Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

setst777 said:

Understanding and wisdom of the Holy Scriptures.

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Concerning what ? (from sequence of posts, in this thread, why ? )

Yarddog said:

Are you a semi-pelagianist?

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I believe in original sin since the fall. The person without Christ is a slave to sin, but now has the knowledge of Good and Evil since the fall, having also a conscience that condemns or honors choices we make.

Romans 2:15 (NIV)
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Sinful man is able to make choices whether for good or evil, even though a slave to fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

Isaiah 1:18-21 (KJV)
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Acts 18:4 (NIV)
4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Because we are slaves to our sinful natures, we cannot obey the Law of God. However, that does not mean that a person who is a prisoner to sin cannot cry out to the One who can save them from sin and death after hearing the Gospel invitation and feel the convicting power of the Spirit.

Luke 18:13-15 (NIV)
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

A proud person will reject the Gospel and will resist the drawing of the Spirit by their own choice:

Acts 7:51 (NIV)
51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Ezekiel 3:7 (WEB) (God speaking)
7 But the house of Israel will not listen to you; for they will not listen to me: for all the house of Israel are obstinate and hard-hearted.

A humble person, even though a sinner, will receive the Gospel invitation with gladness, not resisting the drawing of the Spirit.

Psalms 25:9 (WEB) Bolding mine… 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Psalms 18:27 (NIV) Bolding mine… 27 You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Psalms 147:6 (WEB) 6 Yahweh upholds the humble. He brings the wicked down to the ground.

That is why God the Father sent Jesus to preach the Gospel to the Humble:

Isaiah 61:1-2 (Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor

setst777 said:

I believe in original sin since the fall. The person without Christ is a slave to sin, but now has the knowledge of Good and Evil since the fall, having also a conscience that condemns or honors choices we make.

Romans 2:15 (NIV)
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Sinful man is able to make choices whether for good or evil, even though a slave to fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

Isaiah 1:18-21 (KJV)
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Acts 18:4 (NIV)
4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Because we are slaves to our sinful natures, we cannot obey the Law of God. However, that does not mean that a person who is a prisoner to sin cannot cry out to the One who can save them from sin and death after hearing the Gospel invitation and feel the convicting power of the Spirit.

Luke 18:13-15 (NIV)
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

A proud person will reject the Gospel and will resist the drawing of the Spirit by their own choice:

Acts 7:51 (NIV)
51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Ezekiel 3:7 (WEB) (God speaking)
7 But the house of Israel will not listen to you; for they will not listen to me: for all the house of Israel are obstinate and hard-hearted.

A humble person, even though a sinner, will receive the Gospel invitation with gladness, not resisting the drawing of the Spirit.

Psalms 25:9 (WEB) Bolding mine… 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Psalms 18:27 (NIV) Bolding mine… 27 You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Psalms 147:6 (WEB) 6 Yahweh upholds the humble. He brings the wicked down to the ground.

That is why God the Father sent Jesus to preach the Gospel to the Humble:

Isaiah 61:1-2 (Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor

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The Jews had knowledge of the fall but what Gentiles knew of this when the Apostles set out evangelizing the world.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Concerning what ? (from sequence of posts, in this thread, why ? )

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This need not concern you. You quoted something that was meant for Yarddog.

Yarddog said:

The Jews had knowledge of the fall but what Gentiles knew of this when the Apostles set out evangelizing the world.

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You asked me if I was a semi-plagiarist, and I answered you. Now you know. Why wouldn't the Gentiles know about it if the Apostles preached it to the Gentiles?

And now you know that I am not a semi-plagiarist. Rather, I am a follower of Christ and His words.

setst777 said:

You asked me if I was a semi-plagiarist, and I answered you.

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Well, you did not say yes or no, but since you said "... after hearing the Gospel invitation and feel the convicting power of the Spirit." the answer appears to be no but why did you question what I said?

Now you know. Why wouldn't the Gentiles know about it if the Apostles preached it to the Gentiles?

