Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

redleghunter said:

Only three people answered the OP.

You were not one.

Click to expand...

This was my address to the OP

BNR32FAN said:

While we are justified (made right with God) by faith, the Bible also teaches that if we live a sinful life in disobedience or fail to abide by not producing fruit our salvation will be lost. The Bible does not teach that once you are justified you cannot lose your salvation. Being justified just means you have a clean slate it doesn’t mean you can live any way you please and that slate remains clean.

Click to expand...

If you would like me to elaborate I would add that we are chosen by God to do good works. That’s what Jesus is explaining to His faithful apostles in John 15 and why He tells them to abide in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (Jesus) thrown away to wither then thrown into the fire to be burned.

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬

How many times did Jesus refer to trees that wither and die because they did not produce fruit?

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬

“The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:10‬

“Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening.

As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:13-14, 20-21‬

Here’s another example explained in a different way.

“"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:14-30‬

The wicked lazy servant was a servant of God who did not produce fruit or profit. Some will claim the lazy servant of the master was not a true believer but how does this example differ from John 15:1-8? Jesus gave His faithful 11 apostles the same example with the same consequences. This is why no one wants to address John 15 because they can’t explain it in the proper context without contradicting the doctrine of eternal security and salvation by faith without works. It’s not hard to understand that we are saved by the type of faith that produces works. Not by a faith that doesn’t produce works. It’s not the works that save us but the type of faith that saves us. This is what James was talking about in James 2:14-26. Notice verse 14

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

James mentions two types of faith in verses 14-26. There’s a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless or barren faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith.

Paul believed he was capable of losing His salvation.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭

Notice Paul includes himself by saying if WE deny Him He will deny US. Now I’m sure some will say if we are faithless He remains faithful means that we will still be saved if we lose our faith but nowhere does the Bible say that. If we are faithless Jesus is faithful to do what He said He would do to those without faith and to those who deny Him.

“"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:32-33‬

I challenge everyone here who advocates eternal security to explain John 15:1-10. Our beliefs cannot contradict any scripture otherwise it is a false belief.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

BNR32FAN said:

I challenge everyone here who advocates eternal security to explain John 15:1-10. Our beliefs cannot contradict any scripture otherwise it is a false belief.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Click to expand...

The OP is not about eternal security, but is about "faith and works." Why are you so obsessed with disproving eternal security? Greek scholar AT Robertson makes a valid point in regards to branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit in John 15:

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

*I noticed in John 15:2 that Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Danthemailman said:

How do you define "the law of the soul" and how does that bolded statement support salvation by works?

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation.

Click to expand...

My answer would be because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and He has paid the price for my sins in full.

What do you think about these verses?

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬

What reason does Jesus give for sending the goats to eternal punishment? Does He say they didn’t believe? No He said this

Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.

The goats didn’t abide and produce fruit. There’s nothing here that says the goats are tares among wheat. That’s only an assumption made by those who do not want to admit their doctrine of eternal security is incorrect. Which is why John 15 makes such a strong argument because there are no tares present.

Here’s another example

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬

There’s nothing here that says these people were not believers. Many people use Jesus’ sacrifice as an excuse to sin all they want by saying it’s ok Jesus paid for my sins. They do not repent of their sin and they will not enter heaven.

Varangian Christian said:

I think the only reason people have a hard time with it is because of 500+ years of animosity against Rome. What one believes many times is influenced by their subconscious bias ingrained in them by their culture and ancestors.

Also, I never understood how people who believe in faith alone could call others who believed in faith+works heretics. Believing in the importance of works doesn't strip someone of their faith, they aren't mutually exclusive. Its just like the people who believe in original sin but don't baptize babies, it seems to me the train of thought veered off the tracks at some point, lol.

Click to expand...

Genuine theology is faith and fruit. Counterfeit is faith alone

redleghunter said:

When we add anything of our merit to Grace it is no longer Grace.

Romans 11: NASB
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Click to expand...

