Eating the flesh of your sons

doubtingmerle

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Leviticus 26:29 lists this punishment on those who disobey God: "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." One cannot imagine a God choosing this as a punishment. How can this be?
 

Tree of Life

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Leviticus 26:29 lists this punishment on those who disobey God: "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." One cannot imagine a God choosing this as a punishment. How can this be?

This actually happened during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. The prophets of the 6th century BC taught that this came upon Israel because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness to Yahweh. Many critical scholars believe that Leviticus was written in exile because this punishment seems so specific (and prophetic).
 
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Sabertooth

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Occams Barber

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This actually happened during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. The prophets of the 6th century BC taught that this came upon Israel because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness to Yahweh. Many critical scholars believe that Leviticus was written in exile because this punishment seems so specific (and prophetic).
According to Leviticus your God imposed this (cannibalism), along with threatening other extreme punishments, for failing to stick with the rules he imposed.

I think Merle's point is that God's punishment is extreme and immoral by our standards. How can you justify His actions?
OB
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Leviticus 26:29 lists this punishment on those who disobey God: "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." One cannot imagine a God choosing this as a punishment. How can this be?
Leviticus is just 1 of a number of OT Hebrew books that mention Cannibalism.

Deuteronomy 28...the blessings and cursings.....
The cursings have almost 4 times the verses than the blessings"

Deuteronomy 28:
The Blessings of Obedience [14 verses]
(Leviticus 25:18-22; Deuteronomy 4:1-14; Deuteronomy 11:1-7)

1It shall happen, if you shall listen diligently to the voice of Yahweh your God, to observe to do all his commandments which I command you this day, that Yahweh your God will set you on high above all the nations of the earth:.......
The Curses of Disobedience [53 verses]
(Leviticus 20:1-9; Leviticus 26:14-39; 1 Samuel 15:1-9; 1 Kings 13:11-34)

15But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to the voice of Yahweh your God.........that all these curses shall come on you, and overtake you...............
53 “You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you,
in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you.
55 “so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat,
because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
Ditto also here:
Jeremiah 19:9
“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege
and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair.” '
Ezekiel 22 is particularly harsh......it appears to be a future prophecy against 1st century 70ad Jerusalem.
The siege started on the Jewish feast of the Passover, when multitudes of Jews from all surrounding areas would gather celebrate it.

Ezekiel 22:
17The word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 18Son of man, the house of Israel is become dross to me:...........
19Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh:
Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20As they gather silver and brass and iron and lead and tin into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire on it, to melt it;
so will I gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will lay you there, and melt you.
21Yes, I will gather you, and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst
=========
New Testament:

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be building up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Luke 21:23
But woe to them that are with child and those who give suck in those days,
for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.
Luke 23:
28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of Jerusalem...........
29 For behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck'.
The 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem and Temple as recorded by Josephus:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. --
Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ;
the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament,
and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived
Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive..... a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it.........At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes..........
The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ;........

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem,................

Thus awfully complete an ever, beyond example, were the calamities which befel the Jewish nation, and especially the city of Jerusalem. With what truth, then, did our LORD declare, that there should "be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.
A person made some utube videos of that event...

Best viewed wide screen.
.........................
.........................
.........................



 
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HTacianas

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Leviticus 26:29 lists this punishment on those who disobey God: "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." One cannot imagine a God choosing this as a punishment. How can this be?

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2Ki 6:26 - Then, as the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him, saying, “Help, my lord, O king!”

2Ki 6:27 - And he said, “If the LORD does not help you, where can I find help for you? From the threshing floor or from the winepress?”

2Ki 6:28 - Then the king said to her, “What is troubling you?” And she answered, “This woman said to me, ‘Give your son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.’

2Ki 6:29 - “So we boiled my son, and ate him. And I said to her on the next day, ‘Give your son, that we may eat him’; but she has hidden her son.”
 
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Tree of Life

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According to Leviticus your God imposed this (cannibalism), along with threatening other extreme punishments, for failing to stick with the rules he imposed.

I think Merle's point is that God's punishment is extreme and immoral by our standards. How can you justify His actions?
OB

The Israelite cannibalism came as a result of extreme famine induced by military siege. There are many moral agents involved in the situation. Why do you only assign responsibility to God?
 