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How many verses show the Apostles preaching the fall to the Gentiles? The Jews knew of the Torah but only a few Gentiles would. Paul preached salvation through Jesus Christ but rarely mentioned Adam and Eve

setst777 said:

Rather, I am a follower of Christ and His words.

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As am I, through the grace of God. Guided by His Holy Spirit to do those works which he leads me in.

God Bless

setst777 said:

Thanks for your reply.

Book of Hebrews
True, especially in later times, there was dispute over certain books. However, the Book of Hebrews was included among the authoritative Apostolic letters of the Church as early as the late 2nd century, being included among Paul's letters.

Gospels such as those of “Thomas” and “Judas”
The Gospel of Thomas was never recognized by the early Church as authentic, and was not in any of their authentic collections, only in collections of fictitious writings. As well, the Gospel of Thomas clearly appears to be of Gnostic origin.

The Gospel of Judas is another clearly gnostic book that the earliest church fathers considered fictitious and never included in any of their authentic collections of Scripture.

Woman Caught in Adultery
This is an issue that has to do with manuscript evidence. The manuscript evidence shows that the earliest quality manuscripts of the Gospel of John do not include that incident. Even so, this story does not in any way affect the doctrines of the Christian Scriptures.

Regarding other Letters of the New Testament, such as 2nd Peter, we have to remember that, within the 1st and 2nd centuries, not all the Epistles to the Churches were shared at the same time, and some were kept locally. Only later were collections put together of the authentic letters.

Old Testament Canon is not confirmed
While you may believe the Old Testament Canon, thousands of years after the fact, is not confirmed, that does not mean it is true. Josephus, a credible Jewish historian that lived during and after the time of Christ certainly considered the Jewish Canon closed long ago, and even listed the books - although the format was different in that some books were doubled up into one.

In addition, regarding the Book of Daniel, Lord Jesus quoted from, and referred to, the Book of Daniel (Matthew 24:15–16), as well as other OT books. That is good enough for me to demonstrate the authority of that Book.

I am sorry you have such a dim outlook of the Holy Scriptures. I also think you are misguided in your judgment of the Scriptures based on Church history and tradition.

Blessings

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Thank you, and I appreciate your response and the facts you have added to the discussion. While I accept your statements regarding the above books, I was simply pointing out something you actually supported: the Church was instrumental in deeming certain books heretical, non-inspired, or in verifying genuine authorship.
Thank you for bringing in Josephus, an excellent historian. I also respect his name, and thus the fact you associated with it.
I’m terribly sorry if you misunderstood my view of sacred scripture to be pessimistic. I’m simply pointing out that, without Christ’s Church, there would be no Bible. Even the ancient Jews couldn’t determine an official canon. The Sadducees only acknowledged the Torah, while the Pharisees acknowledged the books of poetry, the historical, and all of the prophetic books as more than apophrica.
Without divine guidance, we’d have random Christian sects adding and removing whatever they wanted to sacred scripture. Why isn’t the Shepherd of Hermas in the Bible? Or the Didache? What about the story of Lilith? Or Enoch? At that point, why not the works of the Buddha? Obviously some of these are very drastic examples, but I’m simply trying to make a point.
But, after all, again, thank you for your response and God bless.

Thomas Cooper said:

Thank you, and I appreciate your response and the facts you have added to the discussion. While I accept your statements regarding the above books, I was simply pointing out something you actually supported: the Church was instrumental in deeming certain books heretical, non-inspired, or in verifying genuine authorship.
Thank you for bringing in Josephus, an excellent historian. I also respect his name, and thus the fact you associated with it.
I’m terribly sorry if you misunderstood my view of sacred scripture to be pessimistic. I’m simply pointing out that, without Christ’s Church, there would be no Bible. Even the ancient Jews couldn’t determine an official canon. The Sadducees only acknowledged the Torah, while the Pharisees acknowledged the books of poetry, the historical, and all of the prophetic books as more than apophrica.
Without divine guidance, we’d have random Christian sects adding and removing whatever they wanted to sacred scripture. Why isn’t the Shepherd of Hermas in the Bible? Or the Didache? What about the story of Lilith? Or Enoch? At that point, why not the works of the Buddha? Obviously some of these are very drastic examples, but I’m simply trying to make a point.
But, after all, again, thank you for your response and God bless.

