The Holy Bible Teaches Globe Earth.

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,551
4,684
59
Mississippi
✟248,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Those are for people with clear thinking minds that have not corrupted themselves by drinking the maddening wine of conspiracy theory.

The ground rules for this discussion is that the topic stays on the Biblical view and not arguments from the perspective of modern science. So if we want to understand the Biblical teaching we must stay on track.

So you can not follow your on set rules for your post
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phil.Stein
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
This is just pure balderdash and you are like Mr Morris, a person who does not accept the literal account of the Bible when the words do not line up with your belief in a globe earth
Balderdash! I like that word, use it myself whenever I can. See if you can'r work "pusillanimous" into your next post. That's a favorite of mine, too. ;)

But seriously, my take on it is that the Bible is written in such a way that the Good News of our salvation in Christ is made clear to the reader whatever he may happen to believe about the shape of the Earth or the Solar System at the time. God does not want our ideas about such mundane matters to be a barrier to our salvation. The Bible certainly does not overtly teach any of those competing views, however much their adherents by want to decode them from the text.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Phil.Stein
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I would agree with the OP that the Bible at least strongly implies a globe. However things like the shape of the earth, the movements of the stars and planets, and the age of the earth aren't emphasized.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Speedwell
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,551
4,684
59
Mississippi
✟248,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Balderdash! I like that word, use it myself whenever I can. See if you can'r work "pusillanimous" into your next post. That's a favorite of mine, too. ;)

But seriously, my take on it is that the Bible is written in such a way that the Good News of our salvation in Christ is made clear to the reader whatever he may happen to believe about the shape of the Earth or the Solar System at the time. God does not want our ideas about such mundane matters to be a barrier to our salvation. The Bible certainly does not overtly teach any of those competing views, however much their adherents by want to decode them from the text.

That is correct this is not a salvation issue, that God's gift of eternal life is freely given, is of great importance or we would all be in trouble.

But like many areas of the Bible, It just brings out lively discussions.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Phil.Stein
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
This is just pure balderdash and you are like Mr Morris, a person who does not accept the literal account of the Bible when the words do not line up with your belief in a globe earth
Wrong. I actually understand what is being said in the passages.
 
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
So you can not follow your on set rules for your post
I'm following them just fine. The object of this discussion is to know what the Bible says on the subject which also includes proper exegesis.
 
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
That is correct this is not a salvation issue, that God's gift of eternal life is freely given, is of great importance or we would all be in trouble.
But like many areas of the Bible, It just brings out lively discussions.
I believe that here the 21st century it is a salvation issue. This flat earth movement assaults the most basic doctrines of the Bible which has been understood for 2000+ years. Such immaturity is dangerous and quickly leads to apostasy.

Should Christians Lie To Gain New Converts?

Many flat earthers claim they have brought in many atheists into the faith by teaching the gospel of the flat earth. This is very strange since atheists have been mockingly accusing the Bible of teaching flat earth for as long as I can remember. I have met plenty of atheists who joined the flat earth movement to attack the Christian faith, but no atheist I have ever known is gonna give up their view of evolution theory for the flat earth.

Though for the sake of this lesson, lets assume there are many Christians promoting flat earth and they did manage to bring in some atheists into their new flat earth church. Lies always find you out whether it be tomorrow or 20 years from now. Sooner or later the lie will be found out. This ends in disaster because these new Christians, who used to be atheists, will now go back to being atheists and now they will be much more militant about their atheism when they finally discover the simple truth of reality that the earth is round...not flat.

So no Christian is ever permitted to lie to unbelievers in hopes to gain more members for their church. Now some church, namely the 19th century cults, do lie to Christians of other denomination and to unbelievers to pick up new members for their church. But this is a false practice and a clear violation of the 9th Commandment -- Thou shall not lie.


The Apostles were very clear with their instructions about being truthful when representing the Gospel of Christ. 2 Cor. 4:2 makes it very clear that Christians do not walk in the lies of conspiracy theory:

"But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God" (KJV).

Here are a few more translations of this verse as I want the reader to understand this verse very clearly.

"Instead, we have renounced shameful secret things, not walking in deceit or distorting God’s message, but commending ourselves to every person’s conscience in God’s sight by an open display of the truth" (HCSB).

"But we have renounced the secret things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by expressing the truth and commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God" (MEV).

"We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this" (NLT).

Christians don't lie to gain new converts. We never do evil hoping good will come from it.

"But if by my lie God’s truth is amplified to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, just as some people slanderously claim we say, “Let us do what is evil so that good may come”? Their condemnation is deserved!" (Rom.3:7-8).

This passage in Romans further condemns those who lie about the faith in hopes to bring in new converts. Such practice is shameful and useless. The Apostles never lied to win souls over to Christ. They died for the truth of their testimony which is the Gospel of our salvation.

1 Timothy 4:16 further says:


"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you."

Living a Godly, sober, and righteous life, while watching your doctrine closely, will save both yourself and those who hear you. Christians do not need to lie as the truth of the Gospel stands strong on its own. So Christians who are honest and tell the truth will most definitely have a more productive ministry than those who lie.

Since the Bible teaches globe earth, it is a lie to teach flat earth. Therefore, as the passages quoted very clearly says, anyone who teaches a falsehood in Jesus' name is condemned. Further, Rev.20:8 continues to warn us about lying and deceiving:


"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

And again, in Rev.22:14-15,


14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."


