The little horn

TribulationSigns said:

The little horn has nothing to do with any man in history. God did not see little horn this way. The horn in Scripture signifies power, not man. When the little horn comes, God is talking about the short season of power that Satan will have at that time. Nothing to do with particular man.. in Rome or anywhere.

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So the Reformation was meaningless?

The eschatology concerning the little horn did not occur during the time of Reformation. So to search for a certain emperor to fit the bill is indeed meaningless. The identity of the beast (and the little horn) and the timing on their part are wrong.

TribulationSigns said:

The eschatology concerning the little horn did not occur during the time of Reformation. So to search for a certain emperor to fit the bill is indeed meaningless. The identity of the beast (and the little horn) and the timing on their part are wrong.

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You've just made the Jesuits' day.

You can't try to interpret a single person/power/event in prophecy out of the context of all the other events in prophecy/history.
What I mentioned above matches at least 10 prophecies (there are way more details and prophecies that matches) encompassing more than 1700 yeas and in all cases the symbol is matched by the historical event in time, sequence and acts.
The little horn is of the Roman beast = so is the origin of the popery.
The little horn break 3 horns in its rising to power = so did the popery
The little horn has eyes, meaning it is a religious folk = so is the popery
The little horn have a mouth , meaning it is a preacher = so is the popery
The little horn mouth blasphemes God = so do the popery
The little horn mouth blasphemes the people in heaven = so does the popery

You can't invent this...
Please refer to "Romanism and the Protestant reformation from the stand point of prophecy" where Guinnes goes to long lenghts proving point by point in History how the papacy fulfills the prophecy about the antichrist.

TribulationSigns said:

The eschatology concerning the little horn did not occur during the time of Reformation. So to search for a certain emperor to fit the bill is indeed meaningless. The identity of the beast (and the little horn) and the timing on their part are wrong.

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Before looking for something in History or in the news that may be a phophecy fulfillment you need to understand, from the Bible, what that symbol means.
A "Beast" is very well defined by the angel in Daniel 7:17 as "Kings". It is almost unanimous interpretation that the beasts there the kingdoms of Babylon, Mede/Persians, Greece and Rome.

From there we learn 2 things:
1 - A beast is a kingdom, which in current language we would say a pagan human government system
2 - A "king" does not ref. to a person but to a dynasty. Please see that the angel says that after the head of gold would come another king but it was not Nabucodonossor that fell to the Persians but his grandson... also the "king" that came after was not a single person but the Persians had a sequence of kings until they fell to the Greeks.... So a King is a dynasty and not a person.
This way also with antichrist in rev. 17 which is called "the 8th king"....
it is a function/dynasty and not a single person....
The papacy is the pagan government system that took over continuing the Roman Beast rule.
The papacy was created by the Roman Emperors, nothing to do with Jesus.... It was a decree of a Roman Politician....

TribulationSigns said:

The little horn has nothing to do with any man in history. God did not see little horn this way. The horn in Scripture signifies power, not man. When the little horn comes, God is talking about the short season of power that Satan will have at that time. Nothing to do with particular man.. in Rome or anywhere.

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Is not a particular man, but a function, like the President, or the Prime Minister.... please see my post above.
Where is, in the bible, written that the little horn would last a short period of time?

RACarvalho said:

A "Beast" is very well defined by the angel in Daniel 7:17 as "Kings". It is almost unanimous interpretation that the beasts are the kingdoms of Babylon, Mede/Persians, Greece and Rome.

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Based upon MY studies of Scriptures, unfortunately, the traditional interpretations of the four kings of Daniel chapter 7 usually are that they are literal empires like you claim as Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. However, I've studied this enough to know that this is not true. When we examine the scriptures more carefully we see that God is NOT interested in history lessons of worldly empires, but is illustrating spiritual truths.

Daniel 7:2-3

• "Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
• And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another."

God has inspired these truths to be written in cryptic symbolism. For example, patterned after four literal ruling Kingdoms (Chaldea, Persian, Greece and Rome), but symbolizing a spiritual rule in the earth. These four beasts are spiritual pictures of the construct from which Satan rules, which is through carnal man. In other words, the four beasts actually symbolize systemic carnal world rule. In fact, in Revelation chapter 13 we can see these very same beasts pictured as one single beast that has all the aspects of these four beasts illustrated in Daniel chapter 7. I believe that they are four here to symbolize the "universality" of this rule of Satan over the peoples of the world that are attacking God's congregation on earth. The number 4 symbolizes universality. The beasts are kings, which symbolize rules. The wind many times is synonymous with spirit, and by this prophesy referring to "the four winds of the heaven," it implies the Holy Spirit. Horns are symbolic of power and strength. The winds of heaven here is an illustration that God ultimately controls all the universe, both good and bad (Revelation 7:7). The sea is the tumultuous world, or peoples of the world, often spoken of as humanity. And the beasts that came up from the sea "symbolize" epocs, dominions that successively emerge from the tumultuous disturbances of the world (mimicking the tumultuous sea -As Isaiah 13:4). Even as when Christ calmed the tumultuous sea it was illustrating His rule over the wicked forces of the world that would destroy His disciples in their ship (Church). So these four kings symbolize their universal rule. Diverse or different because they differ in symbolism, purpose, and strength.