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Yes, God works wonderfully and wisely to preserve His Word. God left us with excellent church leaders that continued the work of Christ, and then the Apostles, to proclaim the Gospel, defend the Rule of Faith against heresy, and to preserve those founding inspired documents - the Gospels and the Epistles.

While God uses the Church (universal) as an instrument to preserve His word, it does not follow that Church leaders should also be given unchecked authority to interpret Scripture that we should blindly accept. Even in the 1st century Church under the Apostles, church leaders were already beginning to corrupt the message, of which the Apostles had to correct a number of times.

Even among 2nd century Church Fathers, we see some discrepancy in interpretation of the Scriptures, although the core doctrines (the Rule of Faith) remained universal. But the fight against heretics remained strong against many apposing "christian" groups.

And in later centuries we see Leaders within the Church overstepping Scripture, giving interpretations that constitute a corruption of the actual doctrine clearly explained in writing by Christ and the Apostles.

Therefore, we must be careful, and do as the Bareans did - to test what any so called leader states against Scripture itself.

Thomas Cooper said:

Hello, and thank you for responding to my post. I’d like to address your response.
First of all, thank you for pointing out more facts about Luther, but I think you misunderstood my comment. While Luther did teach scripture, and while there are records of him doing it well, sacred scripture consists of over 70 books and Luther didn’t have a knowledge of all of them, rather, professors would be more specialized on subjects.

Thank you also for bringing in sources outside of sacred scripture such as the writings of St. Chrysostom and Pope Saint Clement (who was acknowledged as pope not just by the Roman diocese but by the Ephesian diocese where Saint John the Apostle lived).
You are, however, taking St. Chrysostom’s words “faith alone” out of context here. I agree with his quotation, but you seem to misunderstand it. He was simply reaffirming that through faith, we respond to the grace of the Holy Spirit. He never says that by that singular response we are saved.

As for Pope Saint Clement’s words, they too are true, but you again misunderstand his commentary. Like St. Paul, He is addressing the the salvation of the Jews as opposed to the salvation of the gentiles. While the Jews were pious in their works of the law, without faith in Christ. The patriarchs had to have faith in their God in order to be with Him. He tells the gentile Christians that, while they do not follow the Mosaic Law, their faith saves them. He doesn’t say that works don’t save; he simply says that works alone don’t save.

Lastly, your commentary on James 2, while some of it I see to hold true, most of it seems a bit faulty, wrongly asserted to emphasize certain points over others, and misunderstood. While you’re right that James points out the hypocrisy of those who falsely claim to have faith. However, in between the lines you chose to highlight, he accuses his fellow Christians (who clearly have faith) that they cannot simply abandon their starving neighbors. The rest of the passage cannot in anyway be interpreted to suggest that faith without works saves. You are right in your examination that James does not contradict Paul. that faith, as Paul uses it, implies works because our faith, as Christ gives, is infused with good works.

If you see my original post, I mentioned Ephesians 2:8-10. This passage makes it clear that by faith we are saved by God’s free gift of grace. We accept this gift with our response of faith. Our faith must be active though, we must manifest it though our actions.

Notice that while I discussed Luther’s scandalous actions, I only held his theological crimes against him, not his secular, to make my point. A bishop’s sins do not take away the facts he presented.

Bishop Eusebius Pamphillius of Cæsaria also pledged his allegiance to Christ’s Apostolic Church and held her teachings to be infallible.

I hope that I could help further broaden the knowledge and awareness of this discussion with my above responses. And thank you for your response and additions to my original post.

Happy if I could help in anyway.

