(Matthew 24:29-31) Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

interpreter · Dec 6, 2012

There is no rapture because Jesus never mentioned one. It is a figment of Paul's imagination

LastSeven · Dec 6, 2012

Choose Wisely said:
Then I would suggest that you learn the parable of the fig tree

What does the parable of the fig tree have to do with this?

I said God has made Jew and gentile into one single nation, so he will not have two separate plans for us since he considers us one.

Then you said the wheat and the barley are harvested separately to which I replied wheat and barley have not been joined together. Jews and gentiles are not wheat and barley, so your wheat and barley example does not fit.

Is the parable of the fig tree supposed to convince me that Jew and gentile are still separate, even though we have clear scripture that says God has made us one? Please explain.

Manasseh_ · Dec 6, 2012

Choose Wisely said:
Manasseh_ said:

And the sweet part is that all of your arguments are like dust in the wind when both pre trib and pre wrath raptures are mentioned.

Click to expand...

isn't it odd that you can only dispel the argument by calling it dust in the wind but can't dispel the content of the arguments presented, typical and generic pretrib response , can't dispel the content so attempt to direct attention to the argument itself and give it a derogatory name in order to give in no value to begin with, what's even more sad is that pretribbers actually have deceived themselves into believing they are giving valid explanations and "proof" of this false pretrib premise by using such weak and transparent methods

if either is mentioned as you claim then present one explicit verse(s) that promises Christ will return before tribulation to gather his saints ? just ONE

Choose Wisely · Dec 6, 2012

Manasseh_ said:
Choose Wisely said:

isn't it odd that you can only dispel the argument by calling it dust in the wind but can't dispel the content of the arguments presented, typical and generic pretrib response , can't dispel the content so attempt to direct attention to the argument itself and give it a derogatory name in order to give in no value to begin with, what's even more sad is that pretribbers actually have deceived themselves into believing they are giving valid explanations and "proof" of this false pretrib premise by using such weak and transparent methods

if either is mentioned as you claim then present one explicit verse(s) that promises Christ will return before tribulation to gather his saints ? just ONE

Click to expand...

LOL, the real problem is that you can't find one verse that says he is not coming before the tribulation. And when you apply the truth of two raptures all the arguments that you were so sure of are just "DUST IN THE WIND".

I suggest that you pay carefull attention to the following verse before the ark doors are closed as Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Manasseh_ · Dec 14, 2012

Choose Wisely said:
LOL, the real problem is that you can't find one verse that says he is not coming before the tribulation. And when you apply the truth of two raptures all the arguments that you were so sure of are just "DUST IN THE WIND".

there's a simple reason you can't find any such verses because Christ and his apostles never taught that he would come before tribulation, it's not my problem, it's pretribbers problem.........you do not have one verse in the all the word of God that expressly and explicitly states that Christ will return before tribulation to gather his saints this whole false doctrine is based on assumption................PLUS there are a number of verses that do explicitly state the opposite which disagree with the pretrib false doctrine

this lie of satan is dust in the wind
this false empty hope will be dust in the wind when it does not occur and many will realize they have been lied to, deceived.........simply because you didn't want to believe the simple truth of what Christ himself foretold and promised...........he's the one that stated that he will not return until after tribulation and you're just one of millions who refuse to believe what he said

Messy · Dec 15, 2012

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 8, 2013

Douggg said:
Second coming for certain. Don't see any resurrection in the text, to go along with the gathering (which some believe to be a reference to the rapture).

Doug

Good observation, but you'll find the missing resurrection in this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7711359/

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 21, 2013

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
I dont think you can take one passage in isolation, but you need to take the whole lot and compare with each other, as the gospel of Matthew wasnt written by Jesus, but is a collection of recollections about Jesus. You have to take everything from the various gospels, and try to figure it out. I think there is a rapture, because of the various passages which record Jesus saying on one taken and one left behind. Its just too confusing to take one passage in isolation, and then decide out from that. The quote:

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Is probably taken from the OT, and edited in by the writer of Matthew, as he composed his gospel from a whole gamut of sources.

