Daniel 7.7 and spoken of negativity in revelation not as Gods servant. Rome killed Jesus, Paul and Peter those who most spread the gospel.


V5

Given he above, V5 just means a biblical government deserves the support of all believers.


V6-7


“Caesar may inscribe a picture on a piece of gold, but where Caesar has stolen gold from a rightful holder, it cannot be rightly stated that Caesar is owed the gold coin.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

Those who are “attending to this very thing” are obeying God. This of course does not make all tax just. If not in line with Gods law. So if a tyrant decides to take a tax from Christians outside biblical law. Such as say a tax to pay for the state to educate children in humanistic, atheistic, materialistic, statist, evolutionary philosophies. That would be an unjust tax. It would be similar to a spectator at a football game who throws his won yellow card on the field when he thinks a call should be made, its not his jurisdiction.

“Nothing in the entire passage has any reference to wicked rulers. It says not one word about rebellious magistrates.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“May God be pleased to rid us even in our day from sissified, christinish, play time religion.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“Were God to ordain actions which he condemns, God would violate his covenants to all nations and would sanction on one hand what he has condemned on the other.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

Tolkien R.R.J said:

This is reveling, its about replacing the church with government.

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"We ought to obey God rather than men" is Peter telling the council of bishops and the High Priest in particular to "Take a Hike".

I didn't write the passage.

SkyWriting said:

My point exactly. You have nothing to gain rebelling against the country you are in.
A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

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only a tyrannical government that rules its people can force conformity and subjugation.

SkyWriting said:

That post is a page of goop washed ashore on the beach, and not scripture.
I don't care to know who those commentary people are or what McBees is about.

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once more you revel to much

“People dont believe lies because they have to, but because they want to”
-Malcolm Muggeridge

timothyu said:

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

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Nothing on civil disobedience here.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

only a tyrannical government that rules its people can force conformity and subjugation.

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...said no one in the Bible...ever.

Romans 12,19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Matthew 26,52
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Matthew 5,38
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil.

Tolkien R.R.J said:

once more you revel to much

“People dont believe lies because they have to, but because they want to”
-Malcolm Muggeridge

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Ya....I don't care to know who these people are you quote or what they say. If I want a Muggles opinion, I'd invite him to the chat room.

SkyWriting said:

Nothing on civil disobedience here.

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Explain

Tolkien R.R.J said:

this has to do with slavery, not government. Slavery was private property.

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Sorry, the topic is legal authority. Slavery is one example.

timothyu said:

Explain

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Nothing on civil disobedience here. Null set.

SkyWriting said:

Sin is an internal dialogue between you and God.
There are clues, but it is mostly invisible.
Believers sins are washed clean by Jesus blood.

1 Samuel 16,7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

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So your answer is no they are not sins?

Optimistic lol

Tolkien R.R.J said:

I posted those verses as you know and dodged to show not all leaders are appointed by God as you claimed, divine right of kings of the catholic tradition.

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NOW you getting to the exact point! Splendid!
I didn't pick any of these passages myself.
And they are not chosen by any group or denomination.
They are created by a non-biased computer search program.
This is why your claims of lies and deception are hilarious!
I didn't pick any of these "Out of context". The passages are chosen
becasue they deal with the topic you search for.

What Does the Bible Say About Leaders Are Appointed By God?
What Does the Bible Say About Government?
What Does the Bible Say About Law?