Genuine theology is grace and truth. Counterfeit is grace alone

Danthemailman said:

The OP is not about eternal security, but is about "faith and works." Why are you so obsessed with disproving eternal security? Greek scholar AT Robertson makes a valid point in regards to branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit in John 15:

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

*I noticed in John 15:2 that Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Click to expand...

Jesus does say this:
John 15:
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

BNR32FAN said:

My answer would be because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and He has paid the price for my sins in full.

Click to expand...

If that's true, then why are you also relying on works to save you?

What do you think about these verses?

Click to expand...

Typical verses that works-salvationists try and use to support salvation by works.

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬

Click to expand...

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of God imputing righteousness to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a "manifestation" of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture or else you end up with salvation by works.

*Notice how practicing righteousness and love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status but not the cause of it: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

What reason does Jesus give for sending the goats to eternal punishment? Does He say they didn’t believe? No He said this

Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.

Click to expand...

This is descriptive of the goats, which is a manifestation of unbelief. Keep in mind that without faith it's impossible to please God. So what is the heart of the issue behind the status of the sheep and the goats? What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (did not do enough works? NO) but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he (has not done enough works? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The goats didn’t abide and produce fruit. There’s nothing here that says the goats are tares among wheat. That’s only an assumption made by those who do not want to admit their doctrine of eternal security is incorrect. Which is why John 15 makes such a strong argument because there are no tares present.

Click to expand...

The goats didn't abide and produce fruit because they are goats. *A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Only sheep abide and produce good fruit. The doctrine of eternal security of the believer is true. God does not forsake His saints...they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28) Jesus' sheep hear His voice...follow Him...He gives them eternal life...they shall never perish or be plucked from His hand. (John 10:27-29) Whom He predestined, He also called...justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Here’s another example

Click to expand...

Example of unbelievers.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬

Click to expand...

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the RCC, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. *Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin, which explains why Jesus referred to them as workers of iniquity. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. *These many people were not true converts.

There’s nothing here that says these people were not believers.

Click to expand...

Jesus NEVER knew these many people who were trusting in their works for salvation and they departed from Jesus described as "workers of iniquity," yet you are still suggesting that these many people may have been believers?

Many people use Jesus’ sacrifice as an excuse to sin all they want by saying it’s ok Jesus paid for my sins. They do not repent of their sin and they will not enter heaven.

Click to expand...

Typical straw man argument about sinning all we want. When we repent we change our mind and place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 20:21) and the fruit of repentance is that believers no longer practice sin but practice righteousness. (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20; 1 John 3:9-10)

Righttruth said:

Jesus does say this:
John 15:
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Click to expand...

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established.

Without that vital union/relationship with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached (cosmetic connection which bears no fruit), Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The branches that bear fruit and remain represent believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain represent unbelievers (like Judas Iscariot).

Varangian Christian said:

It basically does though...

Click to expand...

That's a common misconception, the context is salvation is by grace through faith. Salvation is not dependent on what we do or fail to do, it depends on what God has already done. The Calvinist isn't going to argue that you have no will, only that with regards to salvation the free exercise of free will is without any merit regarding salvation. Having your will changed is the work of God alone, you'll always get an argument from a Calvinist if you suggest otherwise, just how we are.

It means he needs to actually explain his views in a coherent manner. Right now I cant tell if he legitimately disagrees with me or if this is all just a misunderstanding.

Click to expand...

The whole reason I responded was because you two appeared to be arguing past one another. The issue in these threads on faith and works always neglect an important question, namely what are the works in question? Everything the believer does post conversion is a work of grace, the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit for example, are literally synonymous with grace. Now you may well do something that results in a special reward of some kind, a song no one else can sing, a name no one else can know, but these are as much a work of grace as being born again. Building up the body of Christ and taking on the whole armor of God are the work of God in the believers life, God is glorified by that, we should submit to the will of God by walking in the works God has prepared for us. But there is nothing we can take credit for, God alone will be glorified on the last day.

