Excluding from Eucharist/Communion

ml5363

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As I mentioned I was already a Christian from baptism as an infant. The only change is that now I don't believe most of what is taught as Christianity. What makes a person a Christian?


Being baptized as an infant, does not save you..you were unable to make those choices as an infant..Christ offers anyone who will come a free gift, it is up to us to resend and accept his gift.

I actually had communion tonight at our church...we usually do a few times a year...last church I was at seemed only once or twice a year...we do it as a remembrance for Christ and what he did on the cross to save us. Pastor gives us a sermon, and we have an invitation to get any unconfessed sin out of our life , so we can take.
 
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Radagast

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As I mentioned I was already a Christian from baptism as an infant. The only change is that now I don't believe most of what is taught as Christianity. What makes a person a Christian?

For the purposes of the Eucharist, the Anglican liturgy itself answers that question.

The Eucharist is only for those who follow Christ. If you cannot say "we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee," then it is not for you.

The Eucharist is only for those who acknowledge their sin. That is why we say a prayer of confession first.

The Eucharist is only for those who accept the Nicene Creed. That is why we are required to say the Creed first.
 
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PloverWing

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I worshiped this morning at my daughter's Episcopal church. Before Communion, this was the invitation that was given:

"Wherever you are in your journey of faith, you are welcome at this Table."

I thought of you, @cloudyday2 . :)
 
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cloudyday2

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I think a Christian is one who follows Jesus. But the issue you're facing is can you follow Jesus if you find his message and the Christian community attractive but don't really believe what Jesus taught? Most people in CF would say no. Some Episcopaleans might accept it. Communion is inherently connected with Jesus' death. Do you think Jesus died for you, or at least for a humanity of which you're part, and thus communion would acknowledge you as part of the people for which he died?
Of course I am not certain that Christianity has any spiritual merit whatsoever, but assuming for a moment that Christianity is true in some way here is what I think: The Crucifixion was simply the tragic outcome of the rejection of Jesus by Jewish authorities. The claimed earthquake and darkness and rending of the Temple's veil were God's angry response to this rejection. The Resurrection was God's way of saying "the stone that the builders rejected will be the corner stone". The later destruction of the Temple by the Romans was further evidence that God had nullified the Old Covenant and had moved-on to a New Covenant.

So assuming Communion is anything at all, I think it symbolizes gathering (into one loaf of bread), and it reminds of the New Covenant created in response the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus (wine).

Several years ago when I was Eastern Orthodox I seemed to be guided by odd coincidences into a situation where I had to either join in a Methodist communion ceremony or recuse myself due to my church's rules. I prayed hurriedly that God would show me what Communion was and then (to make a long story short) I saw a series of rapid visions that left me shocked and confused. So I've thought about that over the years, and it seemed that God was showing me different incorrect ways that people understand Communion culminating in a vision showing the more correct way of understanding Communion. That correct understanding was a gathering of people into one community centered on Jesus.

Of course the human brain can deceive people when they are stressed-out, so that is another possibility. But I have no reason to believe in God at all if I dismiss experiences like that. Hopefully that clarifies.
 
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TheOldWays

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I grew-up in the Episcopal Church and received communion many times, but now my beliefs are confused and probably closer to agnostic. If I attend an Episcopal Church then the issue of communion will arise. I believe that Jesus (if he exists) would not exclude anybody from communion - even skeptics and militant non-believers. So either Christianity is fantasy and participating in communion is harmless, or Christianity is true in some subtle way and NOT participating in communion is a rejection and/or misunderstanding of Jesus and God

i'd just do what you want. if you feel like taking communion, then do it, regardless of belief. i used to go to church with my wife, was pretty agnostic at the time. i liked communion though as they served real wine and it was nice to get a shot of the good stuff so early on a Sunday. so that was my reasoning for taking it and all was well. so whatever your reasoning is will be fine too. just don't go to a Baptist church, they just have grape juice. :(
 
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Rajni

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If 1 Corinthians 11:27 is truth, then at this point I think I would
refrain from partaking no matter what church I was in, because
I wouldn't want to presume my worthiness. I may think I'm
worthy enough... but am I really?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I believe that Jesus (if he exists) would not exclude anybody from communion

And yet , He spoke, saying "Many are sick and dying" among the Ekklesia meeting in assembly because they were not excluded when they were sinning.
So Jesus instead of excluding them, was letting them congregate, and because they did while sinning while not repenting of their sin, they got sick (many of them), and some died because of this.

