What is a Man? A Response to Gillette...

HosannaHM said:

Again I agree. Our bodies are not our own, they belong to the Lord and He designed that we take care of each other’s needs. We are not to deprive one another(1 Corinthians 7:4-5). In Ephesians, we get to see the model of the Christian relationship with the man being exhorted to “love his wife as Christ loved the church”. Such a challenging passage. Christ’s example isn’t domineering, but it is to lead. Leading and domineering are not the same thing.

Click to expand...

Paul's instructions to the man doesn't have anything to do with commanding him to lead the home, but is giving another example of Ephesians 5:21 to submit to one another in Christ Jesus. BOTH the husband and wife are to submit to one another and put the other's needs before his or her own. Paul also wasn't instructing people to set up their homes exactly like the *pagan* Greco Roman households of his day, but was using them as common examples of a household structure in which many were already living in order to help them to understand Christ. This whole passage...the "mystery" so to speak that is not really about husband and wife (as Paul states)...but is to help people who were recent converts from paganism to Christianity to understand Christ.

When we instead use the passage to try to enforce an unbalanced social system where one gender dominates over the other, as well as over children, and servants, we are misusing scripture to do harm to other people. We are switching the intended meaning by turning it all around backwards.

While God tolerated patriarchy (same as he tolerated Solomon having hundreds of wives and concubines) because of free will, he did not set up something so evil as patriarchy. Humans are perfectly capable of creating evil things all on our own, and God informed both the woman and man that it would happen as a result of their sin.

Both men and women were created in his image and both men and women were to be his stewards over creation. God created man and woman for companionship and relationship, like the Trinity is in relationship, and not for one to keep the other enslaved as a lesser being. The word "ezer" is used in other places in scripture to describe God in relationship to humans, and God is in no way a lesser being or enslaved to humankind.

Paidiske said:

By patriarchy I'm talking about the social structure we have which affords (some) men power, control, authority etc over everyone else. Historically it has excluded - and to some extent continues to exclude - women from education, employment, various social roles, cultural expression and so on; while confining women to the domestic sphere.

Click to expand...

So yes, we are talking about different things. Historically, we have come a long way from the type of society you are speaking of. Women are thriving in western civilization more than they ever have previously, and for the sake of equality that's a good thing. I'm for women's rights. I do think we are looking at this differently though. I respect what you are saying, but I have been speaking of the relationship between men and women in the home. If there was confusion there, I apologize because I just assumed we were talking about male/female roles in light of Christianity.

Paidiske said:

We have not yet finished dismantling patriarchy in that social sense.

Click to expand...

To what end? And what would you replace it with?

Paidiske said:

But I also don't believe that it's God's intention for men to lead the home. I believe it's God's intention for husband and wife to grow in unity of purpose and action, including sharing leadership.

Click to expand...

What scripture are you basing this belief on?

Paidiske said:

Equal but distinct stops being equal when it systematically disempowers one group.

Click to expand...

If viewed and practiced correctly, it doesn't disempower anyone.

Paidiske said:

Sure, you can explain away the evidence for women in leadership if you want to. Many people do. But for me it's part of a clear picture of how things change for women in Christ.

Click to expand...

I'm just interested in the truth. People can twist the scriptures to make them fit any position they like if they don't rightly divide the Word (comparing scripture with scripture). I'm not interested in explaining something away to be divisive, I'm interested in hearing God's take on the matter. In the end my opinion doesn't matter, but the truth does. Let God be true and every man a liar(Romans 3:4).

bekkilyn said:

Paul's instructions to the man doesn't have anything to do with commanding him to lead the home, but is giving another example of Ephesians 5:21 to submit to one another in Christ Jesus. BOTH the husband and wife are to submit to one another and put the other's needs before his or her own. Paul also wasn't instructing people to set up their homes exactly like the *pagan* Greco Roman households of his day, but was using them as common examples of a household structure in which many were already living in order to help them to understand Christ. This whole passage...the "mystery" so to speak that is not really about husband and wife (as Paul states)...but is to help people who were recent converts from paganism to Christianity to understand Christ.

Click to expand...

Hello bekki, you bring up a good point but I think the passage is teaching both ideas. There's a lot of wisdom packed in those few verses for husbands and wives. I will agree though that the central theme is about Christ and his love for the church. We should use that love as an example in our relationships as men/women.

bekkilyn said:

When we instead use the passage to try to enforce an unbalanced social system where one gender dominates over the other, as well as over children, and servants, we are misusing scripture to do harm to other people. We are switching the intended meaning by turning it all around backwards.

Click to expand...

