Do We Sleeping Until Judgement

greenguzzi

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There are some groups who maintain a belief in soul sleep, but this position is at odds with millennia of apostolic, biblical, Christian teaching.
"...at odds with millennia of apostolic, Christian teaching"
Possibly, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Old doesn't equal correct.

I'd disagree with it being "biblical teaching" though. personally I'd replace that with just one particular type of bible interpretation.

Soul sleep has no basis in Scripture.
Sure there is basis in scripture for soul sleep. Some are even outlined in this very thread. I think you mean that you don't accept those scriptural bases. Which, of course, is fine.
 
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Saint Steven

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"...at odds with millennia of apostolic, Christian teaching"
Possibly, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Old doesn't equal correct.

I'd disagree with it being "biblical teaching" though. personally I'd replace that with just one particular type of bible interpretation.

Sure there is basis in scripture for soul sleep. Some are even outlined in this very thread. I think you mean that you don't accept those scriptural bases. Which, of course, is fine.
Those are some good points.
We need to explore the scriptures that give the basis for a conscious existence in the afterlife. Which stands in contrast to the claims of an unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife. Here are three scriptures that point in that direction.

I especially like to compare the last one below (John 5:24) with Luke 16:26 from the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Humankind stands condemned already, but belief in Christ moves us positionally from the torment the Rich Man was in to the comfort of the "bosom of Abraham", as it is sometimes called.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living,
for to him all are alive.”

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.
Do you believe this?”

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.

Compare.

Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm
has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot,
nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
 
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greenguzzi

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You know, I didn't even realized that you replied to my post until I reopened this thread.

I suppose my defense would be found in places such as Luke 16:19-30; Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:6-9; 2 Corinthians 12:3-4; Philippians 1:23; Ecclesiastes 12:7, etc.
Thanks for the reply. Here are my thoughts if anyone is interested:

Except for Lazarus/rich man and the verse from Ecclesiastes, all of those verses could just as easily be talking about the resurection to life when Christ returns. If the soul is unconscious between death and the final resurection, then from the perspective of the person departing it would seem that they went straight from this life to the resurrected body. Also the assumption that the passage of time in heaven is the same as it is here on Earth is very problematic. So how about this for a thought experiment: Maybe the soul is conscious between death and final resurection, but only spends 0.1 seconds in heaven before Christ returns. That would seem to satisfy both schools of thought.

There is no scriptural need to add the complication of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection; Occam's Razor should probably apply to the interpretation of scripture.

The Ecclesiastes verse is simply saying that the last breath is breathed. But even if it did mean more than this, the above still applies.

As for Lazarus & the rich man, I think the arguments for it being a parable - or something similar - are pretty strong. In the light of there being no other convincing scriptures that back up the idea of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection, the the idea of it being a parable would be the obvious and natural understanding of this scripture.
But even if it's not a parable, it's a pretty strange event. Communication between Hades and heaven? Is that sort of thing recorded anywhere else in the Bible? Maybe Lazarus and the rich man are special cases. Just because they experienced a conscious intermediate state doesn't mean that everyone who has passed from this Earth does. We do know from scripture that there is a precedent for special cases: Enoch and Elijah for example.

Maybe there are other scriptures you know of, but those alone are not convincing of the doctrine of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection.
 
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Saint Steven

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In the light of there being no other convincing scriptures that back up the idea of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection...

Maybe there are other scriptures you know of, but those alone are not convincing of the doctrine of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection.
There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the Bible. Two of them are in Acts chapter two. Here are a few OT references that refer to consciousness in the afterlife.

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

Ezekiel 32:21
From within the realm of the dead the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’
 
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Saint Steven

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So how about this for a thought experiment: Maybe the soul is conscious between death and final resurection, but only spends 0.1 seconds in heaven before Christ returns. That would seem to satisfy both schools of thought.
That's interesting.
One of the thoughts I have heard on this is that what Jesus taught in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus was the way it was at that moment in time, but after His resurrection things changed. The lost still go to Sheol (the Grave, the realm of the dead) but we go to heaven, or a preliminary heaven. Not Sure.

This scripture is most interesting. Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb. Consider what this is saying. The Bible locates the realm of the dead as being deep in the earth. Also two more verses for comparison.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

Ephesians 4:9
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
 
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David_AB

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Thanks for the reply. Here are my thoughts if anyone is interested:

Except for Lazarus/rich man and the verse from Ecclesiastes, all of those verses could just as easily be talking about the resurection to life when Christ returns. If the soul is unconscious between death and the final resurection, then from the perspective of the person departing it would seem that they went straight from this life to the resurrected body. Also the assumption that the passage of time in heaven is the same as it is here on Earth is very problematic. So how about this for a thought experiment: Maybe the soul is conscious between death and final resurection, but only spends 0.1 seconds in heaven before Christ returns. That would seem to satisfy both schools of thought.