Flat earth falls not just under a lie, but also sorcery and idolatry. Those who love lies can never accept correction. This is because the spirit of God is not in them. The fruits of the flat earth is not bringing in atheists into the faith. That is another lie. The fruits of the flat earth are leading Christians into apostasy and why we see the world becoming so violent today.


Christians live for truth. We always seek to do what is right. We also will always tell the truth even if it cost us our lives. No lie ever brought anyone to Christ.
44939831_573748333080399_2785763140200038400_n.jpg



Scripture Itself Exposes Flat Earth Deception -- 2 Timothy 3:13; 4:3-4.


Flat earthers want us to believe that only in the last 4 years have we heard the Gospel of Christ for the first time. They want you to believe that the early church fathers, including Clement of Rome (Philippians 4:3), were nothing but hell bound heretics for their globe earth readings from Scripture. This, however, is a desperate attempt to save flat earth from being itself exposed a complete fraud.

2 Thessalonians 2:15,


"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (KJV).

Now FE claims we are not to listen to this verse as the early church, they say, is corrupt and it wasn't until the 21st century that Christians understood the Bible and therefore the early church fathers knew nothing. But simple common sense should warn you that any movement calling themselves a Christian movement but then deviates far from early Christian teachings is no Christian movement at all.


Just Who Is Being Deceived?

2 Timothy 3:13

"But the evil men and deceivers will grow worse and worse, while they deceive and are deceived themselves" (NMB).

2 Timothy 4:3-4

"For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths" (NLT).

If we are to take in the FE interpretation of these two verses then these two verses were aimed at the Apostles of Christ. Though we understand it was Jesus Christ Who gave authority to the Apostles to spread the Gospel and chose their successors. Now since flat earthers believe Clement of Rome to be a hell bound heretic for teaching about a round and rotating earth with antipodes (people living on opposite earth, whose feet walk opposite to ours), we need to examine some warnings from Scripture. So lets just take a peak at what the Bible says about Clement:

"I ask you also, true companion, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life" (Philippians 4:2, MEV).

Here the Apostle Paul is commending those who labored with him in the Gospel. He made special mention of Clement, who was consecrated by the Apostle Peter to be the Bishop of the church in Rome. His name, along with others mentioned (though not named), are written in the Book of Life.


Nowhere in Christian history do we read any negative report about Clement. Yet flat earthers will tell you that he has blasphemed God by teaching globe earth. This does even go into the depth of absurdity that FE claims Christians only began to teach globe earth 500 years ago! Yet Clement of Rome is a 1st century church father who lived 2000 years ago and taught globe earth!

Do you see the problem flat earth has? They claim globe earth was not a belief among Christians until 500 years ago, and then condemn Clement for believing globe earth. Wakey Wakey, do you not see the snakey?


A Simple Conclusion:

2 Timothy 3:13; 4:3-4 are very clearly a warning that a time will come when these things will happen. The church at this time is in good hands with those selected to continue the Gospel message. We also know that many of the early Christians were very severely persecuted for their faith. So the wrong doers are not the early church fathers but those who stir up division by their hallow teaching which are a rejected branch as far as the ministry of the Gospel is concerned.

So the two verses featured here are aimed at heretics who's evil will become worse and worse. I want you to think and ponder the thought for a moment of what it means to become worse and worse? What we see today with all this liberal theology, anarchy and the occult, has never been so out of control before the 21st century. Movements today are getting worse and worse and those who's souls are perishing will follow anything that they believe will destroy Christianity. They are slaves to sin, slaves to the world; ships without rudders, one wave short of a shipwreck. Welcome to the world of the apostate church! This apostasy has never before been seen in history working so hard against the Gospel message. But here in the 21st century, evil men have gone from bad to worse, just as Scripture says.

Atheists have long mocked the Bible for allegations of flat earth teaching. In my 15 years of studying creationism and debating atheists, the allegation that the Bible teaches flat earth has perhaps been the most common issue debated with atheists. But now all the sudden atheists are coming to Christ because of the flat earth? That's what flat earthers want you to believe. Truth is, more atheists are becoming more militant and masquerading as Christians in hopes of destroying Christianity this century. Its hate that drives this movement, and hate only goes from bad to worse.

It is very clear that the time has come when people will no longer tolerate sound doctrine. The reason why flat earthers refuse to accept sound answers is because they are not interested in learning the truth of the matter more than they are attacking what they don't want to understand.
45027289_573148889807010_2986414765204570112_n.jpg

Warning Against Apostasy -- Hebrews 5:11-14; 6:1-12

Hebrews 5:11-14 Modern English Version (MEV)

Warning Against Apostasy
11 Concerning this we have much to say that is hard to explain, since you have become hard of hearing. 12 For though by now you should be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God and have come to need milk rather than solid food. 13 Everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are mature, for those who through practice have powers of discernment that are trained to distinguish good from evil."

Hebrews 6:1-12 Modern English Version (MEV),

6 Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 This we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to be renewed once more to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and subject Him to public shame. 7 For land that drinks in the rain that often falls upon it and bears a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. 8 But land that bears thorns and thistles is rejected and near to being cursed. Its destiny is to be burned.

9 But though we speak in this manner, we are persuaded of better things for you, things that accompany salvation, 10 for God is not unjust so as to forget your work and labor of love that you have shown for His name, in that you have ministered to the saints and continue ministering. 11 We desire that every one of you show the same diligence for the full assurance of hope to the end, 12 so that you may not be lazy, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."