Who's using this passage to dominate? I don't believe loving your wife as Christ loved the church would be domineering at all. Christ is the head of the church, just as the man is the head of woman (1 Corinthians 11:3). I think it harms people when we don't practice what we preach and we take scripture out of context. In other words, we should be diligent to live holy so that we love one another and be eager to understand God's Word.

bekkilyn said:

While God tolerated patriarchy (same as he tolerated Solomon having hundreds of wives and concubines) because of free will, he did not set up something so evil as patriarchy. Humans are perfectly capable of creating evil things all on our own, and God informed both the woman and man that it would happen as a result of their sin.

Click to expand...

Yes, people are sinful. I cannot defend the world's version of "patriarchy", I can only look to the biblical model for men and women laid out in scripture. This world is fallen and we eagerly await the restoration that Christ will bring when He comes back (Romans 8:22).

bekkilyn said:

Both men and women were created in his image and both men and women were to be his stewards over creation. God created man and woman for companionship and relationship, like the Trinity is in relationship, and not for one to keep the other enslaved as a lesser being. The word "ezer" is used in other places in scripture to describe God in relationship to humans, and God is in no way a lesser being or enslaved to humankind.

Click to expand...

Who said women were lesser beings? I don't want to enslave anyone. Helper doesn't mean slave. I agree with the rest of it. We are equals and both created to be stewards of creation and live to the glory of God. As I said earlier in the thread, men and women are equal but distinct.

HosannaHM said:

So yes, we are talking about different things. Historically, we have come a long way from the type of society you are speaking of. Women are thriving in western civilization more than they ever have previously, and for the sake of equality that's a good thing. I'm for women's rights. I do think we are looking at this differently though. I respect what you are saying, but I have been speaking of the relationship between men and women in the home. If there was confusion there, I apologize because I just assumed we were talking about male/female roles in light of Christianity.

Click to expand...

We haven't come a long way from that type of society at all. Women still face systemic disadvantage in almost every area of life. Yes, we've come a long way, but we're not there yet.

HosannaHM said:

To what end? And what would you replace it with?

Click to expand...

How about a world where the majority of children who don't receive any schooling aren't girls? How about a world where women are actually paid equally to men for the same work (I know, we're supposed to be, but too often it doesn't happen in practice)? How about a world where men and women share the domestic load more equally? And don't even get me started on the church...

HosannaHM said:

What scripture are you basing this belief on?

Click to expand...

All of the Scriptures which emphasise a marriage creating one flesh, the unity and mutuality of husband and wife, and so on.

HosannaHM said:

If viewed and practiced correctly, it doesn't disempower anyone.

Click to expand...

Well, that's not the reality far too many women actually live in.

HosannaHM said:

I'm just interested in the truth. People can twist the scriptures to make them fit any position they like if they don't rightly divide the Word (comparing scripture with scripture). I'm not interested in explaining something away to be divisive, I'm interested in hearing God's take on the matter. In the end my opinion doesn't matter, but the truth does. Let God be true and every man a liar(Romans 3:4).

Click to expand...

And, truth be told, I'm tired of having to make the same arguments over and over again just to establish that maybe - just maybe - God actually doesn't want women to be treated as inferior to men. Honestly, there's plenty of stuff out there on this, just a google away at your fingertips. Do you think maybe you could do a bit of reading without expecting me to do all the work for you?

HosannaHM said:

Hello bekki, you bring up a good point but I think the passage is teaching both ideas. There's a lot of wisdom packed in those few verses for husbands and wives. I will agree though that the central theme is about Christ and his love for the church. We should use that love as an example in our relationships as men/women.

Click to expand...

What Paul is teaching here is MUTUAL submission between husband and wife with Ephesians 5:21 as the topic sentence for the passages that follow. Pagan Greco Roman households were largely set up with a patriarch at the top who ruled (usually) his household with everyone else submitting to his will. Women, minor children, and slaves were property. The idea of a husband being *required* to love his wife was ludicrous, and wives were *already* submitting to their husbands because they were required to do so by law.

Paul asks the wives to submit to their husbands by choice and also asks the husbands to actually love their wives as Christ loves the church...basically subjecting himself to her. Paul's instructions to the wives and to the husbands are the same, but using terminology that reflects their current social structure. Ephesians 5:21 is the summarizing sentence for all Christian relationships, whether in the home or elsewhere.

Who's using this passage to dominate? I don't believe loving your wife as Christ loved the church would be domineering at all. Christ is the head of the church, just as the man is the head of woman (1 Corinthians 11:3). I think it harms people when we don't practice what we preach and we take scripture out of context. In other words, we should be diligent to live holy so that we love one another and be eager to understand God's Word.

Click to expand...