At the moment I think there will be a rapture event, probably pre-tribulation, but not for any specific 7 years, or whatever, derived out from Daniel, but shortly thereafter the earth is judged by fire; possibly all at the same time, or close to each other, the rapture, then the judgement. I dont believe in any 1000 years earthly kingdom, which is not possible if you take the bible as containing truth, as a whole. Belief in a literal millennium is a new-fangled idea, it was never accepted by the bulk of believers throughout the Christian age.

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

Matthew Henry (late 1600s - early 1700s believed in a literal 1000 years. You'd see that if you read his commentary on Revelation.

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

interpreter said:
These verses pertain to the second coming which was on Oct. 28th, 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantinr who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
There was no rapture. Instead, Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

If so - when did armies get struck with 75 lb hailstones? When did the mount of olives split in to with water coming out both east and west? When did 1/3 of all trees burn up? When did a 200 million man army cross the Euphrates? I could go on but read Revelation again and ask yourself when all of that happened.

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
The notion of "the rapture" doesn't really fit into what I believe, primarily because of the way it has been used since the 19th century.

The Parousia does mean the resurrection of the dead though, yes. It's what St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15, Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection, and then those who are His at His coming. What the Apostle says in 1 Thessalonians 4 is that those who are alive at the Parousia will participate in the one resurrection event, to meet the triumphant and returning Lord Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

According to Strong's concordance parousia means
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

Seems like parousia means the second coming.

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

rollinTHUNDER said:
Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pastor Present · Jan 26, 2019

The following is what Chuck Smith has said at the Bluelettergible about the trumpet in verse 31:

Now immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened (Mat 24:29);

This will be the final aspect of the tribulation, the great cataclysmic signs in the heavens. The son darkened, the moon will not give her light, the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall appear (Mat 24:29-30)

When? Immediately after the tribulations of those days, then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Mat 24:30).

It says, "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." All of the tribes of the earth. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:31).

Now those who take the post-tribulation theory, that Jesus is not going to take the church out until after the Great Tribulation, use this as one of their chief verses to defend their position. For He shall then, after He returns, after the Great Tribulation, He will then send His angels with the sound of a trumpet. The trumpet of God shall sound, "and they shall gather together, His elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other."

Now one thing that they always disregard is that the Bible speaks of that trump by which the church will be caught up to glory, as the trump of God always shall sound; whereas, they confuse that with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, because the trump of God is called the last trump. And so they say, the seventh trump is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. But again in the book of Revelation there, the trumpets of the seven angels, and the seven angels prepared to sound their seven trumpets. And there is a vast difference between the seventh trumpet (the trumpet of an angel), which is declared to be a woe, and that trump of God whereby the church should be called to her reward.

Now this particular verse is one of those compilations where Jesus put together three verses out of the Old Testament; whereby, God has promised that when the return of Christ takes place, and the kingdom is established, that God is again going to take back the Jews as His people, as a nation, and He is going to bring them back in the land, and honor them once more.

And in Deuteronomy chapter thirty, three and four, in that particular promise as the Lord is talking about returning them from their captivity, He said, "and if any of you are driven out to the uttermost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there He will fetch you. Notice He will gather together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, but that heaven if you be scattered, He will gather you from there. Deuteronomy 30:4.

In Isaiah 27:12-13, there the Lord said, again as He is predicting the regathering of the people "oh ye children of Israel", the end of verse 12, "it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish, in the land of Assyria, the outcast from the land of Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem."

And so the trumpet, the great trumpet sounding, Jesus makes reference to that.

And then once more in Isaiah 11:12. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is not at all damaging to the scripture, but only in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the ELECT JEWS, NOT THE CHURCH.

