Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 24, 2019

Thank you very much. I’m trying to apply an apologetics course I’m taking to the real world. Hopefully this part of the internet is nicer than the rest

Gracia Singh said:
Well said, Thomas! Well said.

redleghunter · Jan 24, 2019

Thomas Cooper said:
Sola Fieta was a doctrine mostly invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. Because Luther only had a limited knowledge of scripture, he was initially unaware of scripture’s contradictions on the matter.

Don’t know what Sola Fieta is. But he was Doctor Luther for a reason.

There are no contradictions in Holy Scriptures.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 24, 2019

redleghunter said:
Don’t know what Sola Fieta is. But he was Doctor Luther for a reason.

There are no contradictions in Holy Scriptures.

Sola Fieta is the technical Latin for faith alone.
At the turn of the 16th century, MDiv’s and doctorates weren’t as hard to earn, one simply needed to afford university and study theology.
If you would review my previous post, sacred scripture repeatedly contradicts the idea of faith alone.
Thank you and God bless

redleghunter · Jan 24, 2019

Thomas Cooper said:
When Luther was shown this passage by a local bishop, his response was to remove James from the Bible entirely (along with Revelation and others for different reasons).

Luther did not remove books from the Bible.

He along with Catholic scholars of his time looked at the long history of the Church and its relationship to the antilegomena which James was one of 7 disputed books which later was added to the canon.

redleghunter · Jan 24, 2019

Thomas Cooper said:
Sola Fieta is the technical Latin for faith alone.
At the turn of the 16th century, MDiv’s and doctorates weren’t as hard to earn, one simply needed to afford university and study theology.
If you would review my previous post, sacred scripture repeatedly contradicts the idea of faith alone.
Thank you and God bless

You mean Sola Fide. And to compare degrees of today with the 16th century is an anachronism.

He was a doctor and you should actually study his life and works before making assertions. Since you are Roman Catholic I highly recommend Ratzinger’s (Pope Benedict XVI) works on Luther and not rely on Scott Hahn for history.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 24, 2019

redleghunter said:
Luther did not remove books from the Bible.

He along with Catholic scholars of his time looked at the long history of the Church and its relationship to the antilegomena which James was one of 7 disputed books which later was added to the canon.

If you trust Wikipedia, here’s its article on Luther’s unique biblical canon.
Luther's canon - Wikipedia
James was added to the canon of the Bible with the rest of the books when the Church assembled the canon at the Council of Hippo in 393.
If you’re referring to the “7 books” which now separate Protestant Bibles from Catholic Bibles, those were actually removed in the early 19th century by an American printing company.

redleghunter · Jan 24, 2019

Thomas Cooper said:
If you trust Wikipedia, here’s its article on Luther’s unique biblical canon.
Luther's canon - Wikipedia
James was added to the canon of the Bible with the rest of the books when the Church assembled the canon at the Council of Hippo in 393.
If you’re referring to the “7 books” which now separate Protestant Bibles from Catholic Bibles, those were actually removed in the early 19th century by an American printing company.

Keep hitting the books and come back.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
Don’t know what Sola Fieta is. But he was Doctor Luther for a reason.

There are no contradictions in Holy Scriptures.

Rather (than contradictions in Scripture), Luther exposed the contradictions he saw clearly in the church he had been part of.
Likewise anyone before, during or after Luther, (even a little child), who reads the Bible and receives understanding from the Father in heaven.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
You mean Sola Fide. And to compare degrees of today with the 16th century is an anachronism.

He was a doctor and you should actually study his life and works before making assertions. Since you are Roman Catholic I highly recommend Ratzinger’s (Pope Benedict XVI) works on Luther and not rely on Scott Hahn for history.

Thank you for the correction on Sola Fide, I thought for sure that what I had was the right term.
Thank you for questioning my sources, but I assure you that while I’m no fan of Luther, I have studied his life and works enough to make these assertions.
Thank you for the recommendation, I’ll be sure to check it out.
I’m sorry, I don’t know who Scott Hahn is, but the name might sound familiar.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
Keep hitting the books and come back.

Revelation from the Father is required.