It's a mistranslation (and harmful) to use the word "head" here in the context of "leader" or someone being "over" someone else. That's not what 1 Corinthians 11:3 is all about, and certainly has nothing to do with any sort of household hierarchy.

In some cases, the Greek word "kephale" translated as "head" here can mean "point of origin" or "beginning". So Christ is the beginning or origin of the church and the man (or the Adam) is the source or beginning of the woman.

Yes, people are sinful. I cannot defend the world's version of "patriarchy", I can only look to the biblical model for men and women laid out in scripture. This world is fallen and we eagerly await the restoration that Christ will bring when He comes back (Romans 8:22).

Click to expand...

This so-called "biblical model" in Paul's letters was created by pagan Rome, and not at all what Paul was suggesting that we use as an ideal.

Who said women were lesser beings? I don't want to enslave anyone. Helper doesn't mean slave. I agree with the rest of it. We are equals and both created to be stewards of creation and live to the glory of God. As I said earlier in the thread, men and women are equal but distinct.

Click to expand...

You don't have to directly state that women are lesser beings, but when you put men and women into a hierarchical structure where men are over women, it is an *act* of making women lesser than men. You might look at the term "helper" as someone to share the tasks that God has given. If someone can't do something alone, then God may send someone to help, whether it be a woman, a man, an angel, or even himself. And maybe he's a helper to her as well since the word "Adam" also can be translated as "humankind" and not just as a "man". People were created to be in relationship as it is not good for us to be alone, and so we help each other and serve each other and love each other as Christ loved us.

Paidiske said:

And, truth be told, I'm tired of having to make the same arguments over and over again just to establish that maybe - just maybe - God actually doesn't want women to be treated as inferior to men. Honestly, there's plenty of stuff out there on this, just a google away at your fingertips. Do you think maybe you could do a bit of reading without expecting me to do all the work for you?

Click to expand...

Well I don’t want to go beyond what is it written, and I honestly was just trying to understand your position. I want us to reason from the scriptures. I have said repeatedly that women and men are equal but by the way you are answering me you would think I’m advocating for women to be enslaved and oppressed by the patriarchy. I don’t think women are less than men, but because I think they are different that is translating to inferior. I was just trying to understand, but I will stop asking you questions.

HosannaHM said:

I have said repeatedly that women and men are equal but by the way you are answering me you would think I’m advocating for women to be enslaved and oppressed by the patriarchy.

Click to expand...

Yes, you say women and men are equal... but then in practice you want to put women under men's control ("headship"). Or have I misunderstood your position?

Paidiske said:

Yes, you say women and men are equal... but then in practice you want to put women under men's control ("headship"). Or have I misunderstood your position?

Click to expand...

I suppose, but honestly I’m only applying it to the husband and the wife. And a biblical husband that seeks to love his wife like Christ loves the church will lead his family by serving.

HosannaHM said:

I suppose, but honestly I’m only applying it to the husband and the wife. And a biblical husband that seeks to love his wife like Christ loves the church will lead his family by serving.

Click to expand...

That doesn't change the fact that it diminishes and disempowers the wife, and leaves her vulnerable to what happens when he doesn't love his wife like Christ loves the Church. How many battered women have we seen being told to go back and submit to their husbands?

No. Enough. That is not God's vision for marriage.

Paidiske said:

That doesn't change the fact that it diminishes and disempowers the wife, and leaves her vulnerable to what happens when he doesn't love his wife like Christ loves the Church. How many battered women have we seen being told to go back and submit to their husbands?

No. Enough. That is not God's vision for marriage.

Click to expand...

I don’t like that situation either, but I can’t draw my conclusions solely based upon how I feel. I’m trying to stay close to the scriptures. Maybe we have a disagreement about the household, but we can mutually agree on hating the acts of sinful men that would dare treat a woman that way.

HosannaHM said:

I don’t like that situation either, but I can’t draw my conclusions solely based upon how I feel. I’m trying to stay close to the scriptures. Maybe we have a disagreement about the household, but we can mutually agree on hating the acts of sinful men that would dare treat a woman that way.

Click to expand...

Sure. But I think God calls us to go beyond hating the acts, to building households where it doesn't happen.

HosannaHM said:

I suppose, but honestly I’m only applying it to the husband and the wife. And a biblical husband that seeks to love his wife like Christ loves the church will lead his family by serving.

Click to expand...

You are correct. There is nothing wrong with headship or any form of leadership if you've chosen the right person. We've been discussing this on another thread.

Headship is not the same as leadership. Leadership is not imposed on others; they choose to cooperate with it willingly.

Paidiske said:

Headship is not the same as leadership. Leadership is not imposed on others; they choose to cooperate with it willingly.

Click to expand...