Hebrews 5:11-14,Hebrews 6:1-12

New Matthew Bible (NMB)

11 About this we have many things to say, which are hard to explain because you are dull of hearing. 12 For when as concerning the time you ought to be teachers, yet you need us to again teach you the first principles of the word of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For everyone who is fed with milk is inexpert in the word of righteousness. For he is but a babe. 14 But strong meat belongs to those who are of full age, who through regular use have their wits exercised to judge both good and evil also.

He continues with the thing that he began in the latter end of chapter 5, and exhorts them not to faint, but to be steadfast and patient, seeing as God is trustworthy and faithful in his promise.
6 Therefore let us leave the questions that belong to the beginning of a Christian life, and let us go on to maturity, and not now again lay the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 of baptism, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection from death, and of eternal judgment. 3 And so will we do, if God permits.

4 For it is not possible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted of the good word of God and of the power of the world to come, 6 if they fall, to be renewed again to repentance, seeing they have (as concerning themselves) crucified the Son of God afresh, making a mock of him. 7 For that earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for those who tend it, receives blessing from God. 8 But that ground which bears thorns and briars is reproved, and is near to cursing: whose end is to be burned.

9 Nevertheless, dear friends, we trust to see better of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we speak this way. 10 For God is not unrighteous, that he should forget your work and labour that proceeds of love – which love you have shown in his name, you who have ministered to the saints, and still minister. 11 Yea and we desire that every one of you show the same diligence to secure your hope right to the end: 12 that you faint not, but follow those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb.jpg

 
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

Clement of Rome is the first early church father who would become a successor to the Apostles. He was consecrated by the Apostle Peter and mentioned favorably by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3,

"And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

Clement's name is written in the Book of Life. Clement is believed by some scholars to have been the author of the Book of Hebrews based on the grammatical style. While this is uncertain, what is certain is that Clement gives us clear insight to what 1st century Christians believed. Clement knew the Bible better than all 20th and 21st century scholars. His testimony on basic doctrine provides us essential insight into the ancient Church as well as the Succession in which all other consecrated priests would follow (though many priests today have deviated from sound doctrine to their own destruction -- 1 Tim.4:16; Heb. 5:11-14; 6:1-12).

Clement affirms his strong belief in the round world. All quotations are taken from The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1. His Epistle To The Corinthians was written in 97 A.D. which is only one or two years after the Apostle John penned Revelation!

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

Clement is referring to the establishment of the heavens and the earth before dry land appeared. This means that only water would have been seen encircling the globe.

The next quote comes from chapter 20 and here Clement clearly states the earth rotates:

"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20: 2).

It seems clear enough to me that he is reading from the Book of Job chapter 26 verse 10...

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (KJV)

"He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters,
At the boundary of light and darkness" (NKJV).


...and Job 38:14,

"It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment" (KJV).

"It turneth itself as clay of a seal And they station themselves as clothed" (YLT).

Moreover, Clement was a believer in what was called antipodes -- people of opposite earth, who's feet walk opposite to ours.

“The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

What Clement is saying here is that the earth is a sphere and the other side of the earth is peopled.

Origen (185-254 A.D.) explains Clement's comment:

“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

St.Augustine knew the Bible taught globe earth but could not fathom the idea of antipodes. Here are two translations of Augustine's "City of God" containing his indirect remark about Clement's belief in antipodes. Here Augustine is at odds with Clement:

"9. The story of the 'antipodes'
As for the fabled 'antipodes', men, that is, who live on the other side of earth, where the sun rises when it sets for us, men who plant their footsteps opposite ours, there is no rational ground for such a belief. The upholders of this notion do not assert that they have discovered it from scientific evidence; they base their conjecture on a kind of priori reasoning. They argue that the earth is suspended within the sphere of the heavens, so that the lowest point and the middle point of the world are identical; and this leads them to suppose that the other half of the world which lies below this part cannot be devoid of human inhabitants. They ignore the fact that even if the world is supposed to be a spherical mass, or if some rational proof should be offered for the superstition, it does not follow that the land on that side is not covered by 'the gathering together of the waters'. Again, even if the land were uncovered, it does not immediately follow that it has human beings on it. For there is no untruth of any kind in Scripture, whose reliability in the account of past events is attested by the fulfillment of its prophecies for the future; and it would be too ridiculous to suggest that some men might have sailed from our side of the earth to the other, arriving there after crossing the vast expanse of ocean, so that the human race should be established there also by the descendants of the first man." (St.Augustine, "City of God," Penguin Classics, p.664).


Now for another translation,

"9. Whether we are to believe in the Antipodes
But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite to ours, that is on no ground credible. And, indeed, it is not affirmed that this has been learned by historical knowledge, but by scientific conjecture, on the ground that the earth is suspended within the concavity of the sky, and that it has as much room on one side of it as on the other : hence they say that the part which is beneath must also be inhabited. But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side is bare of water ; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled. For Scripture, which proves the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishments of its prophecies, gives no false information ; and it is too absurd to say that some men might have taken ship and traversed the whole wide ocean, and crossed from this side of the world to the other, and that thus even the inhabitants of that distant region are descended from that first man." (St.Augustine, "City of God," Book XVI, chapter 9, p.532; translated by Marcus Dods, D.D.; The Modern Library, NY).


Wikipedia cites this information in their "Flat Earth" section to claim Augustine had denied the spherical shape of the earth. But he is not rejecting the sphericity of the earth, but rather he finds it unnecessary to believe that the world is populated with antipodes who live on opposite earth. This opposite earth includes Australia, New Zealand and the Americas (North, Central and South), along with Canada and Mexico etc.

Augustine did know the earth is spherical.The following quotation is taken from Augustine’s book The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1. (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41).

“But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1. Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41, p.33).