ViaCrucis · Jan 26, 2019

Pastor Present said:
According to Strong's concordance parousia means
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

Seems like parousia means the second coming.

Correct.

-CryptoLutheran

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 27, 2019

rollinTHUNDER said:
Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Great thread!

I put Matthew, Mark and Luke's discourse together to see what we can see.......

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

One interesting thing I notice here, is that the word "tribulation<2347>" does not appear in Luke's entire Gospel........

2347. thlipsis from 2346;
pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
G2347 θλῖψις (thlipsis), occurs 45 times in 43 verses

Matthew 24:29
‘And immediately after the tribulation<2347> of those days, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from the heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>
Mark 13:
24 ‘But in those days, after the tribulation<2347>, that the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of the heaven shall be falling,
and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken
[Tribulation <2347> 5 times in Reve:
Revelation 1:9, Revelation 2:9-22 Revelation 7:14]

John 16:33
“These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation<2347>;
but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Luke 21:
25 ‘And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars,
and on the land [is] distress of nations with perplexity, sea and waves roaring;
26 men fainting at heart from fear, and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited-land<3625>,
for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken<4531>.
========================================
Matthew 24:30
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast,
and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
Mark 13:26
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory;

Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?
====================================
Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
Mark 13:27
and then he shall send his messengers, and gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the end of the earth unto the end of heaven.
=====
Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four messengers standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land,
that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree;
Revelation 20:8
and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the land -- Gog and Magog --
to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;
======
Ezekiel 37:9
And He saith unto me: 'Prophesy unto the Spirit, prophesy, son of man, and thou hast said unto the Spirit: Thus said the Lord Jehovah:
From the four winds come in, O Spirit, and breathe on these slain, and they do live.'

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 27, 2019

wordsoflife said:
It is both the second coming and the rapture. It is the same event as is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Where would that be showing in Revelation?

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 27, 2019

Pastor Present said:
According to Strong's concordance parousia means
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

Seems like parousia means the second coming.

ViaCrucis said:
Correct.

-CryptoLutheran

I got really interested in that word back in about 2006 and created a thread on it......
[I suppose it got closed because of inactivity, loss of interest.........]

What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament
May 17, 2007
==============================
My current studies:

3 different forms of #3952 used in the NT:

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times.
Matthew 24:3;
Philippians 1:26;
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8;
James 5:7
2 Peter 3:4

Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times.
Matthew 24:27-37- 39;
1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Corinthians 16:17;
2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 2 Corinthians 10:10;
Philippians 2:12;
1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 5:23;
2 Thessalonians 2:9;
James 5:8,
1 John 2:28

parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times
1 Thessalonians 4:15;
2 Peter 1:16;
2 Peter 3:12

I currently have 4 threads on that topic for those interested:

https://www.christianforums.com/search/36496611/

"PAROUSIA" IN THE "MT OF OLIVES" TEMPLE/JERUSALEM DISCOURSE
January 15, 2019 • 23 posts • 647 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
#1 - LittleLambofJesus
Why did Jesus use the word "Parousia" only in Matthew 24 of the Gospels? Matthew 24: 3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the ...
13 results in this thread
Is the "parousia" showing in Luke 21?
December 12, 2018 • 27 posts • 449 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
#1 - LittleLambofJesus
Luke 21:28 is rather unique and is part of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus tells them that at the beginning of these events, they are to lift up their heads because their redemption is nigh. What is it redemption from? Luke 21 23 But woe to ...
9 results in this thread
The "PAROUSIA" in Matthew 24
August 05, 2018 • 16 posts • 692 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
#1 - LittleLambofJesus
I would like to discuss the "parousia" of Matt 24 and how it is used in the rest of the NT. First thing to notice is that Matt 24 is the only chapter out of the 4 Gospels to use the word "parousia". 3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah ...
12 results in this thread
Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?
January 10, 2010 • 97 posts • 3596 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

(Matthew 24:29-31) Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

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