Christians and Trump

Albion · Jan 25, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I've always been a Democrat and I'm appalled by the support for Trump from evangelicals. I've always been an evangelical and haven't heard the gospel from this man once.

mark kennedy said:
They would meander around, maybe they were Christians maybe they weren't, Since Carter I've yet to see a President that I'm sure was a Christian.

When all is said and done, there doesn't appear to be much of a contrast after all.

DennisTate · Jan 25, 2019

mindlight said:
As a British man living in Germany I have often found myself defending Trump in conversation from a distorted media impression given here about him. But he did make a reasonable Supreme Court Judge decision with Kavanaugh and he seems to have been more positive towards Christians in the USA and internationally also. The man has clear character flaws though which many Europeans love to fasten onto. He is a serial adulterer and has clearly lied on several occasions about major things. He does seem to be a bit of narcissist also and his views on Mexicans are borderline racist. How should Christians hold the tension of his personal life and the good things he sometimes does in balance?

In our bible group on Wednesday we got to discussing the difference between Martin Luther and Trump. Both men were demagogues who knew how to connect to people. Both were criticised by existing institutions that felt threatened by the power these men exercise over the mob (by their populism). But the key difference was not their horizontal appeal but rather their vertical integration and depth. Trump has clearly not translated the bible from original manuscripts and spent years working on discerning its meaning. He lacks the substance that characterises the truly devout and his policies while sometimes good have the impression of floating apart from any coherent personal narrative or agenda or beliefs. Indeed would probably not be able to engage in a discussion with a man like Luther to any meaningful depth.

Should it matter to Christians that Trump seems to lack any kind of Christian depth or understanding? Or is it enough that he does things that on the Christian wish list like destroying ISIS, appointing reasonable Supreme Court justices and saying Happy Christmas rather than Happy Holidays?

I think that it is pretty obvious that G-d is artistically inclined......
so I am open to the possibility of G-d working out something quite unusual in front of all the world with President Trump. "A film devoid of conflict is boring." (R. W.)

“God says a President that I will bring into the White House they will say he is ungodly, he
does not
know God. Even as Jesus disguised himself for the great feasts, so I've disguised this
man's heart. When he comes to the White House not only shall he be Mine but he shall pray as a
man that has never prayed in the White House. That same man shall put his
feet onto this
platform. They will say how did this take place? Laws shall change. Young men and young
women will have access into the kingdom and with authority into politics and with authority into
the industries that now have been controlled by darkness
because of this man that shall rule for
two terms. Do not fear there will be no unnecessary stuff. There will be things that men shall
question. Fear not for he shall sit in that seat and suddenly My Spirit shall come upon him and
baptize him with a fire
and with anointing says the Spirit of the Lord. No more war. The time for
war has gone. The time for Peace has come. The House that you call White shall receive a man, a
knight, who fought for you in your nights.” (Kim Clement, June 17, 2007
–
San Jose , CA )

Shiloh Raven · Jan 25, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
I couldn't vote for either of them. The good thing is I don't have to defend either of them so as to justify my vote. My glasses aren't Democrat Party or Trump Party glasses.

We had two bad choices. Should have picked someone else. But we didn't. Evangelicals should have picked someone else but they didn't. Elections have consequences. Maybe we will be a smarter electorate next time around. Or not.

I didn't vote for Trump or Clinton either. I just couldn't bring myself to vote for either one of them, so I voted Third Party for the first time. I felt like it would have violated my conscience to have voted for either one and I felt like it would have also compromised my Christian values and my witness.

seeking.IAM · Jan 25, 2019

Albion said:
Maybe if we had the speeches or sermons delivered by the preceding six or seven presidents on the subject of the Gospel in front of us we could make a fair comparison. Carter might qualify, but who else would?

I actually heard a great sermon and testimony on his faith from Barack Obama delivered to the General Synod of the United Church of Christ when he was a member. Does that count?

Albion · Jan 25, 2019

I would think so, although I do not know what he said there.

Albion · Jan 25, 2019

mark kennedy said:
They would meander around, maybe they were Christians maybe they weren't, Since Carter I've yet to see a President that I'm sure was a Christian. With Trump there is no doubt, he definitely is not and yet enjoys so much Christian support, puzzling at best.

I have to say that such a comment doesn't do a thing to strengthen the claim we all have been discussing here. :sigh:

Tutorman · Jan 25, 2019

mindlight said:
Should it matter to Christians that Trump seems to lack any kind of Christian depth or understanding?