Just bear in mind, Calvinists are pretty strict on that point of doctrine. This is simply a doctrinal issue, you might want to take into consideration the sensibilities of the Calvinist along these lines.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Danthemailman said:

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

Click to expand...

It is not the question of being glorified after death. The chosen apostles had already become body of the Christ spiritually helping Him in His ministry on earth.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established.

Click to expand...

That should not affect our thinking of our responsibility to bear fruit. All the 12 apostles had received the authority to carry on with the tasks assigned by Jesus.

Without that vital union/relationship with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached (cosmetic connection which bears no fruit), Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Click to expand...

Right

BNR32FAN said:

If that is true then why don’t you post the full definition Strong’s provides instead of only the part that supports your position? Notice I posted the full definition not intending to leave anything out. Like I said before notice in pisteou the first 3 descriptions have a number 1 in front of them. That means that all three are parts of the primary definition. It’s not either or its all of them together that make up the full definition. This is why so many are misled because the words used in the English translations often do not encompass the full definition of the Greek word used in the scriptures.

believe


G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


Grammar:

from πίστις; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.



faith


G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


Grammar:

from πείθω; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Click to expand...

You've chosen to examine a word in the New Testament that has a number of different forms. I like this definition:

What I like about it is that it's not, 'mere credence', that's important. Persuasion, confidence and reliance all key to the concept of this word. It's not just intellectual ascent, it's really much more then that although in some forms and certain contexts it can be used in that way.

redleghunter said:

Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's not hard. Faith "alone" is just incorrect. Faith apart from "works of the law" is not faith alone. Faith without works of God's Spirit does not justify.

Yarddog said:

Yes, it's not hard. Faith "alone" is just incorrect. Faith apart from "works of the law" is not faith alone. Faith without works of God's Spirit does not justify.

Click to expand...

Imputed righteousness is salvation:

That is by faith alone, the context of this statement could not be any clearer.

redleghunter said:

So mostly good? Let’s test that with the high bar Jesus set at the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5: NASB
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect (NASB)

The standard for entry into the Kingdom of God is perfection as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Only Jesus Christ meets this standard. Right back to Romans chapter 5.

Click to expand...

Romans 5 is providing the groundwork, but does not explain the terms given there. Try reading the context given in Romans 6 through Romans 8. Then go back to Romans 5 and interpret in light of the context.

Blessings

Kenny'sID said:

I mean things that are mandatory other than proclaiming we have Faith... faith in action, not just saying it....that is true faith, that IS faith. Doing as Christ said to do is true faith/believing.

I have faith in Christ so I believe him when he says he will have my hide if I don't do as he says right there. How can I claim I have faith in Christ if I ignore/don't believe what he clearly tells me to do, and do it?

It's so clear to me, I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

Click to expand...

Correct. According to the Scriptures, in context, repentance to the Old Life as a slave to the flesh, and then commit to obedience to Christ and His Spirit is an integral aspect of faith - the New Life. If one claims faith in Christ, but does not listen to and follow Christ - if that person does not obey His commands - then his faith is dead, and so is not saved. I will quote the Scriptures if someone is unfamiliar with the New Testament.

redleghunter said:

I showed you the standard for our works to save is perfection.

I also stated only Christ meets that standard. Then showed you the Righteousness of God is a gift through Jesus Christ.

You never responded to those points. So the good you speak of is not good enough and never will be without having the righteousness of God through the Incarnate Divine Logos.

Click to expand...

Christ meets the perfect standard for those who, by faith, listen to and follow Him. These are the sheep that are granted eternal life.

mark kennedy said:

Imputed righteousness is salvation:

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (James 2:23)
​

That is by faith alone, the context of this statement could not be any clearer.

Click to expand...

Faith is a work.

Yarddog said:

Faith is a work.

Click to expand...

Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. *Notice the "distinction" between faith "and" works in Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc.. Faith is also not a work that merits salvation. Through faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

Handmaid for Jesus said:

AMEN! AGREE!

Click to expand...

Please provide a Scripture that teaches that faith unto salvation is a gift of God.

