There is no rapture because Jesus never mentioned one. It is a figment of Paul's imagination
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Then I would suggest that you learn the parable of the fig tree
And the sweet part is that all of your arguments are like dust in the wind when both pre trib and pre wrath raptures are mentioned.
isn't it odd that you can only dispel the argument by calling it dust in the wind but can't dispel the content of the arguments presented, typical and generic pretrib response , can't dispel the content so attempt to direct attention to the argument itself and give it a derogatory name in order to give in no value to begin with, what's even more sad is that pretribbers actually have deceived themselves into believing they are giving valid explanations and "proof" of this false pretrib premise by using such weak and transparent methods
if either is mentioned as you claim then present one explicit verse(s) that promises Christ will return before tribulation to gather his saints ? just ONE
isn't it odd that you can only dispel the argument by calling it dust in the wind but can't dispel the content of the arguments presented, typical and generic pretrib response , can't dispel the content so attempt to direct attention to the argument itself and give it a derogatory name in order to give in no value to begin with, what's even more sad is that pretribbers actually have deceived themselves into believing they are giving valid explanations and "proof" of this false pretrib premise by using such weak and transparent methods
if either is mentioned as you claim then present one explicit verse(s) that promises Christ will return before tribulation to gather his saints ? just ONE
LOL, the real problem is that you can't find one verse that says he is not coming before the tribulation. And when you apply the truth of two raptures all the arguments that you were so sure of are just "DUST IN THE WIND".
I suggest that you pay carefull attention to the following verse before the ark doors are closed as Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.
Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
LOL, the real problem is that you can't find one verse that says he is not coming before the tribulation. And when you apply the truth of two raptures all the arguments that you were so sure of are just "DUST IN THE WIND".
Good observation, but you'll find the missing resurrection in this thread:Second coming for certain. Don't see any resurrection in the text, to go along with the gathering (which some believe to be a reference to the rapture).
Doug
I dont think you can take one passage in isolation, but you need to take the whole lot and compare with each other, as the gospel of Matthew wasnt written by Jesus, but is a collection of recollections about Jesus. You have to take everything from the various gospels, and try to figure it out. I think there is a rapture, because of the various passages which record Jesus saying on one taken and one left behind. Its just too confusing to take one passage in isolation, and then decide out from that. The quote:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Is probably taken from the OT, and edited in by the writer of Matthew, as he composed his gospel from a whole gamut of sources.
At the moment I think there will be a rapture event, probably pre-tribulation, but not for any specific 7 years, or whatever, derived out from Daniel, but shortly thereafter the earth is judged by fire; possibly all at the same time, or close to each other, the rapture, then the judgement. I dont believe in any 1000 years earthly kingdom, which is not possible if you take the bible as containing truth, as a whole. Belief in a literal millennium is a new-fangled idea, it was never accepted by the bulk of believers throughout the Christian age.
These verses pertain to the second coming which was on Oct. 28th, 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantinr who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
There was no rapture. Instead, Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.
The notion of "the rapture" doesn't really fit into what I believe, primarily because of the way it has been used since the 19th century.
The Parousia does mean the resurrection of the dead though, yes. It's what St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15, Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection, and then those who are His at His coming. What the Apostle says in 1 Thessalonians 4 is that those who are alive at the Parousia will participate in the one resurrection event, to meet the triumphant and returning Lord Jesus.
-CryptoLutheran
Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
According to Strong's concordance parousia means
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
Seems like parousia means the second coming.
Great thread!Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 21:John 16:33
“These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation<2347>;
but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Where would that be showing in Revelation?It is both the second coming and the rapture. It is the same event as is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
According to Strong's concordance parousia means
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
Seems like parousia means the second coming.
I got really interested in that word back in about 2006 and created a thread on it......Correct.
-CryptoLutheran