Maintaining One's Salvation Status

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The salvation that we receive from Christ is due to our acceptance of the fact that He is our savior... We are sinners... He died for our sins... and we can do nothing of ourselves... He and only He can save us.

Atheists are guilty of rejecting Him. You cannot be saved by a savior that you fail to acknowledge.

How can you stand before Him, after death, and expect to be given forgiveness from someone you denied by the power that Christ was given to forgive your sins?

We are all immoral and sinful creatures... even after salvation we continue to sin.
It's just that we are covered by Christ's blood.

Again, it is not a license to sin. That is a sinful and unrepentant attitude.




I am not saying that those that commit suicide go to hell. How can we know the demons that others face. The depression, the constant battle with a skewed reality?

Only Christ can judge the heart. He will justly determine their fate based on Him being all knowing and supreme righteousness.

Those that say "Oh I can sin 24/7 and all is good" is quite different that those that say "I try not to sin but, no matter what, I slip up and sin".



We do sin and remain saved.

Like a spoiled young man, living off of his rich fathers estate... doing things that his father is ashamed of... yet.. he is still his fathers son.

It is not the norm. The majority of Christians are not getting on their knees in humbleness and giving their lives to their savior.. then taking the attitude that they have a free pass to run amuck in the world.

I would question their true repentance.

I will say that there are those, that, due to events in their lives.. back slide and behave in non Christian ways... These people are not lost in the eternal sense. These are the sheep that Christ will go and find again.. they are still His sheep.



You are right. We are to shine so others can see Christ in us. Agreed. We are in the world, not of the world.

But, we still sin... It is Satan's lie that we are supposed to somehow never sin again... or that we lose our salvation when we sin.

Christ set us free from the bondage of sin... Satan wants you to think that you are bound by it.

You are preaching a double message. You say you are different than those who say they can sin 24/7 and yet you also say we do sin and yet we are still saved. Remember, it only took one sin to separate all of mankind from God. Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed by their committing one sin. So I fail to see how you think God is in favor of His people treating sin so lightly or from your perspective. It's like drugs. You start with the smaller ones, and it will lead you to do the big drugs and the next thing you know, you are doing the really bad drugs all the time. If one admits that they will sin, and yet strive not to sin, they are going to find themselves in the same boat as the person who dabbles in the smaller drugs and ends up eventually doing the really bad stuff and thus they destroy their life by their own wickedness.
 
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Jason, it is not my ability to think as God thinks. You are thinking as a man. You are using logic of man. You are falling into the lie of Satan.

As a Christian, I am continually aiming for a sinless day. Those that are not saved... are not continually aiming for a sinless day.. nor do they care. They have not even acknowledged that they are sinners. Or.. that Christ is their savior.. Or that they need salvation...

That is what saves them... Acknowledgement of the fact that they are sinners that need Christ.. and Acknowledgement that Christ is their savior.

Then, and only then, are you free from the bondage of sin... not free from sinning.. but free from the debt of sin.

You say it is not your ability to think as God thinks. Yet, Scripture says we have the mind of Christ (See 1 Corinthians 2:16).
 
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Personally I believe the word faith according to the Greek definition implies devotion which results in obedience and works.

I think it depends on the context. Both Paul and James obviously refer to the word “faith” as a belief. For example: James says he will show you his faith by his works in James 2:18. If faith meant works or faithfulness, then this statement would be illogical. If faith meant faithfulness then James would be saying I will you show you my faithfulness by my faithfulness. It wouldn’t make any sense. I believe faith starts off as a belief that manifests itself by a devotion to that belief (i.e. works of faith). Paul says we are saved by God’s grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means a belief is central to how we first come to Christ and not by any kind of work. The works of faith that we are justified by play a part in the salvation process later (James 2:24).
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think it depends on the context. Both Paul and James obviously refer to the word “faith” as a belief. For example: James says he will show you his faith by his works in James 2:18. If faith meant works or faithfulness, then this statement would be illogical. If faith meant faithfulness then James would be saying I will you show you my faithfulness by my faithfulness. It wouldn’t make any sense. I believe faith starts off as a belief that manifests itself by a devotion to that belief (i.e. works of faith). Paul says we are saved by God’s grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means a belief is central to how we first come to Christ and not by any kind of work. The works of faith that we are justified by play a part in the salvation process later (James 2:24).