There is no scriptural need to add the complication of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection; Occam's Razor should probably apply to the interpretation of scripture.

The Ecclesiastes verse is simply saying that the last breath is breathed. But even if it did mean more than this, the above still applies.

As for Lazarus & the rich man, I think the arguments for it being a parable - or something similar - are pretty strong. In the light of there being no other convincing scriptures that back up the idea of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection, the the idea of it being a parable would be the obvious and natural understanding of this scripture.
But even if it's not a parable, it's a pretty strange event. Communication between Hades and heaven? Is that sort of thing recorded anywhere else in the Bible? Maybe Lazarus and the rich man are special cases. Just because they experienced a conscious intermediate state doesn't mean that everyone who has passed from this Earth does. We do know from scripture that there is a precedent for special cases: Enoch and Elijah for example.

Maybe there are other scriptures you know of, but those alone are not convincing of the doctrine of a conscious intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection.
I understand it to be a parable because it's saying that even if someone came back from the dead (Jesus), people would still not believe.
 
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David_AB

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Sleep is a polite euphemism for death. The body is "asleep" until the resurrection, when it is raised up and glorified.

Soul sleep has no basis in Scripture. Just like in Judaism, Christianity teaches that between death and resurrection there is something like a foretaste of what is to come, an existence apart from the body either among the wicked or among the righteous. What is often popularly referred to as hell and heaven respectively. In Christianity we further state, emphatically, that those who belong to the Lord will be present with Him in this interim, as the Apostle speaks of being away from the body and present with the Lord (the actual words Paul uses here can carry the sense "emigrate" and "immigrate" to emigrate from the body and immigrate to the Lord).

There are some groups who maintain a belief in soul sleep, but this position is at odds with millennia of apostolic, biblical, Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

So in effect those who die and are in hell know that when judgement day comes they will be found guilty and thrown into the lake or fire and brimstone and suffer the second death?

Those in heaven will be given new eternal bodies on the new earth?
 
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Saint Steven

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I understand it to be a parable because it's saying that even if someone came back from the dead (Jesus), people would still not believe.
Does that diminish everything else Jesus is teaching in that passage? What does Jesus declare about the afterlife in that passage?
 
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David_AB

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Does that diminish everything else Jesus is teaching in that passage? What does Jesus declare about the afterlife in that passage?
No and I didn't say it did diminish anything else in that passage.
 
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Saint Steven

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No and I didn't say it did diminish anything else in that passage.
Do you agree with Jesus' description of the afterlife in that passage?
Most people that claim it is a parable also dismiss what Jesus is saying about the afterlife.
 
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So in effect those who die and are in hell know that when judgement day comes they will be found guilty and thrown into the lake or fire and brimstone and suffer the second death?

Those in heaven will be given new eternal bodies on the new earth?

The common Jewish view in Jesus' day was that the place of the dead (She'ol, translated as Hades in Greek) was divided into two parts, the place of the righteous dead (Gan-Eden aka the Garden of Eden, referred to as Paradaisos aka Paradise in Greek) and the place of the wicked dead (Ge-Hinnom aka the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna in Greek). These were, in some sense, like way stations until Judgment and the resurrection of the dead.

In Christianity we typically use the language of "going to heaven" to speak of being present with the Lord between death and resurrection, though Scripture itself never actually uses this language directly, though in the Revelation we do see a vision of the martyrs standing before God's throne. The real point is that we are with the Lord.

To be in the Lord's presence is to experience a foretaste of the glory we shall know in the resurrection when God makes all things new. Gehenna or Hell is a foretaste of, well, not that. St. John of Patmos describes the end of the wicked using the language of brimstone, fire, and as second death--a kind of death beyond death.

I should point out that I don't subscribe to literal views of "Heaven" and "Hell", i.e. that there are actual places, one with pearly gates and one with literal fire; I simply don't think such a view reflects the biblical and historical Christian perspective on these things and is more a product of modern Western imagination.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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David_AB

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Do you agree with Jesus' description of the afterlife in that passage?
Most people that claim it is a parable also dismiss what Jesus is saying about the afterlife.
I'm not following you. What do you mean, do I agree with his description of the afterlife?

Do you mean the description of the afterlife in the parable?
If so, then if it's a parable that may not be a description of what it is like i.e. those in hell can see those that are in heaven.

I do not have any vested interest in either view, soul sleep or an afterlife before the resurrection, hence my original post asking about it.
I have always believed the latter but hearing about soul sleep made me question what the basis for this was.
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm not following you. What do you mean, do I agree with his description of the afterlife?

Do you mean the description of the afterlife in the parable?
If so, then if it's a parable that may not be a description of what it is like i.e. those in hell can see those that are in heaven.