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Hello brother Thomas I enjoyed reading your post and I would like to share my thoughts on James 2 to get your opinion on the subject. Personally I think many people don’t realize that James is talking about two different types of faith in James 2:14-26. He mentions a saving faith that produces or results in works and a dead and useless or barren faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. I ask myself what is the root cause of good works? I think so many people who are reading James are not contemplating this question. Good works are the result of love for others. The Holy Spirit puts this kind of love and compassion in our new heart. Oh praise God for lighting our way!! Those who are not doing good works are not loving others. They are not abiding in Christ’s love. I believe this is exactly what separated the sheep from the goats. Jesus said they were condemned because they didn’t do good works but I believe the root cause was they didn’t do good works because they didn’t love others. When we love others we are pleased to show it in our actions as well as our words. In John 15 right after the parable of the vinedresser He continues His message saying this

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The parable of the vinedresser is all about abiding in Christ’s love and producing fruit. We see a parallel message in 1 John 3

“We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16-24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What are your thoughts?

Thomas Cooper said:

Hello, and thank you for responding to my post. I’d like to address your response.
First of all, thank you for pointing out more facts about Luther, but I think you misunderstood my comment. While Luther did teach scripture, and while there are records of him doing it well, sacred scripture consists of over 70 books and Luther didn’t have a knowledge of all of them, rather, professors would be more specialized on subjects.

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Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I still see issues with what you have written in response. First, I would point out that unlike most of his contemporaries Luther actually possessed a Bible. As in it was his. Bibles were not something one possessed rather a school or a library owned it. Second, Luther graduated with a degree in biblical studies in 1508 and taught scripture for a decade and more. Thirdly, being part of a monastic order if nothing else one would be surrounded by scripture from performing the daily office (breviary) read and chanted in a language he really could understand. (Actually I have an old monastic breviary on my shelf, pre VII and pre Pious X reform). Lastly, and most important the man translated the NT by 1522 and the OT by 1534 so if he wasn't familiar with text from all his experience before he certainly would have been familiar with scripture by the time he was finished. And if it was his ignorance that caused him to "invent" is doctrine surley by the time his OT came out (with the apocrypha I might add) he would have seen one of these "contradictions". But alas he did not nor did the Lutheran theologians of the Lutheran Orthodoxy period. So whatever issue one has with Luther's doctrine it was not a result of any ignorance of scripture.

Thomas Cooper said:

Thank you also for bringing in sources outside of sacred scripture such as the writings of St. Chrysostom and Pope Saint Clement (who was acknowledged as pope not just by the Roman diocese but by the Ephesian diocese where Saint John the Apostle lived).

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This statement is problematic because virtually everything stated is anachronistic. First, Clement is not referred to as "pope" this early (or any bishop of Rome for that matter). Second, there were no dioceses in existence at this time since Clement lived approximately 150 years before the Roman empire was reorganized into dioceses. In other words I am not sure why this is even mentioned since the even I believe you are referring to doesn't occur for another 300 plus years ( the politicking between Constantinople and Ephesus ca 431 AD).

Thomas Cooper said:

You are, however, taking St. Chrysostom’s words “faith alone” out of context here. I agree with his quotation, but you seem to misunderstand it. He was simply reaffirming that through faith, we respond to the grace of the Holy Spirit. He never says that by that singular response we are saved.

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I noticed you inserted your definition of "Grace" into the text. You will also notice that it isn't present in the text. So lets put it in a greater context.

Acts 15:8-11 The council of Jerusalem (ESV)
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