No your not quoting me correctly. Replace the word faith with devotion. I will show you my devotion by my works. Your second example is replacing the word works with faithfulness which is definitely not in my example. I said devotion results in obedience and works. If your devoted to someone your obedient to them and you do things to please them. And I don’t know how many times people have tried to explain to you that the word justified not only means made right with God but also means to be shown to be right with God which is exactly what James is talking about and your idea of Abraham being made right with God by his works directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4:1-5.
 
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No your not quoting me correctly. Replace the word faith with devotion. I will show you my devotion by my works. Your second example is replacing the word works with faithfulness which is definitely not in my example. I said devotion results in obedience and works. If your devoted to someone your obedient to them and you do things to please them. And I don’t know how many times people have tried to explain to you that the word justified not only means made right with God but also means to be shown to be right with God which is exactly what James is talking about and your idea of Abraham being made right with God by his works directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4:1-5.

Devotion is the same thing as faithfulness. Devotion is simply a noun of the verb faithfulness.

full


Sources:
I found great synonyms for "faithfulness" on the new Thesaurus.com!
the definition of faithfulness
faithfulness | Definition of faithfulness by Webster's Online Dictionary

For how do you show devotion? By one's deeds, right?
James talks about how even the demons believe and tremble. So he is relating faith to belief because he says even the demons BELIEVE.
Demons do not have devotion to God, but they do have a belief in the existence of God. They know Jesus is the Son of God.
So faith = belief. John 1:12 says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

So just believing on the name of Jesus for salvation gives a person power to become a son of God. For belief is inferior to receiving Christ. It says to EVEN those who BELIEVE in His name. In some cases, the word "faith" can apply to everything Jesus and His followers taught (including how we are also to obey the Lord's commands in the New Covenant), but in many cases "faith" means to believe.
 
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JacksBratt

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Also, there are unbelievers who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior and they believe Jesus is the Savior but they do not want to give up their life of sin because of Jesus. They will admit the Bible is true, but they will not want to give their life to Jesus or follow Jesus. Even the young rich ruler acknowledged that Jesus is the "Good Master" but he was not willing to give up his sin of riches in order to follow Jesus. He kept the moral law, but he was unwilling to do all of what Jesus said by giving up his riches to follow Jesus.

Well, if they don't accept Christ as their savior... their not saved. Your point?

Also, there is no difference morality wise between the atheist and the believer who teaches they can sin and still be saved on some level. There are atheists who do keep certain moral laws and they also strive to be good in the keeping of these moral laws.

Yes there is a huge difference... The believer has accepted Christ and, if they are a Christian, taken responsibility for their sins and accepted Christ's work on the Cross.

An Atheist, on the other hand doesn't think there is a God, heaven, hell or afterlife.

The fact that they understand right and wrong is only proof that they will be held accountable for their actions and will not be able to plead any ignorance. All humans have God's laws written on their heart. All humans break the laws. All humans must pay the price for their sin.. That is death.
 
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JacksBratt

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There are atheists (not all of them - mind you) who strive to live a good and moral life. Take Star Trek as an example (Created by a man who is an atheist). For the show promotes atheism on Star Trek and yet the characters hold to a certain code of conduct (even unto death). They believe in holding certain good laws to the betterment of mankind. Even the character on Star Trek called Picard says they strive to better themselves. Picard is a character who is in most people's minds a hero because he stands behind certain moral principles. Yet, many atheists love this show and stand behind what it says. You also say that you strive to hold to better yourself. So what separates the difference between you and the character of Picard (or those who seek to mimic his good behavior and yet they are an atheist)? Sure, Picard's morality may not be exactly in line with the morality of the Bible in all cases, but lets say that it was. What would separate you in being different as a Christian? A mere belief? Even the demons believe and tremble. What if an axe murder professed to their soon to be new victim that they believe in Jesus? Would they be saved if they genuinely believed in Jesus? I would say that such an individual is not saved. Yet, you seem to think Christians can commit other sins and it is okay because they are striving not to do those sins, but yet you say they will do those sins because no believer can overcome sin this side of heaven. So it then boils down to what sins are more acceptable and that you can do and yet still be saved, right? Lying? Lusting after a woman? That's not like murder so you can probably stumble in doing that every once in a while and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus?