And do not think to quote Ephesians 2:8-9

Ephesians 2 (WEB) Bolding mine… 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

This particular Ephesians Scripture flatly declares that saving grace is “through faith (Eph 2:8).”

The portion of these verses that is a stumbling point is:

“ – and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.” (Eph 2:5)

Many are confused about what “this” is referring to that is the “gift of God, and not of works.”

Is “this” referring back to the “for it is by grace you have been saved”?

Or is “this” referring to ‘grace’ and “through faith”?

Or is “this” referring only to “through faith”?

Grammar indicates that:

• “For it is by grace you have been saved” is the subject
• “through faith” is the modifier of the subject, in that; “faith” is the agent by which ‘God’s grace onto salvation’ (subject) is received. “through” is the verb.

Since “by grace are you saved“ is the subject of the paragraph, then in the 2nd sentence (verse 9) “this” would seem to be referring back to the subject (“by grace are you saved“), and not the modifier of the subject (“through faith”) in the previous sentence. Calvinists argue that the whole previous sentence is referred to in “this.”

To undeniably prove or disprove if verse 9 is referring specifically to the “by grace are you saved” (the subject in verse 8) we have to search other Scriptures to see if any Scriptures ever teach that:

• faith is a product of God’s saving grace.
• faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a gift of God.
• faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a work.

Is faith onto salvation an act of God’s grace?

Scripturally, God’s saving grace and mercy are received only by faith just as we read from Scripture itself. Clear examples are: Ephesian 2:8; Romans 1:16-17; Romans 5:1-2. See also: Heb 11; John 3:14-18; 1 Pet 1:4-9.

Is faith unto salvation a gift?

No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God. Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” and “Romans 12:3-8.” However, these Scriptures are discussing the gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out specific gifts - to those already saved.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those of faith. This “Gift” of grace is righteousness, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17. Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Revelation 22:17
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Let’s review another Scripture. . .

Romans 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “gift of God” refers to “eternal life.” We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context. Examples were given.

Considering the evidence, we must conclude that the second sentence of Ephesians 2:8-9 “this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God – not of works” must be referring back to the subject “By grace are you saved,” which is the gift of God, not of works. This is what Scripture actually teaches in context.

Is Faith a Work?
Let’s go a step further, and show conclusively whether faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a “work” in Scripture.

Romans 3:27-28 (WEB) Bolding mine… 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 9:30-33 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense; and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.”

Galatians 2:15-16 (WEB) Bolding mine… 15 We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Clearly then, if we review the context of Scripture, faith is contrasted to, or the opposite of, works according to the inspired Word of God.

Scripture itself teaches us, then, that:
faith is not by God’s grace
faith is not God’s gift
faith is not a work

Rather, we gain access to the gift of saving grace (not by works) through faith in Christ Jesus - Romans 5:1-2.

So in Ephesians 2:9 we read as follows:

• “this is not of yourselves,
• it is the gift of God
• - not of works lest any man should boast”

It’s all referring back to the subject in Ephesians 2:8, which is:

“By grace are you have been saved” (the gift and work of God).

Why? . . . because

• Faith is not by grace.
• Faith is not a gift
• Faith is not a work.

Rather, Scripture only refers to:

• Salvation that is by God’s Grace.
• Salvation that is the Gift of God
• Salvation that is the work of God

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

*is receive by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
*is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
*The end result of your faith is your salvation (1Peter 1:9)

What about Ephesians 2:10?

Ephesians 2:10 (WEB) states: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit we receive by faith:

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Paul is not teaching a works salvation here; but rather, Paul is establishing that a Bible faith in Christ means we are now disciples of Christ, living by His Spirit. . . “19 Go, and make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19). We are dead to the old life and alive in Christ.

To be created in Christ is salvation, which is God’s regenerative work from sin and death – only in those who faithfully walk by God’s Spirit whom they receive by faith. As we saw by Scripture, God’s gift of saving grace is only accessed by faith. This begins the New Life in the Spirit. The end result of your faith is your salvation.