Do We Sleeping Until Judgement

Der Alte · Jan 27, 2019

…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
. . .
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word מָשָׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword:: . . .
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred to this passage considered it to be factual.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Yes, but where is your soul and spirit? Absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Some believe that the soul and spirit are mortal, just as is the body. That the soul and spirit die along with the body; that, subsequently, the soul and spirit (together with the body) are resurrected when Christ returns.
Then there are others who believe that "soul" simply means "person", and "spirit" simply means breath.

The phrase "absent from the body and present with the Lord" would actually fit with a generous range of interpretations. It certainly fits with what @Saint Steven is saying, but it equally fits with what I'm saying:

When I die, my body will be returned to the earth. But I am convinced that when Christ returns, I will be resurrected.

So, there will be a day when my body will have turned to dust, and my breath (life) will no longer be present, and my personhood will be no more than the memories of the few souls who loved me.
But a later time will come when - if what I believe is true - I will be resurrected alongside all the others who died in Christ, with our new glorified bodies. Our lives and our personhoods restored to us by Christ

So even in my materialistic belief, I recognise that my soul (personhood) and my spirit (breath/life) are in the safekeeping of (and present with) the LORD. But this recognition doesn't require me to experience that safekeeping, either after I die or before the Resurrection.
It is - in the most glorious sense - a legal truth.

I hope that makes sense, and adequately explains my position. Peace to you if you disagree.

David_AB · Jan 28, 2019

greenguzzi said:
"Sheol", "the grave", "lower regions of the earth", "heart of the land", these are all synonyms (or euphemisms?) for that place we go when we die. I think I would use the "grave" if I wanted to give the same sense in modern English. So I don't think that really adds anything either way to the discussion.

However 1 Peter 3:19 is possibly the most convincing Biblical quote to support your argument. But I'm still not convinced by it yet. It's too complex to explain why at the moment. So I'll just say two things about it for now:
The word "spirit" (pneuma) is ambiguous, it may not mean the souls of the dead.
According to Luke 23:43, Jesus went to paradise after He died.

Isn't 1 Peter 3:19 referring to the fallen angels imprisoned in Tartarus?
Those that left their natural estate.
See Jude 1:6.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

David_AB said:
Isn't 1 Peter 3:19 referring to the fallen angels imprisoned in Tartarus?
Those that left their natural estate.
See Jude 1:6.

Yes, that makes sense to me. I am open to having my mind changed, but that fits with my thoughts.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Der Alter said:
…..In Isa 14

Just a suggestion, but you might make more of an impact if you used the quotation regimen that is built into this forum.
When you don't use it, as you fail to do, it is only obsessives like me who bother to read what you have to say. I'm sure a wider audience would be more profitable for you.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Yes, that's correct. I think the view of the afterlife that Jesus gives is intentional. The story is about two men with two different destinies in the afterlife. The comparisons are quite remarkable.

...and really useful in THIS life. Which, I think, is the point.

Saint Steven · Jan 28, 2019

greenguzzi said:
Some believe that the soul and spirit are mortal, just as is the body. That the soul and spirit die along with the body; that, subsequently, the soul and spirit (together with the body) are resurrected when Christ returns.
Then there are others who believe that "soul" simply means "person", and "spirit" simply means breath.

The phrase "absent from the body and present with the Lord" would actually fit with a generous range of interpretations. It certainly fits with what @Saint Steven is saying, but it equally fits with what I'm saying:

When I die, my body will be returned to the earth. But I am convinced that when Christ returns, I will be resurrected.

So, there will be a day when my body will have turned to dust, and my breath (life) will no longer be present, and my personhood will be no more than the memories of the few souls who loved me.
But a later time will come when - if what I believe is true - I will be resurrected alongside all the others who died in Christ, with our new glorified bodies. Our lives and our personhoods restored to us by Christ

So even in my materialistic belief, I recognise that my soul (personhood) and my spirit (breath/life) are in the safekeeping of (and present with) the LORD. But this recognition doesn't require me to experience that safekeeping, either after I die or before the Resurrection.
It is - in the most glorious sense - a legal truth.

I hope that makes sense, and adequately explains my position. Peace to you if you disagree.

Thanks for sharing. It's good to explore different views. As I read this I was remembering what you said about Christ going to Paradise after his death. He was telling the theif on the cross next to him that he would be there as well. Although I guess there are different opinions there as well. Having to do with the placement of a comma. (not present in the Greek) Anyway...

Here's my take on the body/soul/spirit issue. We all seem to agree on what the body is. This mortal physical container that will perish some day. There also seems to be some level of agreement about our spirit inhabiting a spiritual body at some point in the afterlife. The area of widest disagreement seems to be about the soul. So, I will focus on that. And this is my personal take on this. Derived from both biblical and secular sources.