John Chrysostom writes:
Observe how he shows that it was God speaking by him, and no human utterance. “And God, that knoweth the hearts, gave testimony unto them:” he refers them to the spiritual testimony: “by giving them the Holy Ghost even as unto us.” (v. 8.) Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. “And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.” (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision. For indeed they do not say all this only by way of apology for the Gentiles, but to teach (the Jewish believers) also to abandon the Law. However, at present this is not said. “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples?” (v. 10.) What means, “Tempt ye God?” As if He had not power to save by faith. Consequently, it proceeds from a want of faith, this bringing in the Law. Then he shows that they themselves were nothing benefited by it, and he turns the whole (stress of his speech) against the Law, not against them, and (so) cuts short the accusation of them: “which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus we shall be saved, even as they.” (v. 11.) How full of power these words! The same that Paul says at large in the Epistle to the Romans, the same says Peter here. “For if Abraham,” says (Paul), “was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.” (Rom. 4:2.) Do you perceive that all this is more a lesson for them than apology for the Gentiles? However, if he had spoken this without a plea for speaking, he would have been suspected: an occasion having offered, he lays hold of it, and speaks out fearlessly. See on all occasions how the designs of their foes are made to work with them. If those had not stirred the question, these things would not have been spoken, nor what follows.

John Chrysostom. (1889). Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Acts of the Apostles. In P. Schaff (Ed.), J. Walker, J. Sheppard, H. Browne, & G. B. Stevens (Trans.), Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans (Vol. 11, pp. 201–202). New York: Christian Literature Company.

As you can see I didn't misunderstand anything Chrysostom in the least bit. The fuller context actually affirms my position (Sola Fide). The problem you are having is that as a modern Roman Catholic you have to make the early church fathers sound like modern Roman Catholics when they are not. I can literally fill page upon page of early church fathers that agree with the doctrine of Sola Fide. Of course they say things that I do not agree with and neither would you but what I can do that you cannot is allow the ECF to speak for themselves without an artificial interpretive lens.

Thomas Cooper said:

As for Pope Saint Clement’s words, they too are true, but you again misunderstand his commentary. Like St. Paul, He is addressing the the salvation of the Jews as opposed to the salvation of the gentiles. While the Jews were pious in their works of the law, without faith in Christ. The patriarchs had to have faith in their God in order to be with Him. He tells the gentile Christians that, while they do not follow the Mosaic Law, their faith saves them. He doesn’t say that works don’t save; he simply says that works alone don’t save.

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Again you are inserting things into the text that simply are not present. I do apologize, I did not mean to use the above quote rather the one I will include below because it it clearly from I Clement chapter 32 and is not a commentary:
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”15 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Clement of Rome. (1885). The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 13). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

Athanasius377 said:

And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Clement of Rome. (1885). The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 13). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

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John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus of Nazareth, just shy of 1AD

Thomas Cooper said:

Lastly, your commentary on James 2, while some of it I see to hold true, most of it seems a bit faulty, wrongly asserted to emphasize certain points over others, and misunderstood. While you’re right that James points out the hypocrisy of those who falsely claim to have faith. However, in between the lines you chose to highlight, he accuses his fellow Christians (who clearly have faith) that they cannot simply abandon their starving neighbors. The rest of the passage cannot in anyway be interpreted to suggest that faith without works saves. You are right in your examination that James does not contradict Paul. that faith, as Paul uses it, implies works because our faith, as Christ gives, is infused with good works.

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A couple of issue here. First, it is not evidenced that faith those whom James is writing against have any saving faith. Consider, the second question in v 14 expects a negative answer due to the particle (μὴ) present in the Greek. So right out of the gate another question must be answered. Namely, are there two kinds of faith or is there something else going on. I would argue the latter. Faith cannot be seen rather one can only see the fruits of faith in works of mercy. Compare with Matt 7:15–20 (ESV)
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

The way someone is shown to have faith is by their works. Keep in mind those with said faith normally do not realize they are doing works of mercy. Compare with Matt 25:34-40 (ESV)

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Once again I noticed that you have inserted something into the text. Infused is never used in with faith in relation to works. In fact, the proper relation to good works as the OP states is this:
Eph 2 (ESV)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So to put a bow on the discussion, the Faith that James is critical is the faith of a dead man. How dead is dead? Dead men don't do works of mercy because they are dead. So in the spiritual sense one is dead and so is his faith without works.

Thomas Cooper said:

Notice that while I discussed Luther’s scandalous actions, I only held his theological crimes against him, not his secular, to make my point. A bishop’s sins do not take away the facts he presented.

