Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Cis.jd said:

Varangian Christian and BNR32FAN have done a great job in showing the scriptural case so I don't think i need to copy what they did in this post.

The truth is we see the fallaciousness of Faith alone whenever we start debating against non-christians on any moral topic related to the God of the Bible or Christianity in general.

When an atheist, muslim, jew or anybody uses arguments to discredit christianity through examples of bad behaviors and actions that christians have done in history or in current events, the whole "faith alone" disappears and we will see reasons and various arguments as to why said examples of people aren't truly christian.

I've experimented this before in religion/science discussions around the web, and in my posts I used a lot of profanity while throwing personal insults (moron, idiot.. etc) at every atheist.. I would also talk about the girls i slept with, and how much i love doing this and watching inappropriate content. Again, this was just an experiment. Now, what happened was the "Faith Alone" Christians rebuked me, and told me how my actions showed I wasn't a true christian. Where did this "faith alone" go? Apparently, sticking to the faith alone in secular arguments would just confirm the negative view points that non-christians are pointing out in christianity which is why these "faith aloners" didn't see how their views just suddenly changed.

What the reformed people have to understand is that nobody rejects the power of faith. It is important even in a non-religious sense. Science even confirmed this, they just call it the placebo effect. You can also see the need of it in depressed people who have completely shut down due to not having anymore motivation or just faith that things are going to get better. So no doubt there is power in faith.

But in terms of salvation, faith alone is not only unscriptural it is completely illogical. It demonstrates what Christianity isn't supposed to be - a religion. Christianity was supposed to be a life style; the renewed relationship between God and man and relationships aren't a one man team.

It contradicts the "loving God" that we claim about Jesus when we believe in the "faith alone" because it indirectly shows that he doesn't care about morality, it's all just worshiping him that matters. So all these non-christian groups who go out to save animals, or save children from Human trafficking is all meaningless to him, because due to no faith they are still going to burn for eternity. There is just too many logic holes in this doctrine that it nearly contradicts many cases we defend about God when conversing with others.

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Thanks friend I praise The Lord for His guidance. I just hope I can plant some seeds and with the help of the Holy Spirit they will grow in their knowledge of the truth.

Danthemailman said:

The branches that bear fruit and abide/remain represent believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not abide/remain represent unbelievers (like Judas Iscariot). So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established. Christ was not yet glorified. (John 7:38-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

It's certainly a warning for those, who like Judas Iscariot, do not have a spiritual, vital connection with the vine. Was there anything mentioned in the Bible about any of the 11 remaining disciples bearing no fruit and failing to abide in the vine and ended up getting cut off? I didn't think so.

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I’m wondering what your thoughts are on this brother. I’m thinking maybe my post was too long and you might not’ve seen it.

Let’s take a look at what Paul says pertaining to this matter.

“even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:5-19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now these people are believers right? Paul undoubtedly says they are of God’s household. Look at what Paul says to these believers who are of God’s household or in other words children of God.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Is Paul saying to these Children of God that they cannot become sons of disobedience? Your saying these children of God are incapable of such behavior and Paul is clearly warning them not to engage in such behavior. Do you see the dilemma here? Clearly a child of God can in fact fall from grace and again become a son of disobedience otherwise Paul is warning the Ephesians about doing something he believed was impossible for them to do. John is actually saying a person is a child of God as long as they continue to live accordingly to God’s Word.

Yarddog said:

Faith is a work.

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Faith is as much a gift of grace and repentance, new birth and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Faith being a work that merits salvation is unknown in the New Testament. In the New Testament the focus is always on Christ and his work on the cross.

redleghunter said:

Judas just left and was not with them. The leading chapters make this clear.

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Yes I know I said that. Are you going to answer the question?

redleghunter said:

What the Nazi and Hitler was a believer “evidence?”

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James 2:20-24 is evidence, it even begins telling you it is evidence. However, you being a creative writer you either ignore them or instert whatever bizarre context you can think of, just like what you've been doing with BNR32FAN's references -- no matter how many times he has tried to simplify it.

The Nazi, referencing of Pastor/Priest scandals, the world population stats are all in the real life evidence to show you how illogical Justified by Faith Alone is because how can you disprove Adolf Eichmann as a christian; or determine who is a "truer" christian between you and Gilbert Deya?.. it also forces you to admit that God is incompetent because 90+% of his creation (in this current time alone) is going to hell.

BNR32FAN said:

But Judas is not here. Why would Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles about doing something that, according to the doctrine of eternal security, is impossible? That would be a useless message to warn them of doing something they can’t possibly do. Wouldn’t it?

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Judas was already a child of perdition when Jesus called him, he was never saved.

redleghunter said:

James 2 negates what Paul wrote. I think this has been hashed out plenty of times. Why don’t you provide the exegesis on James chapter 2 and we can take it from there.

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You see, just like i've said in post #316.

I knew you were going to ignore the second paragraph. No evidence, logic or reason is acknowledged here.

Danthemailman said:

No trickery or deceit on my part. I've been straightforward with you the whole time. Faith in Christ for salvation is trusting in Christ for salvation. Trusting 100% in Christ for salvation to be exact. Not hard to understand. Just hard for people who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT.

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Neither is it hard to understand you changed the issue as I explained in detail in my last post..

Thanks just the same.

redleghunter said:

I did. They needed an explanation on why not all 12 were there. They got it.

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I’m sure you don’t really believe that. Just think on it and pray for guidance and understanding.

redleghunter said:

That of a mustard seed.

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Actually, probably much less since it takes that amount of a mustard seed to move a mountain. Man, that stuff is powerful, kinda like nuclear energy's plutonium, a little goes a long way.

mark kennedy said:

Judas was already a child of perdition when Jesus called him, he was never saved.

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Yes I agree. He was stealing money from the treasury and John 6:64 says Jesus knew he didn’t believe.

mark kennedy said:

Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)
​

Faith is as much a gift of grace and repentance, new birth and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Faith being a work that merits salvation is unknown in the New Testament. In the New Testament the focus is always on Christ and his work on the cross.

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Who has said this? Many problems arise when people only see the surface but can't see beneath to the wonders hidden from their view.

redleghunter said:

The truth being that Grace is no longer Grace if we add to it.

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No grace without holding on to the truth. No wonder hypocrites want grace only to cover their unrighteousness!

redleghunter said:

What is your understanding of Faith alone?

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Counterfeit loved by unrighteous people

.

Cis.jd said:

James 2:20-24 is evidence, it even begins telling you it is evidence. However, you being a creative writer you either ignore them or instert whatever bizarre context you can think of, just like what you've been doing with BNR32FAN's references -- no matter how many times he has tried to simplify it.

The Nazi, referencing of Pastor/Priest scandals, the world population stats are all in the real life evidence to show you how illogical Justified by Faith Alone is because how can you disprove Adolf Eichmann as a christian; or determine who is a "truer" christian between you and Gilbert Deya?.. it also forces you to admit that God is incompetent because 90+% of his creation (in this current time alone) is going to hell.

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God is incompetent? I wouldn’t say that. Also the word “justified” in James 2:21 means shown to be right with God not made right with God. The word justified means both but in this case it can’t mean made right with God because we are not made right with God but works and this definition would be a direct contradiction of Romans 4:1-4