I do not care, I did not vote for a new Priest or Pastor. I voted for a person that can make America great again after the last guy ruined every aspect of this great country and liberals still want to destroy. As a Liturgical Christian (not an evangelical) I wholeheartedly support President Trump

mindlight said:
Or is it enough that he does things that on the Christian wish list like destroying ISIS, appointing reasonable Supreme Court justices and saying Happy Christmas rather than Happy Holidays?

Those are great things

chevyontheriver · Jan 25, 2019

Shiloh Raven said:
I didn't vote for Trump or Clinton either. I just couldn't bring myself to vote for either one of them, so I voted Third Party for the first time. I felt like it would have violated my conscience to have voted for either one and I felt like it would have also compromised my Christian values and my witness.

Exactly how I felt. So I voted for McMullen. He had basically no chance other than if he won Utah and the race was otherwise tight enough that neither of the big two got 270 electoral votes. Then the House could have picked neither of the big two and decided for a sane candidate to win. But he didn't even get close in Utah. Oh well. It was a long shot. A really long shot. But I don't carry the shame of voting for Hillary or the shame of voting for The Donald.

mark kennedy · Jan 25, 2019

Albion said:
I have to say that such a comment doesn't do a thing to strengthen the claim we all have been discussing here.

Trump is not a Christian, I dare say there is little doubt about that. Whether or not he is a benefit to the white evangelical right is highly questionable but that's politics.

Radagast · Jan 25, 2019

mark kennedy said:
Trump is not a Christian, I dare say there is little doubt about that. Whether or not he is a benefit to the white evangelical right is highly questionable but that's politics.

Typical issues driving Evangelicals to Trump are (1) abortion and (2) Democrat moves to prevent Christian schools from maintaining a Christian ethos.

Trump may not be a Christian, but at least he's not actively hostile to Christianity.

Sketcher · Jan 26, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I've always been a Democrat and I'm appalled by the support for Trump from evangelicals. I've always been an evangelical and haven't heard the gospel from this man once. Ok, he is a public official and shouldn't expect that necessarily but I'm not buying the Christian right baloney that Trump is better then the alternative. Clinton wasn't a great choice but she was better then this guy.

The wars she supported were the big difference maker for me. Personally, I knew the country was screwed when Trump was nominated, we were down to three horrible choices at that point. If the Republican primaries had runoffs, he wouldn't have been the nominee.

Allandavid · Jan 26, 2019

Radagast said:
Typical issues driving Evangelicals to Trump are (1) abortion and (2) Democrat moves to prevent Christian schools from maintaining a Christian ethos.

Trump may not be a Christian, but at least he's not actively hostile to Christianity.

Neither of which he has had the slightest effect upon....

Women in the US can obtain abortions.

Christian schools can still do Christiany things...

Allandavid · Jan 26, 2019

Sketcher said:
The wars she supported were the big difference maker for me. Personally, I knew the country was screwed when Trump was nominated, we were down to three horrible choices at that point. If the Republican primaries had runoffs, he wouldn't have been the nominee.

The wars she ‘supported’...?

Do you mean the ones that the US is still involved in...?

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

StrivingFollower said:
I'll never understand the people that criticize Trump supporters about his character. Have we ever had a decent Christian president at any point in history? It seems the nice guys never reach the top in politics, and it's always the kindest bully or sleaze that's successful. JFK's a good example. You look at his speeches, and you'd think "wow this guy's wise!" But he loved cheating on his wife. How about Bible examples? David with all his faith had an incredible amount of lust in his life. Why? Because Jesus said the rich have the hardest challenge in avoiding temptation.

Why I love Christianity is because it's all about reality. Every sin gets pointed out. I don't care about who cheated on his wife the least, i care about who is simply the most productive president. Whatever stupidity he does in his personal life can't carry a fraction of the weight that presidential irresponsibility would bring. When I support Trump, I'm not saying "I'm glad he sins!" I'm saying "well he'd do a lot more good for the country than the other pigs." It's not about Trump, it's about America. God didn't say "priorities? forget priorities!" God doesn't support delusion. We live in a fallen world, where the only people loud enough to get political attention are weirdos and jerks.

It is true that no one is righteous not even one. But David had his Psalms and JFK his moon landing speech. I guess a key difference with Trump is transparency. He appears sincere , his faults are obvious but somehow people support him anyway. Why we trust one man over another is the key issue here. Maybe Trump is supported cause he ticks the Christian wish list for policies and because we are fed up with the artificiality of picture perfect claims in a world when sins are all too easy to expose. After all are not we also vulnerable to the same relentless critique and surveillance.

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
This is no different from his predecessor. Obviously there are political differences between the major US parties on various issues. Although the religious right in America has tried to equate opinions in politics with being religiously good or evil, this isn't really so.

The Merry Christmas is quite subdued, no crosses no Christian symbols of any sort and set in the context of a holiday message. Also this was at election time.