The beast themselves is the systemic rule of Satan, "THROUGH CARNAL MEN" that are "AS BEASTS," I believe that it is talking about Satan and his ministers of unrighteousness, which are PEOPLE. In other words, they have professed believers which is how Satan rules through them to attack the Lord's people in the old testament and new testament. Nothing to go with world empires.

Today, the final beast represents Satan coming out of the bottomless pit as a "little horn" (Power to rule for little season) through false prophets and christs to deceive those within God's New Testament congregation (Babylon the Great).

1 - A beast is a kingdom, which in current language we would say a human government system

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No, the beast is not a physical kingdom. God did NOT give us a "literal" history lesson about Greece, Persia, Rome, or even Papal, but a "spiritual" history lesson about a far more sinister spiritual rule than any world power. Christ is the prince of peace so what kingdom does He rule through? Likewise, Satan is the Prince of this world, thus what kingdom does he rule? Their rules are not from physical thrones or nations, but from spiritual principalities whom we have fought against. That is what you do not understand. Even though God has stated it in many diverse ways again and again and again. Yet people still eschew the spiritual nature of what God is speaking about:

Ephesians 6:12 KJV
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Whether we like it or not, God is here telling us that our battle is not against the power of empires or polling booths, it's not even physical, it's not political, it's not against nations. It is against a "spiritual principality, a spiritual power and spiritual wickedness." Everyone reads these things but few take it to heart.

Colossians 2:14-15 KJV
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

These principalities and powers that Christ spoiled were not Greece or Persia. It was not Rome and Papal. Rather it was spiritual "Egypt" and spiritual principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world. Not limited to the boundary of world empires in your favorite history book. The True Christian must take his mind off the nations, empires, thrones, dynasty, or Papal tiara and think on a nation FROM ABOVE and just how it is being attacked spiritually! So I tell you the truth, take your eyes off this world and put them on Christ.

You can laugh about it as you wish, but be warned, God is talking about wicked men ruled by Satan:

Psalms 2:2-4 KJV
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Selah!

Satan is thee beast, ruling through men, who are as beasts. Just as Satan is thee antichrist, ruling in many antichrists, which are men. There is a principle here that you are missing in your misinterpretation of scripture. Think about it. Why does God call wicked men serpents, and calls Satan the serpent? Why is Christ called the Star, and we, His servants, called stars? The point I am making is that just because you cannot recognize Satan as the beast, and natural or carnal man as a beast, doesn't mean God doesn't. Selah! Look at what happened to Paul:

1st Corinthians 15:32

• "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

Did He wrestle with a physical bear, spar with a lion or tangle with a leopard? No, his fight was with men who were "as beasts" in that God saw them as without moral values, judgment, knowledge or wisdom. It is who Paul had to deal daily just like we have today. We deal with beasts daily!

Now, if I might digress for a minute. What separates man from the dumb beasts of the field is his reasoning and intelligence. Man was created in the image or likeness of God so that (unlike dumb beasts) man was instilled with a certain intellect, reason and the inherent knowledge of His creator. Right? So the beasts have no reasoning, they have no knowledge, and they are not sensible. God often contrasts man with beast and even labels man a beast himself when he acts foolishly or without reasoning, or in a ravenous or vicious way. God even goes so far as to speak of man as a beast when illustrating man as unknowledgeable or simple (stupid, if you will). So the symbolism of a beast I believe is to illustrate man under influence of Satan acting without reason or knowledge, or when lacking in wisdom and understanding, as one acting foolishly. That is why we have many false prophets and christs in our churches today! Even King David admitted that he himself once was a beast!

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

Apparently, God thinks the foolish and ignorant man "IS" as a beast. Not really something to LOL about.

Therefore, when you read about the beast in prophecy language, GOd is talking about PEOPLE whom Satan has an influence upon. Its not with physical empires that you thought!

Selah!

RACarvalho said:

Is not a particular man, but a function, like the President, or the Prime Minister.... please see my post above.
Where is, in the bible, written that the little horn would last a short period of time?