I do not have any vested interest in either view, soul sleep or an afterlife before the resurrection, hence my original post asking about it.
I have always believed the latter but hearing about soul sleep made me question what the basis for this was.
I guess that proves my point.
Those that claim it is a parable also dismiss what Jesus is saying about the afterlife.
Doesn't that make Jesus a false teacher? I'm not accusing you. But why would Jesus tell a story or parable with false information about the afterlife? The very next passage says this.

Luke 17:1-3
Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
 
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David_AB

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I guess that proves my point.
Those that claim it is a parable also dismiss what Jesus is saying about the afterlife.
Doesn't that make Jesus a false teacher? I'm not accusing you. But why would Jesus tell a story or parable with false information about the afterlife? The very next passage says this.

Luke 17:1-3
Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.

Ok, I see where you're coming from now.
There are a few ways to see that story.
If someone sees it as a parable where Jesus is making a point rather than giving factual information, they aren't saying Jesus is a false teacher.
If someone is saying Jesus is giving factual information but He is wrong, then that is accusing Jesus of being a false teacher.

What you're saying is that even if it is a parable, Jesus wouldn't give false information about the afterlife?

I can see that point of view because he does actually name Lazarus rather than say "rich man and a poor man".
 
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Saint Steven

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What you're saying is that even if it is a parable, Jesus wouldn't give false information about the afterlife?

I can see that point of view because he does actually name Lazarus rather than say "rich man and a poor man".
Yes, that's correct. I think the view of the afterlife that Jesus gives is intentional. The story is about two men with two different destinies in the afterlife. The comparisons are quite remarkable.
 
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greenguzzi

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Here are a few OT references that refer to consciousness in the afterlife.
Isaiah 14:9
Clearly poetic language: "The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you..." Assigning emotions to a realm. Realms can really have emotions, therefore this is poetic language. You can't draw a literal conclusion from a poetic writing.
But even if you could, there is this: "...it rouses the spirits of the departed..." You can't rouse someone who is awake and conscious.

Ezekiel 32:21 is a bit more convincing, but it's still poetic in nature. Ezekiel is even more playful in his prophetic language than is Isaiah, so to use this one verse to conclude that the dead are conscious is drawing a long straw. But I'm not going to dismiss it completely just yet. I'm going to put this verse in the "maybe" folder, to keep the the Lazarus story company.

There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the Bible. Two of them are in Acts chapter two.
That is correct:
"...because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay."
So the realm of the dead is that place where one goes to decay. That supports my view pretty solidly.
 
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I think you are missing a step. But I liked your post all the same.
If you mean Hades when you write "Hell", then we agree.
There will be a final judgement where the lost are thrown into Hell. (the Lake of Fire)
And hopefully by "the grave" you mean Sheol. (the realm of the dead)


Our bodies are in the ground/grave when we die...then he calls us all up when he returns
 
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greenguzzi

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This scripture is most interesting. Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb. Consider what this is saying. The Bible locates the realm of the dead as being deep in the earth. Also two more verses for comparison.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

Ephesians 4:9
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
"Sheol", "the grave", "lower regions of the earth", "heart of the land", these are all synonyms (or euphemisms?) for that place we go when we die. I think I would use the "grave" if I wanted to give the same sense in modern English. So I don't think that really adds anything either way to the discussion.

However 1 Peter 3:19 is possibly the most convincing Biblical quote to support your argument. But I'm still not convinced by it yet. It's too complex to explain why at the moment. So I'll just say two things about it for now:
The word "spirit" (pneuma) is ambiguous, it may not mean the souls of the dead.
According to Luke 23:43, Jesus went to paradise after He died.
 
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Der Alte

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<VC>The common Jewish view in Jesus' day was that the place of the dead (She'ol, translated as Hades in Greek) was divided into two parts, the place of the righteous dead (Gan-Eden aka the Garden of Eden, referred to as Paradaisos aka Paradise in Greek) and the place of the wicked dead (Ge-Hinnom aka the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna in Greek). These were, in some sense, like way stations until Judgment and the resurrection of the dead.In Chris
tianity we typically use the language of "going to heaven" to speak of being present with the Lord between death and resurrection, though Scripture itself never actually uses this language directly, though in the Revelation we do see a vision of the martyrs standing before God's throne. The real point is that we are with the Lord.
To be in the Lord's presence is to experience a foretaste of the glory we shall know in the resurrection when God makes all things new. Gehenna or Hell is a foretaste of, well, not that. St. John of Patmos describes the end of the wicked using the language of brimstone, fire, and as second death--a kind of death beyond death.
I should point out that I don't subscribe to literal views of "Heaven" and "Hell", i.e. that there are actual places, one with pearly gates and one with literal fire; I simply don't think such a view reflects the biblical and historical Christian perspective on these things and is more a product of modern Western imagination.

-CryptoLutheran<VC>
I'm not sure that was the "common view."
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.;). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.
 
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Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
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Our bodies are in the ground/grave when we die...then he calls us all up when he returns
Yes, but where is your soul and spirit? Absent from the body and present with the Lord.
 
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