Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

redleghunter

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Only those who endure to the end will be saved. No question of claiming salvation in advance in our life time
Romans 5 uses Justified in the past tense. So there’s a problem with your statement. But I agree the saints will endure to the end. Why they are called saints.
 
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Righttruth

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Romans 5 uses Justified in the past tense. So there’s a problem with your statement. But I agree the saints will endure to the end. Why they are called saints.
Sainthood should be recognized by others. It is not a kind of self-proclamation. For me, Jesus' words are supreme.
 
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redleghunter

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Your question:
"How one lives in obedience to Christ if they are not a new creation?"

The answer is that you can't. That is why you have to actually read Romans 8, where Paul describes the New Life in the Spirit by which you can live out Romans 6. Read it, then you will have your answer.
Romans 8:16 says The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.
 
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redleghunter

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Sainthood should be recognized by others. It is not a kind of self-proclamation. For me, Jesus' words are supreme.
Saints as in set apart.

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
 
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redleghunter

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@redleghunter You have debated in a completely dishonest manner. In these last responses you have completely dodged my arguments regarding works in salvation and have tried to derail the thread into other debates regarding Sola Scriptura and the Church. We are to emulate Christ, not the serpent, so let your yea be yea and nay be nay and debate honestly, starting with addressing my analogy:

"Let us compare our salvation to our physical life. Just as salvation is given by God's grace so to our life is given by God and can only be taken away by Him, for the Scripture says "for in him we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28)." We did not merit our birth and the breath of life poured into us, just as we do not merit our initial conversion and rebirth, as I am sure you agree. However, it absolutely cannot be denied that we live by our works. We must breath the breath into our lungs to keep the breath of life within us, else we suffocate. We must eat and drink to fuel our bodies and grow strong, else we starve and die. We must exercise our bodies so that we do not become unhealthy and die from the damage done to our bodies by our negligence. All these are works necessary for our survival and it cannot be denied that we ourselves do them, yet it also is true that our life is given and sustained by God. Our physical life is synergistic.

The exact same is true of our Salvation. Just as we must accept oxygen into our lungs we must accept the Spirit of God into ourselves and must do so continuously lest we become hard hearted and apostate, as the Scripture says "and in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them (Matthew 13:14-15)." Just as we must eat, drink and take medicine to sustain our bodies so to must we partake of the Holy Sacraments as our spiritual rejuvenation and medicine for as our Lord said "verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you (John 6:53)." Just as we must exercise our bodies lest we become unhealthy and die so to must we pray do good works, for as Saint James says "for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:26)." All these are necessary in the lifelong process of salvation, but that does not diminish God's grace in any way.

You are locked in a false dichotomy rooted in the subconscious of schismatics for 500+ years. Do not look at salvation like it is a legal document, look at it as healing and perfection, look at it as life. This is the truth of the Apostles, Fathers and the Church. This is the Gospel of Christ."


Address this now or expose yourself and your views as false.
Actually the beginning of debate the premises must be examined for validity.

If not the conversation goes in circles. You chose not to follow the OP and do a data dump of grievances against Protestants and certain made up doctrines like OSAS.

Which had no bearing on the OP topic.

So it went downhill from there.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Thank you, you’re absolutely correct!

And as Catholics we believe the Holy Spirit has guided the Church’s teachings and interpretations on sacred scripture since the Apostles founded her on Pentecost.
If you are granted understanding of Scripture as Luther was, and as Charles Chiniquoy was, then you will have more understanding than the disobedient church does, the one which cannot repent.
The understanding of Scripture hopefully will be granted, and bring Godly sorrow that leads to repentance, as it did for Luther and Chiniquoy and all the Ekklesia in ACTS and in the rest of the New Testament, and ever since then.
 
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setst777

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Your point was faith is not a gift but Grace is.

I guess the question is where does this faith come from? Was it something inherent in us or something “excited” by the gift of Grace? Because remember God made we who were dead in our trespasses alive in Christ. So we are in a dead spiritual state God makes us alive in Christ and then Paul states we are saved by Grace through faith.

Faith comes from hearing the Word about Christ:
Romans 10:17

Yet, not everyone who hears will believe.

Why?

Because many will resist the Spirit and the Word:
(Psalm 106:32; Isaiah 63:10; Acts 7:51; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29).

Why? Because many are proud and arrogant, like many of the Jews in Elect Israel are. So because they continually rejected His grace, God (in punishment) hardened their hearts so they could not hear His words and understand anymore, so they could not take hold of salvation anymore (John 12:40).