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First, if you are a student of the Bible, CAN you show me the verses where God has defined the horn as power? Then we will go from there.

TribulationSigns said:

Therefore, when you read about the beast in prophecy language, GOd is talking about PEOPLE whom Satan has an influence upon. Its not with physical empires that you thought!
Selah!

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And the people that satam have influence upon build powers that govern the earth...
See that God went to great lenghts in DETAIL of the beasts so we can identify what satanic power fighting against God He, God, is talking about.
The symbol of beast is very appropriate for the pagan human system that governs the world have a lot of power but almost no understanding... It is a beast!
Prophecy have various functions including instruction and consolation.
The believers in Jerusalem fled from it when Cestius retrieved his 66AD surrounding of the city so when Titus came and surrounded it again in 70AD, no believer was inside... So Jesus Prophecy in Matthew 24 worked as instruction....
Latter in the second century, when the Roman empire was out conquering and to conquer and the only news the believers had was that the Empire was expanding and Christians where being killed because they would not worship the emperor, the believers would be heavily temped to ask: Were is Jesus....
Until they go to the market and get a coin with the White horse stamped in it....
Glory be to God that tells the end at the beginning !
No, he is not interested in the business of the pagan government but He loves His people...

RACarvalho said:

And the people that satam have influence upon build powers that govern the earth...

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No, Satan's influence is not limited to the boundary of the physical empire. Sorry. It is PEOPLE, wherever they are.

See that God went to great lenghts in DETAIL of the beasts so we can identify what satanic power fighting against God He, God, is talking about.

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Really, show me the verses. Like I said, God is not interested in history lesson on empires because this is NOT what God talked about. Don't forget the spiritual principalities.

The symbol of beast is very appropriate for the pagan human system that governs the world have a lot of power but almost no understanding... It is a beast!

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Carnal speculations. Show me the verses where Beast is defined as a pagan human system that requires a physical rule. Haven't you read the part about Paul's dealing with the beasts? Did he wrestle with the stones of physical government or people with spirit of antichrist. You tell me.

Prophecy have various functions including instruction and consolation.

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What are you talking about?

The believers in Jerusalem fled from it when Cestius retrieved his 66AD surrounding of the city so when Titus came and surrounded it again in 70AD, no believer was inside... So Jesus Prophecy in Matthew 24 worked as instruction....

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I am not going to deal with the false doctrine of preterism here.

TribulationSigns said:

No, Satan's influence is not limited to the boundary of the physical empire. Sorry. It is PEOPLE, wherever they are.

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and so? What is your point?

TribulationSigns said:

Really, show me the verses. Like I said, God is not interested in history lesson on empires because this is NOT what God talked about. Don't forget the spiritual principalities.

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Please read my posts!
In Daniel dream of the 4 beasts, each beast have details so we can indemtify the powers...
In Daniel 8, the vision of the Ram and the goat, very specific details showing Alexander the Great (single horn in the goat) defeating the Mede/Persian Ram and later, including that Alexander would die at the peak of his power and his four generals would take over... etc.
The white horse of Revelation 6:2 showing the details of the Cretan Emperors (which had as their symbol a bow)
The red horse of revelation 6:4, showing the fight for power within the Roman leadership that followed the Cretan Emperors.
The black horse, which shows the famine brought in by the inflaciton caused by the disarrangement of the Roman government, including the prices for wheat and barley THAT WHERE IN THE MARKET in the year 212AD....
And so on and so on...
To me that is a lot of detail and a lot of comfort from God for saints that had to go through all of that...

TribulationSigns said:

Carnal speculations. Show me the verses where Beast is defined as a pagan human system that requires a physical rule. Haven't you read the part about Paul's dealing with the beasts? Did he wrestle with the stones of physical government or people with spirit of antichrist. You tell me.

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Pleas read my post: THE ANGEL defined what a beast is and we know that.

TribulationSigns said:

What are you talking about?

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I'm talking about the PRACTICAL use of prophecy since you mentioned the spiritual realities of it. Yes, there are spiritual realties to it, but there are also practical use for it.

TribulationSigns said:

I am not going to deal with the false doctrine of preterism here.

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That is not preterism.
in Revelation 1:1 John wrote that "...God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"
The prophecies in the book of Revelation are being fulfilled since the book was written and will continue until the new Jerusalem comes down.
Currently, everything up to Revelation 16:12 is fulfilled... This is called Historicism and is how the saints have being interpreting the prophecies since they were first given, Including Jesus that mentioned Daniel 9:27 - A prophecy about Jerusalem destruction by the Romans.....