See? Go by God's Word, not by your feelings nor beliefs, for truth.

See all of Corinthians for more description and context; et al. (and other places as Yahweh guides you)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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As I mentioned I was already a Christian from baptism as an infant. The only change is that now I don't believe most of what is taught as Christianity. What makes a person a Christian?
Be born again by the Father's Will(not man's).


By the way, this is GOOD! .... What men teach is not usually truth. As God's Word Says: "They honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me"
 
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Albion

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After all this discussion, I go back to the OP and it tells us there that there is a possible conflict. Should Cloudyday commune if he believes in Christ in some degree or in his own way, but is reluctant to refrain if refraining would represent a rejection of Christ? Well, refraining does NOT mean that.

Therefore, I would say that 1) communion would be permissible so long as that is the policy of the church in question (yes, if Episcopal; no, if EO, etc.) and 2) declining to commune would be appropriate in just about every church, if that is what Cloudyday does.

By the way, the sight of a person who does not commune is taken in stride by the other worshippers regardless of denomination; they figure that such a person has his own reasons, that's all).
 
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dzheremi

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We proclaim in our liturgies "The holies are for the holy!" as a warning and reminder to all the gravity of taking communion unworthily, and the high standard to which we are held as Christians. That is incompatible with any kind of laissez faire attitude towards communion, but obviously others have a different standard. This may be one of those things that the Episcopalians allow (I have no idea; I've never been to an Episcopalian service), but even that would not solve the personal turmoil within the person who may not believe in the Christian faith -- that Christ, Who definitely existed (not even anti-Christian scholars like Bart Erhman doubt this), was incarnate, lived, preached, and taught, and at the appointed time gave Himself up willingly on the holy wood of the cross for the salvation of all who believe in Him -- and is thus struggling with the idea of taking communion.

That is why I counseled earlier in the thread that you should figure out what you believe before tackling what you should (or shouldn't) then do. It is not only about what is allowed in a particular context. Holy scripture teaches us that while all things are allowed, not all things edify. The reception of the Holy Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is certainly one of those things that should edify (and really much more than that; in Orthodox theology, it sanctifies and deifies man, but that's another topic), but as neither Christ nor any church that I am aware of can force Christian belief upon anyone who shows up to their services, it is best to rely again on scriptures that caution against receiving unworthily in those cases where there may be some grey area.

And really this is not one of those cases anyway. I will state it plainly, with the utmost respect for what I perceive to be a real dilemma in the mind of the OP and the context of a church that would allow him to receive even if he does not believe: In the normative practice of all Christianity (i.e., Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Nestorian -- literally all of them) throughout time, a person who would partake of the Eucharistic sacrifice without believing would by definition be receiving unworthily. Lacking true Christian belief makes the recipient unworthy to receive, and hence they would condemn themselves according to the standard of the scriptures, regardless of how nice any particular church feels like being in letting non-believers receive.

I do not phrase things this way to condemn anyone or any church, but to remind as to the biblical and historical standard, still kept to by many churches (including my own but of course also many others). This stuff is not to be taken lightly. Condemnation is very serious. I would not want to have to answer for such an act, and have in my own past therefore voluntarily removed myself from communion (and here I'm talking for three years before becoming Orthodox) with the Roman Catholic Church which I was then a part of, out of respect for the seriousness of what receiving communion there means. There really isn't any space in any form of traditional Christianity for doing anything else, because traditionally communion is also a sign of visible assent to theological and ecclesiological unity with whoever you take it from. This is is why I couldn't now receive from the hand of an RC priest, even though they allow OO and EO to receive from them; it would mean automatic excommunication for having sought a sacrament outside of the Orthodox Church. I'm sure you know the strict ecclesiological standard held to by the EO since you were once one, OP, but then imagine if your standard was even more restrictive by virtue of having only accepted three councils, as is the case with the OO. I cannot receive from hardly anyone (okay, there are ~ 90 million of us, but only in six churches, compared to 20+ for both kinds of Chalcedonians), and yet I press on because I believe this is the correct place to be. Do you believe the same about the Episcopalians? It doesn't seem so, if they are traditional Trinitarian, Christ-believing Christians (which I thought they were; someone please correct me if that is wrong) and you are not sure that Jesus Christ even existed. Those two things can't be in unity with each other, so why would you act as though they are by taking communion there?

I hope this doesn't come off as haranguing or speaking negatively of others, as that is not my intent. I just hope that you will really think about what you do or don't do and why, because communion is so important on many levels beyond "Will they allow me to or not".
 