Bishop Eusebius Pamphillius of Cæsaria also pledged his allegiance to Christ’s Apostolic Church and held her teachings to be infallible.

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I believe Simony is an ecclesiastical crime not a secular crime. The point was that it was irony that Luther's bishop who was trying to "correct" him was the same bishop buying of a bishopric inadvertently sparked the Reformation.

I have read Eusebius, can provide the exact quote and source? I do not remember coming across this in my studies.

Athanasius377 Assuming you are on the side of works/obedience are not a part of, or necessary for our salvation, can you please explain why, in the following scripture, Jesus is telling us a very different story? IOW, he's stating very simply our actions, as in being good or bad, absolutely can, and will, keep us from salvation.

Thanks for your input.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Kenny'sID said:

Athanasius377 Assuming you are on the side of works/obedience are not a part of, or necessary for our salvation, can you please explain why, in the following scripture, Jesus is telling us a very different story? IOW, he's stating very simply our actions, as in being good or bad, absolutely can, and will, keep us from salvation.

Thanks for your input.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

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Certainly,

Lets put the verse into the bigger context because your question is answered in the same chapter.

John 5:19-29 (ESV)
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

So is Jesus speaking out both sides of his mouth? The answer obviously is no. Those who who believe are able to do to good and those who do not believe are not able to do good. Compare with Hebrews 11:6-7 (ESV)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

In other words those with faith will obey and do good works because they are a new creation in Christ:

2 Cor 5:17 (ESV)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Does that help?

redleghunter said:

What is the nature of children of wrath? Children of Light?

What separates the two?

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If you have something to say, just say it, way too many games here already.

Athanasius377 said:

Certainly,

Lets put the verse into the bigger context because your question is answered in the same chapter.

John 5:19-29 (ESV)
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

So is Jesus speaking out both sides of his mouth? The answer obviously is no. Those who who believe are able to do to good and those who do not believe are not able to do good. Compare with Hebrews 11:6-7 (ESV)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

In other words those with faith will obey and do good works because they are a new creation in Christ:

2 Cor 5:17 (ESV)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Does that help?

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Yes it helps to be saved and have accepted Christ as out mentor.

And yes, without faith it is impossible to please God

And briefly on the mention of Noah, I believe they paid their dues in works in order to prove their faith, I mean that was one BIG boat.

Athanasius377 said:

In other words those with faith will obey and do good works because they are a new creation in Christ:

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Sorry you answer was not nearly as straight forward as Christs was, as he just flat out said what would happen to the good and what would happen to the bad. For that reason I need to be clear... are saying faith alone doesn't cut it, we must have works to go with it, or faith and works"? Or basically we MUST be good regardless of the other things you mention? I'm just trying to keep it simple.

And before we go on, I'll need to know if I was correct in my assumption of what you believe, and there was nothing complicated about the assumption, either I was or I wasn't correct.

Kenny'sID said:

Yes it helps to be saved and have accepted Christ as out mentor.

And yes, without faith it is impossible to please God

And briefly on the mention of Noah, I believe they paid their dues in works in order to prove their faith, I mean that was one BIG boat.



Sorry you answer was not nearly as straight forward as Christs was, as he just flat out said what would happen to the good and what would happen to the bad. For that reason I need to be clear... are saying faith alone doesn't cut it, we must have works to go with it, or faith and works"? Or basically we MUST be good regardless of the other things you mention? I'm just trying to keep it simple.

And before we go on, I'll need to know if I was correct in my assumption of what you believe, and there was nothing complicated about the assumption, either I was or I wasn't correct.

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So ignore the context and pick what you want. Yes it's simple alright. If you want to know what I believe scripture teaches it is this: a person is saved by Grace through faith alone. It is an unmerited gift that can never be earned. But once you are saved you do good works because you are a new creation. It's part of your new nature. Good works demonstrate faith but do not save. To put it another way if you have to do anything to be saved then it isn't a gift it's a wage and how is that good news?