Good for them.. They can "strive" to do good with all their might.... They are still sinners and must pay the debt of sin... death...


Or.. accept Christ.. which they don't believe exists...

Good people will never be "good" enough.. We need Christ's work on the cross. He paid the debt.. I cannot. Not if I was to gain the entire world and give it up would I have enough to pay the price...
 
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No your not quoting me correctly. Replace the word faith with devotion. I will show you my devotion by my works. Your second example is replacing the word works with faithfulness which is definitely not in my example. I said devotion results in obedience and works. If your devoted to someone your obedient to them and you do things to please them.

There is no such thing as devotion without some kind of works. A person who just married his wife 5 seconds ago can say that he is devoted to her, but it would not make any sense because he has not proven himself that he is devoted yet. There needs to at least be a good amount of time to pass before he and others can say that he is devoted to her. To say that he is devoted to his wife after he just married her a few seconds after doesn't really mean anything. He can make a covenant or a promise to stand by her, but that is not exactly devotion. It is merely a covenant being made or an agreement to certain facts before one will show forth their devotion by their deeds. Devotion does not exist without a person's actions showing that they are devoted.

You said:
And I don’t know how many times people have tried to explain to you that the word justified not only means made right with God but also means to be shown to be right with God which is exactly what James is talking about

I am not in disagreement that the word "justified" means "to be made right with God." The word "justified" is another word for "salvation." A person is justified (saved, made right with God) by having a belief in Jesus, AND they are justified (saved, made right with God) by their works of faith (that follow their belief). James says he will show his faith (belief) by his works (works of faith or works that come from him believing in Jesus).

You said:
and your idea of Abraham being made right with God by his works directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4:1-5.

No it doesn't. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:1-5, Paul is fighting against "Works ALONE Salvationism" and NOT "works of faith" that follows one's belief or faith in the Savior. His focus in these verses is in teaching that we are initially and ultimately saved by a belief in Jesus as our Savior. Proof?

In Romans 4: Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness (salvation). BUT.... Abraham had to also later show his belief by his works to maintain his salvation. How so? Genesis 17:14 says that if one is not circumcised, they are cut off from his people and broken God's covenant. So Abraham had to LATER be faithful by doing a work of faith as a part of the covenant.

In the book of Romans and Galatians, Paul is arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is trying to say that you had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved instead of making Jesus Christ the foundation of your faith by believing or receiving Him as your Savior) (To learn about the false heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" that was trying to deceive Christians, see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24; Also see: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21).

"Circumcision Salvationism" is the same thing as "Works ALONE Salvationism" because if one believes that circumcision is the entry gate to salvation, it is then the foundation of how one is saved and thus it would be "works" in how we would be saved and not grace. But this is false. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Hence, why Paul talked the way that he did.

But there are many who twist the words of Paul today and think that he was referring to all law, or all forms of works (including "works of faith" that follow God's grace) when this is clearly not the case. For Jesus and His followers clearly teach that certain grievous sins can still separate a believer from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8); They also taught that keeping His commandments is a part of inheriting eternal life, too (Matthew 19:17) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 3:23) (Revelation 22:14-15).
 
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Good for them.. They can "strive" to do good with all their might.... They are still sinners and must pay the debt of sin... death...


Or.. accept Christ.. which they don't believe exists...

Good people will never be "good" enough.. We need Christ's work on the cross. He paid the debt.. I cannot. Not if I was to gain the entire world and give it up would I have enough to pay the price...

The choice is up to you to check out the portions of Scripture that I have shared with you prior and to believe them. For as I have said to others before, the Bible is clear that the requirements for salvation are:

#1. Faith (belief in Jesus as our Savior) (John 1:12) (Acts of the Apostles 16:31) (Ephesians 2:8) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Romans 3:24-25) (Romans 4:1-5) (Galatians 3:22) (1 John 3:23), and:

#2. Works of Faith (that follow after being saved by God's grace through faith) (Matthew 19:17-19) (Matthew 25:30) (Luke 10:25-28) (James 1:21) (James 2:24) (Titus 1:16) (Hebrews 5:9) (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (James 4:6) (Romans 6:22) (Romans 8:13) (Romans 11:21-22) (Revelation 22:14-15).

Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.
 
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Good for them.. They can "strive" to do good with all their might.... They are still sinners and must pay the debt of sin... death...


Or.. accept Christ.. which they don't believe exists...

Good people will never be "good" enough.. We need Christ's work on the cross. He paid the debt.. I cannot. Not if I was to gain the entire world and give it up would I have enough to pay the price...

Another point here that you are ignoring is not only Scriptural, but you are ignoring basic morality, as well. A belief alone does not make a person moral or good. If there is one thing we know about God's character is that He is moral and good, and holy. God destroys the wicked because of their bad behavior. A belief alone does not really separate the wicked from those believers who say they can sin and still be saved on some level. They are not better morally speaking. Both justify sin in some way. But God does not justify sin, so I fail to see how you think that His people can do that on any level.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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But it appears to me that some believe salvation can be lost and regained several times a day. One slip, regardless of a past record of righteousness, and you’re unsaved until the moment of confession and repentance, is mind boggling. I have heard numerous born again Christians cussing up a storm in Iraq when under stress and fear. Were they momentarily unsaved? Or was that somehow proof they weren’t saved in the first place? Chances are, in the heat of the moment, they didn’t even remember doing it and thus never confessed. Are they waking around right now, perhaps even at a small group Bible study, unsaved because of forgetting to confess?

I don’t think about murder or theft or adultery. Those are easy to avoid (for most people). I think about the unseen sins. Negative thinking, resentment, fear, wasting natural resources, NOT really caring about my neighbors. Nobody ever talks about those.

We have an assurance of salvation that makes us realize that "one slip" will not remove you from God's love and protection and that exists throughout the Scriptures since time began, though most fail to see it. God is merciful and his loving kindness is without end.

Jesus said love is the key to fulfilling The Law [and he was revealing The Law as it applies under The New Covenant for the Old Covenant was by letter and love works without the letter (even nature teaches this)].

1. Love God.
If you truly love God, would you do anything that offends him? Think, what does love do?

Paul give advice concerning this in 1 Corinthians 13. Apply these things to your relationship with God, how are you treating him?

2. Love your neighbour [others].
The advice of 1 Corinthians 13 continues to apply here.

Most of us have experienced love from one source or another, it is not hard for us to determine what true love is [though we may need to learn how to relate our own selves to that].

I am not one who would consider "cussing up a storm in Iraq" as a sin, that is just emotion to me and means very little. I would not be surprised if such a one would feel it was not "very Christian" afterward and consider they should not have done it [I, myself would likely feel that way], but that's the relational thing, not wishing to offend or give a bad witness. I doubt that they would not remember it.

I noticed your "unseen sins" and it made me smile. I think you are going to meet resistance as to their not being Scriptural examples. Perhaps you would like to show how they are?

The secret to overcoming unseen sins is to realize that they are all seen by God for nothing is hid from him. Its a sobering thought. That is why God is my judge. He knows all the things you don't.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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No your not quoting me correctly. Replace the word faith with devotion. I will show you my devotion by my works. Your second example is replacing the word works with faithfulness which is definitely not in my example. I said devotion results in obedience and works. If your devoted to someone your obedient to them and you do things to please them. And I don’t know how many times people have tried to explain to you that the word justified not only means made right with God but also means to be shown to be right with God which is exactly what James is talking about and your idea of Abraham being made right with God by his works directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4:1-5.

My brother, consider the whole context of Scripture. Was Abraham's faith without action? Does Paul preach that grace excuses continuance in sin [see Romans 6]?

This whole debate is really about the question should Christians continue to live in sin, or no? Is grace a license to sin? What happens to those who treat grace this way?

Perhaps give your answer to these questions and maybe raise some of your own.
 
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ColoRaydo

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This whole debate is really about the question should Christians continue to live in sin, or no? Is grace a license to sin? What happens to those who treat grace this way?

I think this whole debate is a breakdown in communication.

No one has said Christians can continue to live in sin nor that grace is a license to sin.

What the other posters in “my camp” have said is that even as Christians, we still miss the mark. We don’t willing do so, we don’t mean to do so, but we still fall short. No matter how hard we try, we fail to achieve perfection. In fact the more I try, the more my imperfections are revealed.