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cloudyday2

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If 1 Corinthians 11:27 is truth, then at this point I think I would
refrain from partaking no matter what church I was in, because
I wouldn't want to presume my worthiness. I may think I'm
worthy enough... but am I really?
@RayJeena and @yeshuaslavejeff , I was reading this morning about possible interpolations in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11. There is a tidy structure to Paul's writing that becomes clumsy and confusing in those chapters, and the views expressed seem inconsistent with Paul's views recorded elsewhere. The Eucharist section is one likely victim of these interpolations. I have always thought those verses sounded fishy, so learning about these interpolations reinforces my skepticism.
 
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hedrick

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That correct understanding was a gathering of people into one community centered on Jesus.
I'm sure you know that there's a range of views on communion. This is within the normal range, I think. Official Presbyterian theology says also that when we participate in communion with faith, the Holy Spirit unites us spiritually with Christ.
 
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Rajni

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@RayJeena and @yeshuaslavejeff , I was reading this morning about possible interpolations in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11. There is a tidy structure to Paul's writing that becomes clumsy and confusing in those chapters, and the views expressed seem inconsistent with Paul's views recorded elsewhere. The Eucharist section is one likely victim of these interpolations. I have always thought those verses sounded fishy, so learning about these interpolations reinforces my skepticism.
I have found in the past that 1 Corinthians 11:10 seemed rather randomly pieced together:

"It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels."

You know... Because angels. :)
 
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cloudyday2

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Do you believe the same about the Episcopalians? It doesn't seem so, if they are traditional Trinitarian, Christ-believing Christians (which I thought they were; someone please correct me if that is wrong) and you are not sure that Jesus Christ even existed. Those two things can't be in unity with each other, so why would you act as though they are by taking communion there?
Thanks for the good information. Just to clarify, I believe there was probably a historical Jesus, and I suspect that there is a benevolent higher power of some kind (call it God), and for better or for worse the teachings of Jesus guide my efforts at self-improvement. I am also open to the possibility that Jesus is the gateway to experiencing and knowing God. ... But I am also aware that the atheists might be right.

Of course all your concerns about my participation in communion still apply. I just wanted to clarify my views on Christianity.
 
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cloudyday2

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Being baptized as an infant, does not save you..you were unable to make those choices as an infant..Christ offers anyone who will come a free gift, it is up to us to resend and accept his gift.
Thanks, as a college student I began to have doubts about Christianity, and I thought that these doubts would be diminished if I had a conversion experience or was filled by the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues or something. So I was baptized a second time at one of the mega churches in LA where some friends and I were attending (First Foursquare Church). This second baptism didn't change anything for me, so I gradually lost faith. Then I was baptized a third time when I converted to Eastern Orthodox more recently.
 
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If 1 Corinthians 11:27 is truth, then at this point I think I would
refrain from partaking no matter what church I was in, because
I wouldn't want to presume my worthiness. I may think I'm
worthy enough... but am I really?

I always thought the "unworthiness" in 1 Corinthians 11 referred to doing things like literally hogging the Eucharist wine and getting drunk on it. I mean, Paul was chastising people who were behaving really badly in that letter.
 
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Radagast

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I have found in the past that 1 Corinthians 11:10 seemed rather randomly pieced together:

"It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels."

You know... Because angels. :)

There's not a shred of evidence that this section of 1 Corinthians is interpolated. The difficulty lies in the fact that Paul is relying on a shared understanding with his readers that we sometimes lack. They knew what he meant by "angels" (or perhaps "messengers").

Another cryptic passage is 1 Corinthians 15:29.
 
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Radagast

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I always thought the "unworthiness" in 1 Corinthians 11 referred to doing things like literally hogging the Eucharist wine and getting drunk on it. I mean, Paul was chastising people who were behaving really badly in that letter.

Paul was chastising people who did not "discern the body."

There is disagreement as to whether that means the body of Christ (sacrificed for sinners), or the body of Christians (gathered together as brothers and sisters), or indeed both.

Either way, a non-Christian should not be participating in the Eucharist.
 
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hedrick

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There's not a shred of evidence that this section of 1 Corinthians is interpolated. The difficulty lies in the fact that Paul is relying on a shared understanding with his readers that we sometimes lack. They knew what he meant by "angels" (or perhaps "messengers").

Another cryptic passage is 1 Corinthians 15:29.
Some commentators think it might refer to something in the correspondence from the Corinthians to him.
 
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