Augustine is speaking about the light God created. He speaks with confidence concerning his own knowledge of the shape of the earth. He sees an earth that is spherical and rotating. He may not of had all the knowledge he would have wanted to know, but the shape of the earth is spoken with confidence.

The purpose of citing Augustine's criticism of antipodes is to prove what Clement is saying when he writes:

"The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

This is a very clear globe earth reference from the 1st century A.D. and it comes from the most important successor of the Apostles.
________________________________________________________________________
BONUS: What did Clement mean by "the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees as the Master"? Perhaps this will be a prophetic guide to what Clement had in mind.

An Old Indian Chief Speaks about Washington.

This is one of my favorite accounts of President George Washington which is often cited in many discussions on social media. This event happens before Washington becomes the 1st President of the United States. This account is taken from "America's God And Country: Encyclopedia Of Quotations" by William J. Federer, p.636-637,

"Fifteen years later, Washington and Dr.Craik, a close friend of his from his youth, were traveling through those same woods near the Ohio River and Great Kanawha River. They were met by an old Indian chief, who addressed Washington through an interpreter:

"I am chief and ruler over my tribes. My influence extends to the waters of the great lakes and to the far blue mountains.
I have traveled a long and weary path that I might see the young warrior of the great battle. It was on the day when the white man's blood mixed with the streams of the forests that I first beheld this chief [Washington].
I called to my young men and said, mark yon tall and daring warrior? He is not of the red-coat tribe - he hath an Indian's wisdom, and his warriors fight as we do - himself alone exposed.
Quick, let your aim be certain, and he dies. Our rifles were leveled, rifles which, but for you, knew not how to miss - 'twas all in vain, a power mightier far than we, shielded you.
Seeing you were under the special guardianship of the Great Spirit, we immediately ceased fire at you. I am old and soon shall be gathered to the great council fire of my fathers in the land of shades, but ere I go, there is something bids me speak in the voice or prophecy:
Listen! The Great Spirit protects that man [pointing at Washington], and guides his destinies--he will become the chief of nations, and a people yet unborn will hail him as the founder of a mighty empire. I am come to pay homage to the man who is the particular favor favorite of Heaven, and who can die in battle."

The famous Indian warrior, who was in that battle, said:

"Washington was never born to be killed by a bullet! I had seventeen fair fires at him with my rifle, and after all could not bring him to the ground."


So what we read here further confirms Clement's words about how the people of opposite earth "are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (God). All this was understood by Clement 2000 years before Columbus discovered the new world!
39519415_535491686906064_2399806736052518912_n.jpg
 
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
What Is The Firmament? Part 1

Contents:
Introduction
1. Definitions.
2. Scripture Mentions More Than One Heaven.
3. Is There A Sky Made Out Of Metal?
4. St. John of Damascus (676 - 749 A.D) -- On The Heavens.
5. Isaiah 40:22
6. The Conclusion of the Matter
_____________________________________________________

Introduction

There is no answering the flat earth movement without explaining what the firmament is. FE has made the firmament their main doctrine and use spurious information from the 20th century to promote their dubious interpretation of the Biblical firmament. Hence flat earthers, claiming to be Christians, use information from atheist websites like Wikipedia to twist what Christians have always believed in centuries long before trashing websites like Wikipedia and others began deliberately distorting what the Bible teaches. People simply need to understand that there are no qualified writers at Wikipedia and the site will not allow accurate information about Biblical teachings. Everything on Wikipedia must come from an atheist perspective on evolution theory and the Documentary Hypothesis which vaguely claims all region evolved and there is no God. So when I see "Christians" pushing well known atheist skepticism on the Bible, a clear warning sign sounds off.

The information contained here in this post comes from more reliable Christian sources, ancient and modern. The explanation of the firmament provided here is absolutely 100% accurate as well as authoritative. This presentation very strongly refutes the atheist assumptions made about the firmament so that flat earthers are out of excuses and flat out of arguments.
_____________________________________________________

1. Definitions

The firmament has become an unhealthy obsession with flat earthers who simply are not interested in what the firmament actually means. So they have forcefully made up their own body of theology around the firmament which has become the beating heart of the flat earth movement. So here we will learn what the firmament is and why flat earthers are, once again, on the losing side of the debate.

The first mentioned of the firmament (H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ), is found in Genesis 1:6 in the KJV, which says:

“And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. “

Before we go on any further we need to know the definition of “firmament”?

Firmament/Expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."


Flat earthers try to assign such a literal meaning to the firmament as to claim Genesis 1:8 is speaking about a solid, hard, metal dome that cannot ever be penetrated by anything--not anything coming from space to earth, or anything from the earth leaving for space. Flat earthers want us to literally believe the Bible is teaching us about a sky literally made out of metal or glass or some solid structure. But as you can see there is no dome. Though our Lord Jesus did say this about the fall of Lucifer:

“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven” (Lk.10:18).