The impression I get from “the other camp” is that they have achieved a level of sinlessness, albeit by God’s Grace. We think they are fooling themselves with pride.

We say, “I am not worthy except for the grace of God because I have fallen, do fall, and will continue to fall” (the goal of course is to fall as little as possible). Nowhere has anyone said because of that we don’t have to keep trying.

As far as your question about showing you where my list of unseen sins are mentioned in the Bible, I can’t. The Bible indeed does not mention anything about throwing plastic bags into the Pacific Ocean or blatantly wasting water, but it doesn’t mean it’s not sin. The specific sins mentioned in scripture also have intent. Just because something isn’t specifically mentioned, doesn’t mean it’s outside of the intent.

I think we “faith alone” types believe we are required to be obedient through good works. We simply don’t believe our good works can ever be good enough to complete the work Jesus has already done. He completed it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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My brother, consider the whole context of Scripture. Was Abraham's faith without action? Does Paul preach that grace excuses continuance in sin [see Romans 6]?

This whole debate is really about the question should Christians continue to live in sin, or no? Is grace a license to sin? What happens to those who treat grace this way?

Perhaps give your answer to these questions and maybe raise some of your own.

Bless you my friend but I think you mistake my position. Brother Jason actually does believe that works actually play a role in our salvation. I on the other hand believe that we are saved by faith that produces works. I do not believe in salvation by faith without works. In James 2 brother James mentions two different types of faith. He mentions a saving faith which produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. John 15 Jesus says we must abide in Him and bear fruit. The Father cuts off any branch who is “in Christ” that does not bear fruit. These branches are thrown away to wither then gathered and thrown into the fire to burn. Personally I believe bearing fruit or doing good works is about loving others. If we love others we will help those in need. I believe people who are condemned for not bearing fruit or doing good works, like the goats for example, are condemned not because they didn’t do the work but because they didn’t love others.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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I think we “faith alone” types believe we are required to be obedient through good works. We simply don’t believe our good works can ever be good enough to complete the work Jesus has already done. He completed it.

Well, I would also claim to be "faith alone" because I do not see good works as completing anything and, yes, he completed it. However I do not feel chained to sin because of it. I believe it is because Jesus Christ has completed everything that I have the power not to sin. It is no longer "I" living but Christ living in me. So when I say "I do not sin" it is really Christ who does not sin. The life "I" live, "I" live by the faith of [ or faith in if you want to debate something really silly] the Son of God.

So if I say I have not sinned in the last twenty years [actually, wouldn't remember if I did or not, don't keep long accounts] it is not actually "I" but Christ who has not sinned.

This is why I have always argued sinlessness is not perfection [as it has been so incorrectly labeled] , it is simply abiding in Christ. I in him and He in me.

I discovered this wonderful truth some 25 years ago after asking God, "If we are saved by faith, why is it so hard to be a Christian?"

I was reading Romans and found my answer in chapter six. Unfortunately most people concentrate on Romans 7 "poor weak contemptible me" completely missing Paul's answer at the end of the chapter. How do I escape? Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now you go back to what he teaches is Romans 6, how does Christ give me this victory? Simply "I" die and he lives through me. This is what water baptism signifies. So when I was tempted in the flesh I simply said, "I don't have to do that. I'm dead to that. Christ is living in me now and he doesn't do that."

Wow! It was amazing. Miraculous! Things that kept me in bondage for so long just fell away.

So, you see, I live by "faith alone".

I agree with you, there is a breakdown in communication. Thank you for your clarification.

I like to use the analogy of the mechanic whose hobby is restoring cars. He is always working on cars only the one he sees as work, the other is pleasure. I have the pleasure of living free from sin because of Jesus Christ.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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Bless you my friend but I think you mistake my position. Brother Jason actually does believe that works actually play a role in our salvation.

I apologize. I cannot answer for the accusation against Jason, he must answer that.

The case I was simply trying to make is that I think the whole argument is because we so often do not take the whole counsel of God into account when stating our case. Perhaps, if your accusation is true, Jason needs to take this into account.

Yes, love is the key. It is amazing how far true love will go to helping and protecting the other.
 
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I apologize. I cannot answer for the accusation against Jason, he must answer that.

The case I was simply trying to make is that I think the whole argument is because we so often do not take the whole counsel of God into account when stating our case. Perhaps, if your accusation is true, Jason needs to take this into account.