I am fascinated by stories of Near Death Experiences (NDEs). Especially the stories of patients in Emergency Room situations where they remember observing themselves being worked on as if they are floating above the situation. The medical industry is fascinated too. They have begun to study this phenomenon more closely. How is it that a person's conscious self is able, in some situations, to observe their physical self?

On occasion I will joke around with the question, "If you had a brain transplant, who would you be?" In a very real sense, our mind represents who we are, even MORE than our body does. I think of our brain as a physical hard drive. Similar to the hard drive (HD) on a computer. I have done this, and you may have done it too. I'll get a new computer, but I will transfer the data from my old computer onto the new computer's hard drive (brain). I think this is a good example of what will happen with our spiritual bodies. The mind from our physical body will be transferred onto the "brain" (HD) of the new spiritual body.

All this to say that I believe that the soul is our mind. The part of us that makes us who we are. The part that is still responsible for the life we lived in the physical realm. The part that bears our name and will answer to it. From that perspective, I can't accept the idea that the soul is simply the physical life breath that expires when we do. The soul "departs", but not to an unconscious nonexistence. IMHO

Saint Steven · Jan 28, 2019

greenguzzi said:
...and really useful in THIS life. Which, I think, is the point.

I find this part the most fascinating. Especially in comparison to the other scripture below.

Luke 16:26-28
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Compare.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Saint Steven · Jan 28, 2019

greenguzzi said:
Just a suggestion, but you might make more of an impact if you used the quotation regimen that is built into this forum.
When you don't use it, as you fail to do, it is only obsessives like me who bother to read what you have to say. I'm sure a wider audience would be more profitable for you.

To add to that.
The "Reply" button quotes the post you want to respond to. The "Quote" button only copies the post for insertion in a new post.

Der Alte · Jan 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
To add to that.
The "Reply" button quotes the post you want to respond to. The "Quote" button only copies the post for insertion in a new post.

I have been at this forum for almost 2 decades, I have been posting in the manner I do for that length of time. Nobody has ever criticized this before. Think I'll keep doing it the way I do.

Saint Steven · Jan 28, 2019

Der Alter said:
I have been at this forum for almost 2 decades, I have been posting in the manner I do for that length of time. Nobody has ever criticized this before. Think I'll keep doing it the way I do.

Not a criticism.
I was offering help. If you didn't need help that's fine.
I enjoy your posts; please continue in your usual manner. Thanks.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I find this part the most fascinating. Especially in comparison to the other scripture below.

The problem with that comparison is that it only works in English. In the original Greek they are two different words:
Luke 16 = diaperaó = through - the other side = to cross over
John 5 = metabainó = after - walk = to depart

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Der Alter said:
I have been at this forum for almost 2 decades, I have been posting in the manner I do for that length of time. Nobody has ever criticized this before. Think I'll keep doing it the way I do.

greenguzzi said:
Just a suggestion

No criticism. As I said straight up, just a suggestion. You do it the way that makes you happy.

Washed Luminary · Jan 28, 2019

David_AB said:
I heard something the other day I'd never even thought of and that is when we die, what happens?
i.e. Are we judged immediately and go to heaven/hell
Or do we sleep until judgement day when we are raised a judged.

In Acts chapter 7 when Stephen was stoned to death he "fell asleep".
When Lazarus was raised from the dead after 3 days, nothing is recorded as to what he said.
Did he sleep or did he experience heaven?

The story of Lazarus and the rich man implies when we die we go to heaven or hell. However is this just a parable to explain that even when someone is raised from the dead some still won't believe.

I'm sure there are many passages in the bible that would make an argument for both cases but I wondered what others thoughts on this were.

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine as do most conditionalists (those who say that the wicked are judged and don't exist anymore). But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation. This means that after death a person ceases to exist. At the future resurrection, they maintain that the soul is made again. Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual. The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.

The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

Eccl. 9:5, For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of its own commentary, which says at the opening of the book, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?" (Eccl. 1:1-3). The writer is telling us how things are from the human perspective, from "under the sun." He is not telling us doctrinal statements about whether or not the soul continues after death. Besides, it's a mistake to use the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament. It is the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament.

In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord. Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.

Luke 23:42–43 is the account of where Jesus was being crucified. Jesus speaks to the criminal on his right and says "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."Jesus was saying that he and the criminal would be together in paradise. Some Respond to this and say that Jesus was emphasizing that he was speaking right then and there, "today." But, that position can only be held by those who presuppose a form of soul sleep. Of course, it was obvious that Jesus was speaking to him. But Jesus is saying to the criminal that he will be with Jesus in paradise today.

In addition when we look at the account of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, we clearly see Jesus using the imagery of consciousness after death. If soul sleep is true, what was Jesus doing relating the account of two individuals who were both conscious after their death?

In Revelation 6:10 we see the account of people being conscious after death and asking God, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” This is before the resurrection. Here gain we have another account of consciousness after physical death.

Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect. The soul continues on after death in a conscious state. The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
All this to say that I believe that the soul is our mind.