Christ Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the good news to the humble: Isaiah 61:1-2

Why?
Because the humble will listen: Pslam 25:9

The humble are the ones God promises in prophecy to teach, guide and save. All those prophecies are fulfilled in Christ - to all who are humble: Matthew 11:28.

Only those who are humble will listen to God through the Gospel message, and will be drawn by Christ by the Spirit.

The Spirit only indwells to regenerate those who believe.

This New Life is possible because, the Spirit we receive by faith sets us free from the bondage and curse of sin as we live out our faith in obedience to the Spirit – this is regeneration.

John 7:37-39 (NIV) Bolding mine
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 4:13-14
13
Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

The new life in Christ is only possible by the Spirit indwelling the one who believes. However, to receive the New Life (salvation) of the indwelling Spirit, we must obey the Spirit who lives in us, which is why we must daily crucify the old self - to take up or cross daily and follow Him:

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 6 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.


Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

Therefore, the true believers live by the Spirit whom they receive by faith in Christ – these are the regenerate, the sanctified, the New Creation.
 
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redleghunter

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Faith comes from hearing the Word about Christ:
Romans 10:17

Yet, not everyone who hears will believe.

Why?

Because many will resist the Spirit and the Word:
(Psalms 106:32; Isaiah 63:10; Acts 7:51; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29).

Why? Because many are proud and arrogant, like many of the Jews in Elect Israel are. So because they continually rejected His grace, God (in punishment) hardened their hearts so they could not hear His words and understand anymore, so they could not take hold of salvation anymore (John 14:40).

Christ Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the good news to the humble: Isaiah 61:1-2

Why?
Because the humble will listen: Pslams 25:9

The humble are the ones God promises in prophecy to teach, guide and save. All those prophecies are fulfilled in Christ - to all who are humble: Matthew 11:28.

Only those who are humble will listen to God through the Gospel message, and will be drawn by Christ by the Spirit.

The Spirit only indwells to regenerate those who believe.

This New Life is possible because, the Spirit we receive by faith sets us free from the bondage and curse of sin as we live out our faith in obedience to the Spirit – this is regeneration.

John 7:37-39 (NIV) Bolding mine
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 4:13-14
13
Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

The new life in Christ is only possible by the Spirit indwelling the one who believes. However, to receive the New Life (salvation) of the indwelling Spirit, we must obey the Spirit who lives in us, which is why we must daily crucify the old self - to take up or cross daily and follow Him:

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 6 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.


Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

Therefore, the true believers live by the Spirit whom they receive by faith in Christ – these are the regenerate, the sanctified, the New Creation.
I think there is an answer somewhere in there. Will hunt for it tomorrow. Thanks!
 
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redleghunter

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I don't prefer pick and chose verses or part verses of Paul. Can you defend based on Jesus' words?
Sure.

John 10:27-30
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.”
 
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setst777

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Romans 8:16 says The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

You are only children of God, born of God, by faith in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 3 (WEB)
26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 1 (NIV)
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Now, you have to read ALL of Romans 8 to understand life in the Spirit. Don't just pick out one verse as if isolated verses are magical potions. Would you read any other book that way?

Blessings
 
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mark kennedy

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Yes I agree. He was stealing money from the treasury and John 6:64 says Jesus knew he didn’t believe.
In John 6:70 Jesus callled him, 'a devil'. A few fun facts, he was the only Judean, the only one of the 12 with a surname. At the Last Supper he sat in the place of honor, and after Jesus had washed his feet we went to his enemies and sold him out for what ever they wanted to give him. One might wonder why Jesus called him in the first place, reading Jude or 2 Peter 2 it makes sense, he was showing them how you handle false brethren.
 
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mark kennedy

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Who has said this? Many problems arise when people only see the surface but can't see beneath to the wonders hidden from their view.
You said faith is a work, that is akin to trying to make the sabbath or baptism works meriting salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher saving faith does not originate with the elect, it is received as a gift of gracelike every other aspect of salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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In John 6:70 Jesus callled him, 'a devil'. A few fun facts, he was the only Judean, the only one of the 12 with a surname. At the Last Supper he sat in the place of honor, and after Jesus had washed his feet we went to his enemies and sold him out for what ever they wanted to give him. One might wonder why Jesus called him in the first place, reading Jude or 2 Peter 2 it makes sense, he was showing them how you handle false brethren.

Jesus called Judas to fulfill the prophecy so that He could pay for our sins.
 
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