Yes, love is the key. It is amazing how far true love will go to helping and protecting the other.

I am a non-denominational, Trinitarian, Sola Scriptura Christian, and I believe Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation because that is what the Bible plainly teaches. Paul was arguing against "Works Alone Salvationism" and or going back to the Old Law (the Torah) (the 613 Laws given to Moses as a whole contractually speaking). We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (by believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and this usually (in most cases) also includes seeking forgiveness with Jesus Christ, too).

In the book of Romans and Galatians, Paul was arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism" so that is why he argued so heavily against "Works Alone Salvationism" (That did not include God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ) (To see the false heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" that Paul and others were against, see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). For if a person thinks they need to be first circumcised in order to be saved, then they are going to by-pass God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ over a work so as to be initially and ultimately saved.

I believe you are right when you say that believers do not take into account the whole counsel of God's Word. This is exactly what one must do if one believes in Faith Alone or Belief Alone-ism (in regards to salvation). How so? Well, the Bible is clear.


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).​

If you believe that believers are changed or regenerated to a point spiritually whereby they will automatically do good works in time, then why are we told in Scripture to endure until the end as a part of salvation?

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.​

Why are we told to overcome as a part of having our name in the book of life? Why are we told to keep ourselves in the love of God if it is some kind of automatic thing? Think. OSAS leads people to think that they can treat God's grace as a license to sin. For many have already done so already. Many have committed suicide thinking they were saved. Just look at this article here about an OSAS proponent named George Sodini. He killed a bunch of people and then killed himself and thought he was saved by having a belief on Jesus. At least, that is what he confessed in his suicide letter.

George Sodini - OSAS Proponent - Mass Murderer, & Suicide Victim.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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I am a non-denominational, Trinitarian, Sola Scriptura Christian, and I believe Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation because that is what the Bible plainly teaches.

Thank you Jason.

Now the point that I was making is that I would not disagree with you because the whole argument is based on semantics. I would simply say to you that it is not the works that save us but faith.

Although you would like to contend with me, hear me out. I defend you because of the long list of Scriptures you quote but there is a more correct view of what you are stating.

Please note that I am not OSAS and I do not wish to dwell on any dirty linen in their closet. There are some very committed Christians who are OSAS who have a deep love and reverence for God who shiver at your accusations because they are not true to them.

I often say, if you say you're saved, show you're saved; and all the scriptures you quote support this. Can there truly be salvation where one is evidently not saved but still drowning in the mire of sin?

I suppose I would write my equation this way Christ + Faith = Salvation(Fruits of Righteousness [also called works of faith])

Can I truly say I'm saved without the fruits? Jesus said, "Every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

We all know that the redeemed are not thrown into the fire and therefore it becomes important to produce fruit. These are the works you talk about but they are not the reason salvation is rewarded, rather they are the rewards of salvation and a witness to the fact that I am saved.

I would not have a salvation without these works for they are the witness that I am saved and a part of my testimony of God's power.

I encourage people not to quote scriptures at me stating they are saved, rather give evidence that you are saved for the Bible says, "Whoever is born of God does not sin."

Do you have evidence that this is taking place in your life?

How do we show such evidence? By all the scriptures you quoted in your post.
 
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Thank you Jason.

Now the point that I was making is that I would not disagree with you because the whole argument is based on semantics. I would simply say to you that it is not the works that save us but faith.

No. James says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

You said:
Although you would like to contend with me, hear me out. I defend you because of the long list of Scriptures you quote but there is a more correct view of what you are stating.

Defend me from your point of view on the Scriptures? But if it is against the truth as revealed in Scripture, then it is not really a real defense, my friend.

You said:
Please note that I am not OSAS and I do not wish to dwell on any dirty linen in their closet.

I am 100% aware of those who deny OSAS and yet they are Belief Alone-ism or they are Faith Alone. Generally, Free Will Baptists tend to hold to this belief. I was on a forum where many were Free Will Baptists, and I was banned for speaking against their precious Faith Alone doctrine. I did not attack them personally, but merely attacked the wrong belief. Then again, this is nothing new. I was banned at another Christian website wrongfully for speaking out against OSAS. Most today believe in Faith Alone. It is the popular belief on salvation that most hold to today. But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that finds it.