So Satan fell from heaven. But what is heaven? Is Jesus speaking about Strong’s H8064 שָׁמַיִם shâmayim or Strong’s G3772 οὐρανός ? Jesus is in fact speaking about Strong’s G3772 which is so surprisingly well defined that you will have no problem following it. Here is the Greek definition of οὐρανός, used in Luke 10:18 as “heaven,”

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

“3772, οὐρανός [284x] ouranós, oo-ran-os'; perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):—heaven [268x], air [10x], sky [5x], heavenly + 1537 [1x].
Ouranós, is used in the NT (1) of “the aerial heavens,” e.g., Mt.6:26; 8:20; Acts 10:12; 11:6 “air”; Jas.5:18; (2) “the sidereal” (i.e. the starry heavens), e.g., Mt.24:29, 35; Mk 13:25, 31; Heb 11:12, “sky”; Rev 6:14; 20:11; (3) they, (1) and (2), (3a) were created by the Son of God, Heb 1:10, as also (3b) by God the Father, Rev 10:6; (4) “the eternal dwelling place of God,” Mt 5:16; 12:50; Rev 3:12; 11:13; 16:11; 20:09. (5) From thence the Son of God descended to become incarnate, Jn 3:13; 6:38, 42. (6) He “passed through the heavens,” Eph 4:10, and was “made higher than the heavens,” Heb 7:26; (7) He “sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 1 Pet 1:12. (9) Since His ascension it is the sense of His present life and activity. e.g., Rom 8:34; Heb 9:24.
(10) From thence the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost, 1 Pet 1:12. (11) It is the abode of the angels, e.g., Mt 18:10; 22:30; cf. Rev 3:5. (12) Thither Paul was “caught up,” whether in the body or out of the body, he knew not, 2 Cor 12:2. (13) It is to be the eternal dwelling place of the saints in resurrection glory, 2 Cor 5:1. (14) From thence Christ will descend to the air (14a) to receive His saints at the Rapture, 1 Th 4:16; Phil 3:20, 21, and (14b) will subsequently come with His saints and with His holy angels at His second advent, Mt 24:30; 2 Th 1:17 (15) In the present life “heaven” is the region if the spiritual citizenship of believers, Phil 3:20 (16) The present “heavens,” with the earth. are to pass away, 2 Pet 3:10, “being on fire,” v 12 (see v 7); Rev 20:11, and (17) new “heavens” and earth are to be created, 2 Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1 with is Isa 65:17 (18) In Lk 15:18, 21, “heavens” is used, by metonymy, for God.”


So οὐρανός means heaven (singular, as sky) and heavens (plural, as in the heavens beyond the earthly sky). Eph 4:10 says how Jesus ascended beyond the heavens:

“He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.”

So Jesus left the earth while Lucifer entered it. This does not appear to be an impenetrable sky made of metal.

But is there more than one heaven/expanse?

Hebrew Definition of heaven/heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.
Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."

_____________________________________________________
2. Scripture Mentions More Than One Heaven.

There are three heavens:

1. The Atmospheric Heaven - The First Heaven

Genesis 1:6-8,

“Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.“

Genesis 6:7, “So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Matt.6:4, “Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?”

James 5:18, NKJV: “And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.”

James 5:18, MEV: “And he prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”

Both NKJV and MEV both refer to the earthly heaven--the sky and atmosphere of the earth.

2. The Celestial Heaven - The Second Heaven

Gen.1:14-17,

“And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs to indicate seasons, and days, and years. 15 Let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 Then God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,”

Deut.10:14: “Indeed, heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it.”

Nehemiah 9:6: “You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”

3. Heaven As The Home Of God - The Third Heaven

I Kings 8:27: “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? See, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less can this house that I have built?”

II Cor. 12:2, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.”

As anyone can clearly read, there is more than one heaven.
47102749_596038980851334_6062214843585265664_n.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
What Is The Firmament? Part 2

3. Is There A Sky Made Out Of Metal?

Flat earthers always cite from Elihu’s narrative in Job 37:18,

“With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV)

Since Elihu's words are approved by God, it would be wise to see what is actually meant by a sky as strong as metal.

The early church fathers also described the firmament as strong and solid. St.Ambrose, a prominent 4th century church father, says this about the firmament:

“But there is something which needs our consideration: there is the question of another word for heaven, ‘firmament,’ and there emerges an aspect and condition of more solid character, to which is added the person of a co-operating agent. For it is written: ‘God divided the waters that were under the firmament from those that were above the firmament” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.52).

St.Ambrose does not deny that God made the firmament of a solid nature. He, as well as some other church fathers, agree the firmament is solid, thereby supporting Elihu's narrative. None of the early church fathers were scientists, but they did understand word definitions very well. It should also be noted that Bishop Ambrose was overwhelmingly convinced that the Bible taught globe earth. He also believed that the heavens (i.e., space) was so large that we will never fully understand it. So the flat earth view that the firmament is flat is not supported by any ancient Christian leaders.

Strong’s H2389 חָזָק châzâq from the word “strong” used in Job 37:18,

“[56x] châzâq khaw-zawk’; from 2388; strong (usually in a bad sense, hard, bold, violent):--strong [26x], mighty [20x] sore [3x], stronger [2x], harder [1x], hottest [1x], impudent [1x], loud [1x], stiffhearted [1x].
châzâq as an adjective, means “strong; mighty; heavy; severe; firm; hard.” (1) First, the word means “firm” or “hard” in the sense that something is impenetrable. (1a) In Eze 3:8-9 the prophet’s face is compared to rock; (1b) God has made him determined to his task just as Israel is determined not to listen to him: “Behold, I have made they face [hard] against their faces, and thy forehead [hard] against their foreheads. As adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead. . . .” (1c) Job 37:18 uses chazaq of molten solidified metal. (2) Second, this word means “strong.” In its basic meaning it refers to physical strength. God’s hand (an anthropomorphism; cf. Deut 4:15, 19) as a symbol of His effecting His will among men is “strong”: “And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand” (Ex 3:19--the first biblical occurrence). (2a) This word modifies a noun, specifying that it is the opposite of weak, or unable to effect anything (Num 13:18). (2b) Isaiah speaks of God’s “sore and great and strong sword” (27:1). (2c) When Ezekiel wrote of “fat and strong” animals, he probably meant that they are well fed and healthy (34:16). (3) Third, chazaq meabs “heavy.” (3a) When applied to a battle or war, it describes the event(s) as severe (1 Sa 14:52). (3b) The word is also used to indicate (3b1) a severe sickness (1 Kin 17:17) and (3b2) famine (1 Kin 18:2).”