The word translated as "soul" in the NT is "psuché" (ψυχή).
Strong's says "Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual."

Psuché is where we get the first part of the English word "psychology" from. So you might be onto something.

Der Alte · Jan 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
begin

<SS>I find this part the most fascinating. Especially in comparison to the other scripture below.
Luke 16:26-28
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Compare.
John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.<SS>

end

Luke 16:22-24
(22) "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
(23) In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
(24) So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
(25) "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
(26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

The Jews had views very similar to this.

Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
The notions of the Jews concerning that, who on those words in Ecc_7:14. "God hath set the one over against the other", say (f),
"this is hell and paradise, what space is there between them? an hand's breadth; R. Jochanan says a wall, but the Rabbans say, they are both of them even, so that they may look out of one into another.''
Which passage is cited a little differently (g), thus;
"wherefore did the holy blessed God create hell and paradise? that they might be one against another; what space is there between them? R. Jochanan says, a wall, and R. Acha says an hand's breadth: but the Rabbans say, two fingers.''
And elsewhere it (h) is said,
"know that hell and paradise are near to one another, and one house separates between them; and paradise is on the north east side---and hell on the north west.''
(f) Midrash Kohelet, fol 76. 1. (g) Nishmat Chayim Orat. 1. sect. 12. fol. 31. 1. (h) Raziel, fol. 15. 1.

Saint Steven · Jan 28, 2019

greenguzzi said:
The problem with that comparison is that it only works in English. In the original Greek they are two different words:
Luke 16 = diaperaó = through - the other side = to cross over
John 5 = metabainó = after - walk = to depart

Not a huge difference between crossing over to the other side and departing from one thing to another. Two ways of saying the same thing.

Saint Steven · Jan 28, 2019

greenguzzi said:
The word translated as "soul" in the NT is "psuché" (ψυχή).
Strong's says "Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual."

Psuché is where we get the first part of the English word "psychology" from. So you might be onto something.

Right. The mind is "the seat of affections and will". And our own mind makes us an individual.

greenguzzi · Jan 28, 2019

Washed Luminary said:
The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

Actually no. There are many more verses used to support "soul sleep" and similar beliefs (already mentioned above by myself and others). Also to describe what we are discussing as "soul sleep" is not really correct. Soul sleep is just one of a number of beliefs that fall into the category of the OP's question. But for convenience I will continue to use the phrase "soul sleep", unless anyone insists that by it we mean exactly and only what the SDA or others mean by it.

Washed Luminary said:
In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8,

Washed Luminary said:
Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.

Washed Luminary said:
Luke 23:42–43 is the account of where Jesus was being crucified. Jesus speaks to the criminal on his right and says "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.

Washed Luminary said:
when we look at the account of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31,

All the verses you quote above have already been discussed in this thread. I think it's been shown that none of them mean that we are conscious between death and resurection.

Washed Luminary said:
In Revelation 6:10 we see the account of people being conscious after death and asking God, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood

This hasn't been discussed in this thread before as far as I remember. But the genre of Revelation (apocalypse) means that you can't form literal conclusions about anything from what is written in Revelation.

Washed Luminary said:
Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect.

Well, it might be incorrect. But you haven't yet demonstrated such.

Dkh587 · Jan 28, 2019

Washed Luminary said:
Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine as do most conditionalists (those who say that the wicked are judged and don't exist anymore). But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation. This means that after death a person ceases to exist. At the future resurrection, they maintain that the soul is made again. Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual. The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.

The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:

Eccl. 9:5, For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."

Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of its own commentary, which says at the opening of the book, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?" (Eccl. 1:1-3). The writer is telling us how things are from the human perspective, from "under the sun." He is not telling us doctrinal statements about whether or not the soul continues after death. Besides, it's a mistake to use the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament. It is the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament.

In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord. Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.

Luke 23:42–43 is the account of where Jesus was being crucified. Jesus speaks to the criminal on his right and says "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."Jesus was saying that he and the criminal would be together in paradise. Some Respond to this and say that Jesus was emphasizing that he was speaking right then and there, "today." But, that position can only be held by those who presuppose a form of soul sleep. Of course, it was obvious that Jesus was speaking to him. But Jesus is saying to the criminal that he will be with Jesus in paradise today.

In addition when we look at the account of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, we clearly see Jesus using the imagery of consciousness after death. If soul sleep is true, what was Jesus doing relating the account of two individuals who were both conscious after their death?

In Revelation 6:10 we see the account of people being conscious after death and asking God, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” This is before the resurrection. Here gain we have another account of consciousness after physical death.

Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect. The soul continues on after death in a conscious state. The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.

The New Testament is based on the Law & the Prophets, not the other way around, therefore the New Testament must be interpreted through the Law & the Prophets.

The Messiah and Apostles taught from the Law & the Prophets, not the New Testament.

Do We Sleeping Until Judgement

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

You can call me Steve

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

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Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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