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Occams Barber

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The Israelite cannibalism came as a result of extreme famine induced by military siege. There are many moral agents involved in the situation. Why do you only assign responsibility to God?

Based on a reading of Leviticus Chapter 26. God clearly states the good things he will do if the Israelites toe the line and also states what punishments he will impose if they don't. The statements are in the unambiguous form of "I will..."

Whether or not other agents are involved in the process of carrying out God's wishes is immaterial to God being clearly responsible for the outcome.

I'm not a Bible scholar but there appears to be no ambiguity in what Leviticus is saying.
OB
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The Israelite cannibalism came as a result of extreme famine induced by military siege. There are many moral agents involved in the situation. Why do you only assign responsibility to God?
It was said by Josephus that Titus actually ascribed a lot of the success of his victory to God.............The Temple fortress [that Herod helped build] must have seemed pretty impregnable.........
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.
 
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Tree of Life

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Based on a reading of Leviticus Chapter 26. God clearly states the good things he will do if the Israelites toe the line and also states what punishments he will impose if they don't. The statements are in the unambiguous form of "I will..."

Whether or not other agents are involved in the process of carrying out God's wishes is immaterial to God being clearly responsible for the outcome.

I'm not a Bible scholar but there appears to be no ambiguity in what Leviticus is saying.
OB

Many times God brings something about simply by removing his protection and allowing wicked nations like the Babylonians to do their worst. It would be misleading to say that God imposed cannibalism on the Israelites.
 
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Occams Barber

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Many times God brings something about simply by removing his protection and allowing wicked nations like the Babylonians to do their worst. It would be misleading to say that God imposed cannibalism on the Israelites.

Sorry ToL - that still leaves you with the repeated "I will" statements to explain. God is not just threatening indifference.

Even if God had simply removed his protection, there is little moral difference between causing bad things to happen and intentionally allowing them to happen and, if you read Leviticus, God's range of punishments involves a lot more than just cannibalism.
OB
 
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Tree of Life

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Sorry ToL - that still leaves you with the repeated "I will" statements to explain. God is not just threatening indifference.

Even if God had simply removed his protection, there is little moral difference between causing bad things to happen and intentionally allowing them to happen and, if you read Leviticus, God's range of punishments involves a lot more than just cannibalism.
OB

Is God morally obliged to continue to provide food and protection to people who are rebelling against him?
 
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Occams Barber

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Is God morally obliged to continue to provide food and protection to people who are rebelling against him?


God is not a human and has all the powers associated with God, therefore 'rebelling against God' is a meaningless statement. An all powerful God would not need his ego stroked by 'worship'. An all powerful God would be indifferent to rebellion. An altruistic God would not allow children to be eaten.

If God has the same moral values as a modern human then - yes- he is morally obliged to prevent people from starving even if they disagree with his rules.
OB
 
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Tree of Life

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An all powerful God would be indifferent to rebellion.

Where do you get this from?

If God has the same moral values as a modern human
then - yes- he is morally obliged to prevent people from starving even if they disagree with his rules.
OB

That's a big "if". What if God has different moral values than a modern, western, liberal, democratic person? Whose moral judgments would be more authoritative?
 
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Occams Barber

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Where do you get this from?
This takes a Quantum Leap in thinking for a Christian.
If God is omni-everything then he/she/it has no needs or wants or wishes or desires. God has no need of anything - therefore God cannot need or want obedience. He would be indifferent.

That's a big "if". What if God has different moral values than a modern, western, liberal, democratic person? Whose moral judgments would be more authoritative?
The whole premise of the OP was to point out that God appeared to have a set of moral values which are not moral by current standards.

To quote @doubtingmerle :
One cannot imagine a God choosing this as a punishment. How can this be?

I think you just made his point - and I'd be willing to bet that, given the choice, you would feed the masses rather than see them 'eat the flesh of their sons and daughters".
OB
 
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Tree of Life

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This takes a Quantum Leap in thinking for a Christian.
If God is omni-everything then he/she/it has no needs or wants or wishes or desires. God has no need of anything - therefore God cannot need or want obedience. He would be indifferent.