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
Here's a time when I'm really glad not to be an evangelical. And really glad not to have voted for Trump. Because the evangelicals should realize they got egg all over their faces. But they don't, not the ones who voted for Trump. Because voting for Trump has in a sense committed them to being on the side of Trump thick or thin. They failed to support Rubio or Fiorina or Cruz or any of the other good and noble candidates that would have made good and noble presidents. They went with a low flying con man instead, and after voting for him they defend the man they supported even when he is indefensible. It's a failure. The comparable failure is any Christian who voted for Hillary and now is suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.

If Christians are going to vote, we have to vote FOR a decent candidate and not just against a bad candidate. We got what we deserved with two big party candidates that were both bad, that we stopped only one of the two bad candidates.

It was a choice between two less than perfect candidates. Why the selection process at the party level seems to eliminate decency as a consideration for presidential candidate is a key question here. These were the candidates that the parties thought would win. So both idolised success over values.

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

Albion said:
You got his strong points right, but you were wrong about the racist claims and the out-of-control allegations about lies. It really is necessary to separate the facts from the opposition party's spin when these things come up in your discussion with friends, mindlight. That is not always easy to do, I realize.

The man is a demagogue who speaks to create his desired effect. But as a result he is often careless with the truth and makes misleading claims. Here are over 7000 examples.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...er-days/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1725ac0aec14

Regarding the racism , I said "borderline racism", which was kind of a play on words in the case of Mexicans (walls - borders get it). Also I do not think he personally is that bothered about race. But he feeds off racist feelings about immigrants and Muslims.

The business about Trump being supposedly a Christian theologian or Bible expert, however, mystifies me. He claims none of that and never pretends to be more devout than he is. What he does do, however, and it is very important, is not shrink from recognizing and respecting the religion and its adherents. That is quite refreshing.

What's more he has supported freedom of religion against the forces of intolerant secularism. That fact is recognized by the churches and churchmen even if his enemies want to focus on his personal piety, as though the two must always go 100% together, which of course is not the case.

I agree a political leader does not have to have that depth although historically Western countries have been blessed with many leaders with such understanding. Both Thatcher and Merkel were Pastors Kids for example. But in Trumps case while he ticks many of the items on the Christian wish list he does so in way that taints the church by association. Because the man does not seem to have any depth or Christian understanding and the sub text always seems self serving.

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

LiberalChristian1980 said:
No Christians voted for Donald Trump, but a lot of "Christians" did.

NO that is not true

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

Kaon said:
It should matter supremely, but you know the Word of God has already talked about this concerning people judging people by their spirit.

This is an exhibition on why even "Christians" will worship the beast and creation as they already do. To support a demagogue as a Christian is to be confused at best. To serve both a God and nation is to be confused at best.

Trump is doing exactly what he is supposed to do: take advantage of the ignorance of the citizens for the purposes of getting ahead. What else is there to do as a businessman in a capitalist society?

Yes even some of the elect may well be deceived by the AntiChrist when he comes. He will appeal to issues close to our heart in a way that makes us think he represents our values and we will forget to look for evidence of Gods grace and Gods agenda in his life.

mindlight · Jan 26, 2019

mark kennedy said:
Wow, that must be some kind of an unusually intellectual Bible study group, my compliments on the depth. I've always been a Democrat, and God help me, politically I believe myself doomed to remain one for the rest of my natural life. I see good things that could come of the Trump agenda but his diplomatic approach is juvenile and sporadic, his disdain for NATO and love for Russia offends me in ways I cannot express on a casual discussion forum. Trump is not a Christian, I see no Christian profession coming from this man either in the past or any time in the future. What he gets as support from his white evangelical base seems more focused on the right to life movement and a disdain for the far left, believe me I understand their political frustration.

Comparing Luther to Trump is a stretch for me, but I like the way you expressed the idea. Other then that a fascinating OP, appreciate you sharing such an interesting view.

Yes our bible group has a combination of Germans, Americans and Brits in the group and some very strong minded men there, in fact it was all men this week though there are 4-5 women who sometimes come. Sometimes it is hard to get a word in but our discussions are always lively. This week we were discussing compromise based on Romans 14-15 strong and weak believers. Basically strong Christians need to be flexible to accommodate the weakness and more limited understandings of Gods grace of weaker Christians for the sake of the unity of the church. The message had obvious political implications with BREXIT, US Govt shutdown and Yellow Vests in Paris all being topical right now.

My commiserations on your being a Democrat ;-)

What he is doing to NATO is my biggest concern about him. Friendlier relations with Russia could be a good thing but not at the expense of the alliance which is crucial for world stability.

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