TribulationSigns said:

First, if you are a student of the Bible, CAN you show me the verses where God has defined the horn as power? Then we will go from there.

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Several places but just to keep in the Book of Daniel you can read:
Daniel 8:20-22 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Here you have the angel Gabriel assigning the symbol horn to the kings to Media, Persia and Greece....

RACarvalho said:

and so? What is your point?

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Think. Satan's power is not limited to the boundary of the empire. It is far more than that and he does not need a government to accomplish his goal. Its people.

In Daniel 8, the vision of the Ram and the goat, very specific details showing Alexander the Great (single horn in the goat) defeating the Mede/Persian Ram and later, including that Alexander would die at the peak of his power and his four generals would take over... etc.

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Now you want to deal with the vision of Ram and He Goat? Not the beasts? Sigh.. I have heard all of that before. And it is not accurate on who you think they represent. Before I say who they represents let me ask you... what do the horns upon the ram represent. The longer one that comes out last. What does that means? Don't tell me that you are trying to look through the history book, are you?

The white horse of Revelation 6:2 showing the details of the Cretan Emperors (which had as their symbol a bow)

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White horse of Revelation 6? What are you doing? What happened with the subject about little horn? I think you are jumping around with many too subjects at once. Slow down. Focus on the subjects we are dealing on now. Thank you.

RACarvalho said:

Several places but just to keep in the Book of Daniel you can read:
Daniel 8:20-22 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Here you have the angel Gabriel assigning the symbol horn to the kings to Media, Persia and Greece....

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Obviously, you have not checked with the rest of Scripture. This is how you do your homework:

The horns used in Scripture to represent the strength or power, as for example the Beast with 10 horns, etc. Look at Psalms 8:21; 2nd Samuel 22:3, in saying "horn of my salvation," it is the same as saying the Power of salvation, because in the Bible the horn is usually the symbol of power. You can see that the power of the Bull is its horns, and that is what men are most afraid of concerning these type animals, and even today in many areas the horns of animals are viewed as powerful and even magical. God used horns symbolically this way, which is why there were horns on the Altar. The altar is for the administration of the sacrifice, which represented Christ. In understanding this we can readily see why God says "Horn of my Salvation" and why there are horns on the Altar. It's because all throughout the Bible we see it illustrates they are a "figure" or symbol of the power or strength of whatever is in view. Here are some examples:

Psalms 89:17

• "For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted."

People don't literally have a horn to be lifted up strengthening them of course, but the horn is used here to convey the sense of believers being exalted in the glory of "His" strength. We are lifted up in His strength (Psalms 46:1; 81:1) rather than our own. For example:

Lamentations 2:3

• "He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

Here God uses the symbol in saying he would cut off the horn of Israel, meaning He would break off their "Power" so that they will be defeated. Again, the horn there is used as a symbol of their power being broken

Deuteronomy 33:17

• "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh."

Here again, the horn is used to symbolize the power and strength of the Bullock that enables him to overcome or push against the people.

Lamentations 2:17

• "The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries."

In this passage, God uses the horn to signify that he has taken away their strength or power of Israel as judgment, and has exalted the horn (Power) of their adversaries to overcome them. In other words, while (verse 3) cutting off the horn of Israel means they no longer had Power to stand against their enemies, here in this passage, setting up the horn of their adversaries (verse 17) means that the enemies now had the Power to conquer Israel. Clearly the horns there signify Power or strength. We see that when a horn is broken or cut off, it is a signification that one's power has been broken or cut off. Whether used in conjunction with a crown, where it's man's ability to rule (as a king), or for something to be unable to stand or to have strength before his enemy, that cutting off of a horn signified the cutting off of power.

Now let deal with the ram and he-goat in Daniel:

Daniel 8:7

• "And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no Power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand."

Ahhh! Clearly and unambiguously God uses the horn to symbolize the power of the Ram. When the two horns were broken, that left him with no more power to stand before he-goat. This is what those broken "horns" symbolized, broken power. And the same goes for the power of evil when it was broken.

Daniel 8:8

• "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."

The great horn allowed the wicked he-goat to push with power so that the Ram could not stand before him. For example, it 'symbolized' his great power. But now we see that likewise, whenthis He goat's horn was broken, it also symbolizes his power being broken or taken away wherein other forces rose up.

We see the same scenario in Revelation chapter 17 where there is this Beast who had ten horns. Here the number ten signifies fullness, and the horns signify power. So this imagery is to illustrate the fullness of time these kings rule with "power" along with the Beast.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive Power as kingsone hour with the beast."