You said:
There are some very committed Christians who are OSAS who have a deep love and reverence for God who shiver at your accusations because they are not true to them.

I have been arguing against OSAS for many years now on various forums and with a couple of people in person (Including two pastors after the service). So it is not a new thing for me.

I have discovered that there are three major types of Eternal Security, or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I classify them as follows:

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).​

Anyways, the fact of the matter we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
(Note: The WMA, and MP3 files in this source link may not work; But the Real Video Audio files do work last I checked; So please select the Real Video Audio files).

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini

More Suicide Victims and OSAS:
SUICIDE Commit Suicide Symptoms Suicidal Victims

You said:
I often say, if you say you're saved, show you're saved; and all the scriptures you quote support this. Can there truly be salvation where one is evidently not saved but still drowning in the mire of sin?

Again, this is not what Scripture teaches. God's Word does not say that those who genuinely accept Christ and or had salvation at one time will always persevere. God does not force us to be a certain way after a one time decision we made.

You conveniently ignored the verses I put forth to you before. I will give them to you again, but I would like for you to explain them instead of you ignoring them.

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.​

Words like "endure to the end shall be saved," "the man who endures temptation shall receive the crown of life," be faithful unto death and receive the crown of life," "he that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death," and "keep yourselves in the love of God" is not consistent with what you are saying. You say that believers will automatically do what is good and right. But if this is so, then the Bible would not tell us to endure, overcome, and to keep ourselves in the love of God if such were the case.

You said:
I suppose I would write my equation this way Christ + Faith = Salvation(Fruits of Righteousness [also called works of faith])

Can I truly say I'm saved without the fruits? Jesus said, "Every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

You are preaching a double message like most Belief Alone or Faith Alone proponents.

#1. On the one hand, you say we are not saved by works (and):
#2. On the other hand, you say we are saved by works because works are always going to be the by-product of a true or genuine faith.

I believe our works is the proof that Christ abides in us. No works, and no Christ. But if our very gospel message makes for an allowance for sin on some level, by telling others that they are not saved by doing any kind of work (Which relates to sin), then we are teaching that when we sin, we do not become unsaved in any way (Which is contrary to what the Bible teaches - See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

You said:
We all know that the redeemed are not thrown into the fire and therefore it becomes important to produce fruit. These are the works you talk about but they are not the reason salvation is rewarded, rather they are the rewards of salvation and a witness to the fact that I am saved. I would not have a salvation without these works for they are the witness that I am saved and a part of my testimony of God's power.

It sounds like we agree, but we really do not agree because the very message of Faith Alone has led others into thinking they can sin and still be saved (Whether you want that to happen or not). It is the reality of the message itself.

You said:
I encourage people not to quote scriptures at me stating they are saved, rather give evidence that you are saved for the Bible says, "Whoever is born of God does not sin."

Nowhere was I talking about my own personal salvation. I was talking about salvation in general terms so as to address the topic of thread. If you are new to posting on Christian forums, I would suggest that post verses to support your claim and to address the verses I have brought forth.

You said:
Do you have evidence that this is taking place in your life? How do we show such evidence? By all the scriptures you quoted in your post.

It is written,
5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

Also, the forum rules state we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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No. James says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Sigh. You hold the brush and you paint contention where there is none.

Yes, but my faith is not without works so I cannot show it to you this way, but these works are not mine they are the Christ who dwells in me. Therefore I cannot show you my works. However I cannot show you faith without works because I know of no such thing ...by grace are ye saved...unto good works. Good works are as natural to the saved as sin is to the unsaved.

You conveniently ignored the verses I put forth to you before. I will give them to you again, but I would like for you to explain them instead of you ignoring them.

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

How am I ignoring them if I am living them? How many times must I say that I resist temptation and encourage others to do the same? Why must I boast of the strength of Christ that is in me as though it were my own? Why do you tempt me?

Tell me, where does the strength to do the work come from, is it your own, or is it Christ's?

I will overcome this temptation and speak to you as Christ spoke to Peter, saying, get behind me Satan.

And in that statement I have explained to you all of the above scriptures.

Do you create contention because you love contention? It is time you began to love Christ.

And with that I fulfill the first scripture you quoted above.
 
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