I am aware of the differences. And most people enter marriages of their own volition. I am wholly responsible for the choices I make. Including those that result in unpleasant experiences. I am not dismissing the other person's behavior. But I don't give myself a pass and put the blame in someone else's lap.

So, he hits you, it's somehow your fault?

I don't buy that line of argument.

Paidiske said:

So, he hits you, it's somehow your fault?
I don't buy that line of argument.

Click to expand...

I can't wrap my mind around dialogue like this. But I'll play along for the sake of the discussion. I have never been abused. Ever. Or had a man threaten to strike me. There are many reasons for that.

I have zero tolerance for disrespect. And I am a big stickler for breeding. I don't like men with tempers and I pay attention to that when we're getting acquainted. I loathe yelling and value people with self-control.

I take my time getting acquainted and I'm not led by my emotions. I sift and look for fit. I'm not looking for a hero, daddy, or validation. I'm looking for a complement. God's complement. And I'm not compromising my well-being to be someone's date, wife, or anything in between.

He's my partner. Not the plug for whatever is ailing me or that I didn't receive in my childhood. It's best to do a lot of soul searching and housekeeping before you marry. And check your internal script too. It has never happened and it will never happen.

You may have difficulty buying the notion of personal responsibility. But I'll let you in on a secret. I spoke about a year of demonic torment on the forum. And guess what? That's on me. I opened the doors. I made it possible. I own my stuff. All of it.

And good for you. But what I can't fathom is that, for all the women who don't have the - whatever - to be able to say the same, I refuse to blame them for their inexperience or lack of wisdom or sheer bad luck.

If someone hits someone else, the only person who should wear the responsibility for that is the person doing the hitting. Not the one hit. Not ever.

Paidiske said:

And good for you. But what I can't fathom is that, for all the women who don't have the - whatever - to be able to say the same, I refuse to blame them for their inexperience or lack of wisdom or sheer bad luck.

If someone hits someone else, the only person who should wear the responsibility for that is the person doing the hitting. Not the one hit. Not ever.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that you should blame them. But it's important we understand the things that motivate our choices so we don't repeat them. Empathy doesn't remove that. Women end up in another abusive relationship because of this.

Many women put their men on a pedestal. They become an idol of sorts. They may never tell you because of your position. But I've spoken to hundreds over the years. I've watched them turn over their finances, the children's inheritance, and their assets in the name of love. They see what they want to see.

I once had a confused person tell me he had to manage the assets. I reminded him one of us is retired and the other isn't. Since he hadn't figured how to leave the workforce I would continue to manage my finances. And I'm the one who worked in wealth management. You can't entertain foolishness. A lot of this comes out in the dating stage but women overlook it and assume he's kidding. In most cases he isn't.

As for the church, they don't always give the best advice. I believe in doing things that I can live with. Even if it ruffles feathers. They aren't walking out the reality of their advice. I am. ;-)

Speaking as if everyone could avoid domestic violence if only they were smart enough, blames the people who don't avoid it.

And sure, it's important we understand our motivations etc etc... but the reality is that many people don't. They don't deserve to be abused because of it.

And I agree that the church doesn't always give the best advice. That's part of why we need to have these conversations, so that we can correct some of the all-too-naive advice that gets bandied about.

Paidiske said:

Speaking as if everyone could avoid domestic violence if only they were smart enough, blames the people who don't avoid it.

And sure, it's important we understand our motivations etc etc... but the reality is that many people don't. They don't deserve to be abused because of it.

And I agree that the church doesn't always give the best advice. That's part of why we need to have these conversations, so that we can correct some of the all-too-naive advice that gets bandied about.

Click to expand...

I think you are misunderstanding my comments. I understand you have your own perspective based on your work and experiences. But I'm single and dealing with the dating scene. There are many victims in this space. That doesn't negate my remarks at all. I'm over 40 years old and I've raised a child on my own with the same story. I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not trying to sway you at all. Understanding why we behave as we do doesn't excuse the people who have harmed us. But it will help us to alleviate future occurrences.

A lot of this comes down to self-preservation. Mine is strong. I don't look for approval. That probably sounds cliche. But most predators are looking for a hole and they prey on women who are longing to fill it. There are a host of reasons why women end up in these situations and I've walked this out with someone at a young age and she wouldn't listen. His beating caused her to go into labor.

As with most things spiritual, knowing the root helps. You have to pull back the layers of the story to determine the why behind it all. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean headship with the right person is bad. But she needs to be right as well and I think that's what's missing in your comments.

You immediately jumped to abuse without considering that the other person may not be in the right frame of mind to enter a relationship of that nature. You can't give the other person authority if you're incapable of determining what healthy leadership looks like. You'll stumble every time.