So Strong’s H2389 חָזָק châzâq is applied to anything that is firm, strong, such as the prophet’s face and forehead, and, the firmament (the atmosphere of earth). We can very clearly see that châzâq is an expression which simply means “strong” with a slight exaggeration of emphasis. For example: Was the prophet’s face literally a rock? Was the prophet’s forehead really harder than flint? These are mere comparisons of the strong character of the prophet. Likewise we know the firmament is strong, seemingly impenetrable. We can tell just from reading Elihu’s narrative that the firmness of the firmament was something discussed but its actual nature was uncertain to mankind until the 20th century. The proof is right there in Elihu’s narrative, once again, in Job 37:18. I’ll quote from some older translations predating the 20th century.

“Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass” (Douay Rheims Bible).

“Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?” (KJV).

“Hast thou helped him to spreade oute the heauen, which is to loke vpon, as it were cast of cleare metall?” (1537 Matthew’s Bible).

“Hast thou helped him to spreade out the heauens which are strong and bright as a loking glasse” (1568 Bishop’s Bible).

So we have:

1. “which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass”
2. “which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?”
3. “which is to loke vpon, as it were cast of cleare metall?”
4. “which are strong and bright as a loking glasse”

Elihu is expressing the clarity and strength of the firmament in general relationship to God’s handiwork of creation (e.g. Psalm 19:1). We see many expressions in the Bible from a human perspective which describe something hard to express with the ancient vocabulary. In Exodus 24:9-10 the Israelites see God (or what God reveals of Himself) and give this description:

“Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.”

This is a similar description of the firmament but coming from a human perspective. What did not come from a strict human perspective is the actual account itself. The Israelites really did see God. But they gave their own description based on the knowledge and the vocabulary to express that knowledge. If you saw God you would likewise provide a description which you would draw from the best of your knowledge in the vocabulary of that knowledge. Likewise the firmament is written in Genesis and Jews and Christians are trying to describe what it means based on what is written about it. The account is genuine but attempts to understand it are never flawless. With that said, the early church fathers understood what the word meant but did not fully grasp its nature in relation to our knowledge of modern science.

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D. was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. He gives an account of the firmament without attempting to go into depth to explain it.

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Josephus knew God created the firmament but he also knows he doesn’t have the knowledge to explain it in great depth so he provides only what he knew about it.
______________________________________________________________

4. St. John of Damascus (676 - 749 A.D) -- On The Heavens

St.John of Damascus lived in the late 7th century up through the mid 8th century. He gave us the first Christian writing about Islam, which he called them by the name “Ishmaelites” from where their leader descended. He described the Ishmaelites as being the forerunners of the Antichrist.
St.John was also an Eastern Church father; which, at this time in Christian history, there was no division between Eastern and Western Orthodoxy. There is still only one universal Christian Church at this point in time. He goes into greater depth in providing us the meaning of the heavens. He doesn’t deviate a bit from the Strong’s definition. Remember, you are not reading the words of a scientist. Nobody should expect any of these church fathers to know anything about science.

“Now, since Scripture speaks of ‘heaven,’ the ‘heaven of heaven,’ and the ‘heavens of heavens,’ and says that the blessed Paul was caught up to the ‘third heaven,’ we say that in the creation of the universe we consider as heavens that which the pagan philosophers, making the teachings of Moses their own, call a starless sphere. And again, God called heaven the ‘firmament,’ which He ordered to be made in the midst of the water and so arranged that it was separated from the midst of the water above the firmament and from the midst of that which is below the firmament. Instructed by sacred Scripture, the divine Basil says that its substance is subtle--like smoke, as it were. Others say that it is watery, because it was made in the midst of the waters. And others say that it was made from the four elements. Still others say that it is a fifth body and distinct from the four elements” (St.John of Damascus “The Orthodox Faith: Book II,” The Fathers Of The Church series translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr, p.211).

There are three important things we can confirm here: (1) There is more than one heaven (2) the exact nature of the firmament was not fully understood and very well discussed. There was no dogmatic view concerning the exact nature of the firmament. But as for the spherical shape of the earth and its rotation, that had been very well understood from a simple reading and understanding of Hebrew words which even today are understood to mean a 3D circular earth--a globe. (3) Pagans did borrow from Moses (i.e., the Torah which is called the Books of Moses, who compiled the Torah of God).

St.John continues to explain the heavens from Scripture:

“So there is a heaven of heaven, which is the first heaven and is above the firmament. But now, because God also called the firmament ‘heaven,’ there are two heavens. However, it is customary for sacred Scripture to call the air heaven, too, because of its being seen above, as it says: ‘O all ye fowls of the heaven, bless the Lord,’ meaning the air, although the air is not heaven but the medium of passage for the fowls. Here we have the three heavens of which the divine Apostle spoke. Then, if you want to take the seven spheres as seven heavens, there will be nothing contrary to the Word of Truth. It is also customary in the Hebrew tongue to speak of heaven in the plural as ‘heavens.’ So, when Scripture meant to say ‘heaven of heaven,’ it said ‘heavens of heavens,’ which would mean precisely ‘heaven of heaven’--that which is over the firmament and the waters which are above the heavens, whether over the air and the firmament or over the seven spheres of the firmament, or over the firmament expressed in the plural as ‘heavens’ according to the Hebraic usage” (St.John of Damascus “The Orthodox Faith: Book II,” The Fathers Of The Church series translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr, p.213).