Even Yochanan the immerser declared that no man can receive (grasp, comprehend or understand) anything unless
the Father grants it from heaven.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 25, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Rather Luther exposed the contradictions he saw clearly in the church he had been part of.
Likewise anyone before, during or after Luther, (even a little child), who reads the Bible and receives understanding from the Father in heaven.

I agree that some of what Luther argued was correct. There was quite a bit of corruption in the Church: I.e. selling indulgences.
I’m sorry I don’t understand the second part of your address. Could you please complete your sentence please? It seems like you may have mistakenly put the “and” or that you didn’t finish your thought.
Thank you

setst777 · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
If faith is not the gift and you attribute “not of yourselves” to grace that would mean Paul is teaching we cannot boast Grace is not of ourselves. Makes absolutely no sense as Ephesians 2 already explained God’s action of saving us through Christ.

I already responded to Ephesians 2:8-9 in the following post:
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches no such thing.
Ephesians 2:9 is referring back to "by grace are you saved" - the subject of the previous sentence in Ephesians 2:8.

"through faith" is the modifier.

If you think I am incorrect, you just find anywhere in Scripture where faith onto salvation is ever taught to be:

a work
a gift
the product of God's grace

Go to my post which clearly brings your error to light. No one was ever able to refute it.

Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Blessings

Thomas Cooper · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
Keep hitting the books and come back.

Thank you for addressing this post.

I will continue to study as you advise.

If you meant that condescendingly, please try to remain more respectful during discussion.

Thank you and God bless

redleghunter · Jan 25, 2019

Thomas Cooper said:
Thank you for the correction on Sola Fide, I thought for sure that what I had was the right term.
Thank you for questioning my sources, but I assure you that while I’m no fan of Luther, I have studied his life and works enough to make these assertions.
Thank you for the recommendation, I’ll be sure to check it out.
I’m sorry, I don’t know who Scott Hahn is, but the name might sound familiar.

Sola Fide or Justified by Faith alone, apart from works or solely was not invented by Luther. St John Chrysostom actually used the term often.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 25, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Revelation from the Father is required.

Even Yochanan the immerser declared that no man can receive (grasp, comprehend or understand) anything unless
the Father grants it from heaven.

Thank you, you’re absolutely correct!

And as Catholics we believe the Holy Spirit has guided the Church’s teachings and interpretations on sacred scripture since the Apostles founded her on Pentecost.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
Sola Fide or Justified by Faith alone, apart from works or solely was not invented by Luther. St John Chrysostom actually used the term often.

That’s very interesting, and I have never heard that. This surprises me, because I’ve considered myself to be a fan of St. Chrysostom. I’ll have to research that further. Thank you

setst777 · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
I see you slipped in there obedience before faith. How does one live obedient to Christ if they are not a new creation.

So my point stands. You are trying to interpret Romans 1-5 with Romans 6-8.

That’s not how Paul presents his dissertation and why chapters 1-5 come before the remainder of the epistle.

Your question:
"How one lives in obedience to Christ if they are not a new creation?"

The answer is that you can't. That is why you have to actually read Romans 8, where Paul describes the New Life in the Spirit by which you can live out Romans 6. Read it, then you will have your answer.

Thomas Cooper · Jan 25, 2019

If anyone has further questions or information to add to my posts, I’ll be happy to continue discussion tomorrow.
(It’s 11:00 PM where I am)
Good night all

redleghunter · Jan 25, 2019

setst777 said:
I already responded to Ephesians 2:8-9 in the following post:
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches no such thing.
Ephesians 2:9 is referring back to "by grace are you saved" - the subject of the previous sentence in Ephesians 2:8.

"through faith" is the modifier.

If you think I am incorrect, you just find anywhere in Scripture where faith onto salvation is ever taught to be:

a work

a gift

the product of God's grace

Go to my post which clearly brings your error to light. No one was ever able to refute it.

Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Blessings

Your point was faith is not a gift but Grace is.

I guess the question is where does this faith come from? Was it something inherent in us or something “excited” by the gift of Grace? Because remember God made we who were dead in our trespasses alive in Christ. So we are in a dead spiritual state God makes us alive in Christ and then Paul states we are saved by Grace through faith.

Righttruth · Jan 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Only those who endure to the end will be saved. No question of claiming salvation in advance in our life time

Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

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