You are saying that if God has no needs then he has no desires. Could you demonstrate that this syllogism is true?

The whole premise of the OP was to point out that God appeared to have a set of moral values which are not moral by current standards.

That's not saying much. God's morals are different than common morals today. So what?
 
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Occams Barber

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You are saying that if God has no needs then he has no desires. Could you demonstrate that this syllogism is true?
A desire is a need by another name.

I know this concept may be a slippery one to grasp but it's axiomatic.

If God is omni-everything then He, by definition, wants for nothing. If you turn this round and ask yourself "is God less than perfect?" then it may be easier to grasp. If God is perfect then he wants/needs nothing.

The problem is in shaking off the anthropomorphic view you have of God. You'll find that you are automatically endowing Him with human characteristics (wants, desires, anger, jealousy etc.) A God which is omni-everything is not a human.

That's not saying much. God's morals are different than common morals today. So what?

I thought all morality came from God? If you need to choose between a moral behaviour as demonstrated by God and a conflicting version based on today's accepted moral values - how do you choose? Which God specified moralities are reserved for God's exclusive use and which are moral rules for all Christians?

Do you feed the people or leave them to eat the children?
OB
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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According to Leviticus your God imposed this (cannibalism), along with threatening other extreme punishments, for failing to stick with the rules he imposed.

I think Merle's point is that God's punishment is extreme and immoral by our standards. How can you justify His actions?
OB
It was also the Jew's God.
Those rules were imposed on the Hebrew Israelites, not to the heathen unbelieving non-Jews..........
[Christians didn't come along till after Jesus was crucified in the NT]
Act 11:26
And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
One example of disobedience of the OT God can be seen when King Saul of Israel disobeyed God

He was given a command to kill all the Amalekites, everything and everyone that breathed:
=====================
1 Samuel 15:
2This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them.
Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”.................


But he spared King Agag and the choice animals:

9But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves b and lamb

That cost Saul his Kingdom because he spared the King and beasts.

27As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you.
29He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

Samuel ended up having Agag put to death anyway:

32Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.”
Agag came to him in chains. c And he thought, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” 33 But Samuel said,
“As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women.”
And Samuel put Agag to death before the Lord at Gilgal.
==============================
Child cannabalism 70 ad

The Destruction of Jerusalem

.......... The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together,...who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ;......

Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength.
At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city......................
.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover...............................................

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.

In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ................At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes.

Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration.....
==========
Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and they shall be desiring to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Don't really see it as a punishment imposed by God, rather than a consequence of sin. If I tell my son that if he sticks a fork in the power socket he will get shocked, it doesn't mean that I am punishing him with an electric shock thereafter. It is the consequence of the abuse of what is otherwise good by his actions.
 
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Occams Barber

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Don't really see it as a punishment imposed by God, rather than a consequence of sin. If I tell my son that if he sticks a fork in the power socket he will get shocked, it doesn't mean that I am punishing him with an electric shock thereafter. It is the consequence of the abuse of what is otherwise good by his actions.

Going with your father analogy:

1. Leviticus repeatedly uses the phrase “I will…” when detailing God’s list of the punishments he’ll dish out. This is not God just allowing things to happen. “I will” indicates he’s the causative agent – not a passive onlooker. Using your analogy, it’s the equivalent of you saying;

“If you stick the fork in the power socket I will cause you to have an electric shock”

You are the causative agent.​

2. By modern moral standards the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. The crime appears to be non-specific covenant breaking. Using your father analogy it’s the equivalent of you saying;

”Do as you’re told or I will cause you to eat your sister”

If a human did this, would you characterize him as moral?

3. Even if you could argue that the punishment is a result of God simply allowing the consequences to happen as opposed to causing them, there is a problem.

As a father, if you saw your child (or even an adult) reaching for the power point in spite of your warning – would you not stop him?

If you chose not to stop him wouldn’t that be an immoral act?
(remember we’re actually talking about eating children here).

Intentionally failing to prevent something can be as immoral as causing it to happen.​

I find it difficult to see this God as a benevolent moral agent when measured against modern standards of morality.
OB
 
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