What St.John of Damascus is saying is something we already read in the Strong’s Concordance. It would be easier just to accept the Hebrew definition from the Strong’s. But since there is so much squabble about the nature of the firmament, and liberal scholars are trying hard to redefine Hebrew words so as to get a Democrat elected in 2020, it forces Christians like me to reexplain what has already been explained in the Strong’s.

So a clear reading of St.John’s explanation proves that Gen.1:17 is God placing the sun, moon and stars in the heavens--the second heavens beyond our ear firmament. In other words: Space!

The real problem is that too many people don’t realize that the KJV is outdated. Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying the KJV mistranslated Genesis chapter one. The people of the 17th century all understood that Gen.1:17 was God placing the sun, moon and stars in the heavens (i.e., the greater expanse of space). Though people here in the 21st century, in an age where illiteracy is the highest in centuries: there are words, expressions, even grammatical rules, that no longer carry the same meaning or grammatical rules of today’s 21st century English speaking people. This is why there are modern translations such as the MEV and NKJV. There is no difference in the meaning of verses in Genesis chapter one from the KJV, MEV, NKJV or RSV. The only thing that differs from the translations mentioned is the grammatical rules. There actually was not set standard of English back in the early 17th century. But today, we have set rules and we read literature and understand it from our modern grammar. So when people read:

“And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth” (Gen.1:17, KJV),

They are reading the 17th century grammar which means:

“Then God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth” (Gen.1:17, MEV).

Both translations mean the exact same thing as St.John of Damascus clearly pointed out.
___________________________________________________________________

5. Isaiah 40:22

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.”

This is a verse we have read and discussed multiple times. But many are asking: What is the tent? This tent is our atmosphere. And like a tent, it keeps us safe from solar flares and objects from space. Our planet was not poorly made. God knew what He was doing.

Some people on this forum have suggested that the tent is our galaxy or solar system. While this could be true, I am holding the position here that the tent in Isaiah 40:22 is the atmosphere of the earth. I do think that discussing this matter would make for good discussion, as Psalm 19:4 places the sun in a tent as well which is a clear reference to our solar system.

6a00d8341bf7f753ef019b003e90e1970b.jpg


________________________________________________________________

6. The Conclusion of the Matter

So from all that is shared here about the firmament, how can we 21st century people understand it? The firmament/expanse of the earthly heaven is in no way like metal. Its much more solid than metal! This is true! Our earthly heaven is much more solid than iron or metal. This is scientifically proven, too. Indeed, when meteorites enter into our atmosphere what happens to them? They burn up! Yet are not meteorites a solid structure like large rocks we see on earth? Sure they are. And still they burn up into nothing. It takes a very large asteroid to make through the firmament to impact the earth.
But what about metal? Surely the firmament is much weaker than metal, right? Absolutely not! In 2003, space shuttle Columbia blow up reentering our atmosphere, killing all seven astronauts on board. The metal of the space shuttle was not stronger than the firmament. It takes a great deal of knowledge to leave earth and reenter the atmosphere of the planet. This knowledge of physics was not know until the 20th century. If all precautions are not properly carried out, a space shuttle meets the same fate as a meteorite. In order to be an astronaut, a person must have a great deal of knowledge in physics before they can ever pilot any space craft. So the firmament is solid, yet its just flexible enough to allow a smart astronaut to and from space.

Is the firmament clear like glass? Just look at the photo attached to this article and you’ll see its like looking through a window. Though if you throw a rock from a space shuttle to earth the rock will not break the glass-like window of the firmament, but will burn up in mere seconds, never hitting anyone on earth or damaging someone’s car. So in conclusion the firmament is solid, strong, capable of keeping the earth safe from cosmic threats that would have wiped us out long ago had our atmosphere not been created so...
strong.
50781420_10213670155972834_6513380958798872576_o.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Phil.Stein

Active Member
Oct 28, 2018
223
194
Texas City
✟13,372.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Moving the goal posts? You quoted Bible verses that say the earth doesn't move. There were no qualifiers in those verses. Now you say it was only referring the the earth as a whole? Sounds like selective literalism at work.
Not at all. The Earth as a whole does not move. Or do you believe that an earthquake moves the whole Earth?

God also said He would never again destroy the Earth by flood. This doesn't mean we don't have floods - we have them all the time. Again, He was referring to the entire Earth, as in the global flood. You have got to take things in context, or you will come up with all sorts of strange ideas.
 
Upvote 0

Phil.Stein

Active Member
Oct 28, 2018
223
194
Texas City
✟13,372.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
My goal here is simple: To prove that 2000+ years of Christianity have read globe earth from the Bible.
Just pointing out, that you have "changed the goalposts" (in the words of a globalist from this thread). Your original post stated:

The ground rules for this discussion is that the topic stays on the Biblical view and not arguments from the perspective of modern science. So if we want to understand the Biblical teaching we must stay on track.

Since you seem to have lost on these original criteria, as the bible does indeed seem to imply a flat Earth, you are now copy-pasting entire, encyclopedic-length articles from various sources, attacking Flat Earth theory based on the anti-Christian beliefs of certain Flat Earth theorists, and changing the argument scope to assert that Christians of the past were globalists.