The horns once again defined by God as the power that they received to rule with the beast for this short period. Another passage where this illustration of horns signifying power can be seen in 1st Kings.

1st Kings 22:11

• "And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the LORD, With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them."

Here God uses the imagery of horns of iron to illustrate the great power of them by which these men could push the Syrians and defeat them. The God authored and recurring theme of horns is that they symbolize the power of whatever is in view. Likewise, the lamb of Revelation chapter five verse six has seven horns to illustrate its power. The number seven illustrates the completeness or totality of whatever is in view, and thus this represents the complete power of Christ as He is the Lamb of God that was slain. As the sacrifice lamb (as in the 4 horns of the Altar), He was the appointed sacrifice who had complete or total power. Christ illustrated This complete power Himself. Consider wisely:

Matthew 28:18

• "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

1st Peter 3:22

• "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

So the Lamb with 7 horns signifies Jesus Christ as He was sacrificed on the altar of God, with the complete power of God for the atonement. That is what its seven horns represent! This was the mirror witness of God in speaking of the power of the sacrifice in the imagery of the 4 horns of the altar.

Leviticus 4:7

• "And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."

Or when it is used in breaking the power of idolatry in breaking off the horns of the altar.

Amos 3:14

• "That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of the altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground."

By this God is illustrating that he is taking away its power or strength.

Now, do you get it? By God's own definition, the horns signify power or strength of whatever is in view.

As for the identity of the ram and he-goat, that is something else to be discussed later after you first explain to the question I asked earlier on what does the horns upon the rams signifies? Why does the longer one come up last? I am curious to see what you will come up with that! (hint it has nothing to do with the rise of Persia over medes as most supposed, sorry!)

RACarvalho said:

The little horn within the context of the other prophecies about the antichrist:

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Why are you calling President Obama, Senator Obama?

You don't get the point of my question do you?
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put "anti" in front of "Christ".

John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Little horn does not equal the Antichrist. Same forthcoming person. But different roles.
Senator does not equal President. Same person Obama, in my example. But different roles.

Instead of Little horn and the Antichrist and the beast. Think of the person as the arch villain of the end times. But in different roles.
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Nothing in your analysis has the person as the Antichrist. The person in the role of being the King of Israel instead of and against the rightful King of Israel, Jesus.

The pope(s)/papacy is not qualified to be the Antichrist. The person must be a Jew and thought to be a descendant from king David in order tor the Jews to errantly think he is their King of Israel messiah for a short time.

TribulationSigns said:

The little horn has nothing to do with any man in history. God did not see little horn this way. The horn in Scripture signifies power, not man. When the little horn comes, God is talking about the short season of power that Satan will have at that time. Nothing to do with particular man.. in Rome or anywhere.

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In the text of Daniel 7...

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn is the fourth king, as the four beasts represent four kings in the text, Daniel 7:17.

The beasts are metaphors for four kings in the text

When you take something that is already a metaphor in the text, and create aanother metaphor (in this case for the four kings of which one is the little horn) from it, it takes away the meaning of the text - and you pretty much can make up anything you want.

People often do that in Revelation 17:10, the heads represents 7 kings in the text, but they take kings and make that as a metaphor for something else, as RACavalho has done.

That's the flaw of your method of (?)interpretation.

Just let the four beasts in Daniel 7:17 be a metaphor for the four kings - and stop there. Don't make the kings, the little horn king into a metaphor for something else - power.

The little horn is a literal king.
The 7 kings in Revelation 17 are literal kings.

TribulationSigns said:

The eschatology concerning the little horn did not occur during the time of Reformation. So to search for a certain emperor to fit the bill is indeed meaningless. The identity of the beast (and the little horn) and the timing on their part are wrong.

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There are unquestionably many spiritual lessons to be learned from prophetic scripture. But to consign historically fulfilled prophecy exclusively to spiritualized futurity is to replicate dispensational futurism's errors of interpretation by imagination.

If the Reformers had believed that the little horn of Daniel 7, and other associated prophecies, were exclusively spiritual, there would have been no Reformation, and this forum would not exist today.

But their prophetic recognition and timing were unerringly accurate.

They paid for their faith, vision, and sacrifice by the many thousands with their lives.

We, including those who deny their contribution, are the beneficiaries today.

jgr said:

But their prophetic recognition and timing were unerringly accurate.

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Didn't the reformers think that Israel would never be a nation again?

Douggg said:

Didn't the reformers think that Israel would never be a nation again?

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I don't have any direct evidence of what they thought in that regard.

jgr said:

I don't have any direct evidence of what they thought in that regard.

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What did Luther think about the Jews?