Do you therefore concede that scripture does indeed imply a Flat Earth? Or if not, why do you keep derailing your own thread?
 
Upvote 0

Phil.Stein

Active Member
Oct 28, 2018
223
194
Texas City
✟13,372.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Those are for people with clear thinking minds that have not corrupted themselves by drinking the maddening wine of conspiracy theory.
Are you really looking to debate this topic solely from scripture, or are you just trolling and pretending to argue from scripture, whilst pusillanimously quoting the opinions of others and posting fake NASA images? ;)

I'm following them just fine. The object of this discussion is to know what the Bible says on the subject which also includes proper exegesis.
I thought proper exegesis was different to sole reliance on the opinion of others... o_O
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
You really shouldn't go around saying that flat earthers are just 'claiming to be Christians'. They may have the wrong idea about the shape of the earth, but that doesn't mean that their faith is insincere.
Leading others to a false view of Christianity is strictly prohibited by Scripture. Its false testimony against the validity of Scripture and nobody is going to find Christ with this flat earth view--which, by the way, is rooted in evil conspiracy theories that also teach the Final Solution.

I've been a Christian since I was 14 and know what the Bible teaches on the matter. I will not be silent about this flat earth lie. Its blasphemous!

Gal.1:6-10
Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 1:6-10 - English Standard Version

Flat earth is mockery of the Christian faith. The flat earth movement has no root in Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Not at all. The Earth as a whole does not move. Or do you believe that an earthquake moves the whole Earth?

God also said He would never again destroy the Earth by flood. This doesn't mean we don't have floods - we have them all the time. Again, He was referring to the entire Earth, as in the global flood. You have got to take things in context, or you will come up with all sorts of strange ideas.
Does the Bible Teach a Stationary Earth That Never Moves?

One of the more favorite arguments from flat earthers are verses which say how the earth shall not be moved. This expression in modern English carries the opposite meaning that it originally meant in Hebrew. So in order to understand this ancient expression it is necessary to seek out an ancient scholar to define what it means.

How Do We Properly Interpret verses that say how the earth shall not be moved? St.Ambrose, a prominent 4th century church father, explains what those passages mean:

“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23).


So the immovable earth is an expression that means how the earth, which is suspended in space over nothing, will not fall or drift away from the laws God ordained for it; that the earth maintains its position in the solar system without corruption, as the laws ordained are fixed laws and will not change.

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen is a Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption."

Notice how Origen calls this earth a "fixed sphere" which means the laws ordained by God for this earth will not go into corruption. When God created this earth and all that there is therein, He called it "very good" which means God did not create this earth to fall down from its position in the solar system or float away into space etc. That is what the immovable earth verses mean.

"The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved" (Ps.99:1).
39935730_537877640000802_1631639182189264896_o.jpg
 
Upvote 0

FEZZILLA

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2003
1,031
131
53
Wisconsin
✟16,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Just pointing out, that you have "changed the goalposts" (in the words of a globalist from this thread). Your original post stated:



Since you seem to have lost on these original criteria, as the bible does indeed seem to imply a flat Earth, you are now copy-pasting entire, encyclopedic-length articles from various sources, attacking Flat Earth theory based on the anti-Christian beliefs of certain Flat Earth theorists, and changing the argument scope to assert that Christians of the past were globalists.

Do you therefore concede that scripture does indeed imply a Flat Earth? Or if not, why do you keep derailing your own thread?
I have quoted from top modern scholars as well as ancient Christian church fathers. So but if you want to deviate from 2000 years of a sound understanding of Scripture then that's your choice. But don't drag me down to your own private hell.

You have no sources to back up your deviations from 2000 years of theology. I have cited from 1st century sources and you from 20th century sources. The early church fathers win this debate as they prove there is no flat earth tradition in Christianity.

FE is a lost cause completely.
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Leading others to a false view of Christianity is strictly prohibited by Scripture. Its false testimony against the validity of Scripture and nobody is going to find Christ with this flat earth view--which, by the way, is rooted in evil conspiracy theories that also teach the Final Solution.

I've been a Christian since I was 14 and know what the Bible teaches on the matter. I will not be silent about this flat earth lie. Its blasphemous!

Gal.1:6-10
Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 1:6-10 - English Standard Version

Flat earth is mockery of the Christian faith. The flat earth movement has no root in Christianity.

Hey, I'm totally on board with you that flat earth is bogus. But some Christians honestly believe it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟931,284.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since you seem to have lost on these original criteria, as the bible does indeed seem to imply a flat Earth, you are now copy-pasting entire, encyclopedic-length articles from various sources, attacking Flat Earth theory based on the anti-Christian beliefs of certain Flat Earth theorists, and changing the argument scope to assert that Christians of the past were globalists.

The Bible does not imply a flat Earth ... no more than my recording of my day-to-day life experiences imply a flat Earth. I have read the Bible, and there is not one passage in it which mandates the understanding that the Earth is flat.

I mean, think about it objectively for a moment. If it was really important to God that we KNOW that the Earth is flat, ... wouldn't He have been a lot more explicit about it ? He could have easily inspired a Bible to write ... "The Earth is flat ... ". But He didn't.

My position, from 40 years of Bible study, is that the shape of the Earth is not explicitly described in the scriptures, at least not to the common believer (FEZZILLA is distinctly uncommon), ... because God did not want us to be drawn into making doctrine about the shape of the earth. Similar to how he warned Timothy not to get bogged down in old-wives tales and geneologies, etc., but rather, to focus upon the proclamation and defense of the faith.

1 Timothy 1

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; ...
 
Upvote 0