Maintaining One's Salvation Status

bcbsr · Jan 23, 2019

Maintaining One's Salvation Status

Many of the "Salvation by faith in works" Christian have proposed that one is "initially saved" by faith alone, but then must maintain their salvation status by living up to some standard of performance to be "finally saved", thus making salvation out to be contingent upon one's performance. Thus one's trust is in their own performance to "finally" saved them, which is salvation by faith in works.

But the point I wish to make and discuss is the inherent contradiction in terms of their initial premise - parsing "initial" salvation from "final" salvation. Can it be said that a person "has been saved" from going to hell if that fate is dependent upon his ongoing performance? No, logically it cannot be said.

One could logically say, based on their premise, that a person, having "believed" has the possibility of being saved, contingent upon whether he lives up to it, but under such a soteriology one cannot make the statement using the prefect tense -

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

Dave-W · Jan 23, 2019

I neither believe the Calvinist idea of predeterminiation of who is saved and who is not, or the baptist idea of once saved always saved. I also do not believe the “maintain your salvation by works” camp either.

God deals with us humans thru His covenants, and salvation is in the covenant. The closest thing we have in modern western society is marriage. You get married, it is your choice who, when and IF you get married. But the vow is “till death do us part.” Once married always married. BUT, sometimes that does not work out and we get divorced. It is supposed to last forever but someone can make bad choices that destroy the covenant. Similarly we can intentionally make bad choices that will eventually erode and destroy our covenant with God. We lose salvation.

But it has to be an intentional choice on our part to break it.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

There are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "Sin and Still Be Saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law). See post #4 below to learn more.

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. See post #5 to learn more.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

The Old Law is No More - The Law has changed:

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
(Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Here are the verses by Paul showing that he was fighting against Circumcision Salvation:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In other words, if a person says that they FIRST have to be circumcised to be saved, they are saying God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ by faith is no longer effective or required. They are not making Jesus the foundation of their faith, but they are making circumcision the foundation of their faith. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did against the Law and said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (i.e. Works Alone). This does not mean Paul was against the necessity of works of faith after a person was saved by God's grace (See Ephesians 2:10, Romans 8:13, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

Justification (i.e. To believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and or to accept Him as your Lord and Savior, and to confess your sins to Him) is not only an initial thing that a believer does when they first come to the Lord for salvation, but it is something that they continue to do. For no faithful believer stops continuing to believe in Jesus as their Savior. A person must continue to have faith in Jesus for salvation. But like Glorification (Which is another aspect of salvation), we also need Sanctification (holy living) as a part of the salvation process. Sanctification or works of faith are merely a showing of your faith (See James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God (Which is a gift) (Ephesians 2:8). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes it clear that we need two things as a part of salvation.

#1. Belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification (Holy living by the power of God working in us).

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
(2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Side Note:

Oh, and just in case you are wondering, "Glorification" is when a believer is taken home to be with the Lord.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

Paul is talking about "Works Alone Salvationism" or "Law Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace through faith) in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 6:14, Galatians 3:6, Galatians 3:10-14, and Titus 3:5. Paul is not referring to the necessity of "works of faith" (as a part of the salvation process) that come after we are saved by God's grace.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

These pieces of Scripture above here by Paul are plain and simple to understand. Only a person who is seeking to justify a sin and still be saved type belief will want to change what these parts of Scripture say.

eleos1954 · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
Maintaining One's Salvation Status

Many of the "Salvation by faith in works" Christian have proposed that one is "initially saved" by faith alone, but then must maintain their salvation status by living up to some standard of performance to be "finally saved", thus making salvation out to be contingent upon one's performance. Thus one's trust is in their own performance to "finally" saved them, which is salvation by faith in works.

But the point I wish to make and discuss is the inherent contradiction in terms of their initial premise - parsing "initial" salvation from "final" salvation. Can it be said that a person "has been saved" from going to hell if that fate is dependent upon his ongoing performance? No, logically it cannot be said.

One could logically say, based on their premise, that a person, having "believed" has the possibility of being saved, contingent upon whether he lives up to it, but under such a soteriology one cannot make the statement using the prefect tense -

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

If Christ is in us His good works become manifested and performed through the believer from the believer asking Him to come into their life and change them ... and He does this over the course of their lifetime. Because we love Him, we choose to listen to Him (obey) and follow Him, although we will mess up here and there ... and we repent, are forgiven and continue in Him.

Can a believer choose to not to follow Him ... of course ... can a believer choose not to repent ... of course ... can those decisions be permanent and cause one to lose their salvation? Of course.

Mark 13:13 You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

… also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10.

We are called to persevere, willfully (continue) in Him ... that's the "maintenance".

God Bless.

bcbsr · Jan 23, 2019

eleos1954 said:
If Christ is in us His good works become manifested and performed through the believer from the believer asking Him to come into their life and change them ... and He does this over the course of their lifetime. Because we love Him, we choose to listen to Him (obey) and follow Him, although we will mess up here and there ... and we repent, are forgiven and continue in Him.

Can a believer choose to not to follow Him ... of course ... can a believer choose not to repent ... of course ... can those decisions be permanent and cause one to lose their salvation? Of course.

Mark 13:13 You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

… also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10.

We are called to persevere, willfully (continue) in Him ... that's the "maintenance".

God Bless.

What you wrote is typical of how salvation by faith in works Christians misconstrue scripture by interpreting verses which are descriptive of the saved as if they were speaking of conditions to be saved.

Those who have been saved will endure to the end. Thus John evaluates those who don't endure in this way: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

And furthermore, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Thus while behavior identifies the saved, behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved.

eleos1954 · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
What you wrote is typical of how salvation by faith in works Christians misconstrue scripture by interpreting verses which are descriptive of the saved as if they were speaking of conditions to be saved.

Those who have been saved will endure to the end. Thus John evaluates those who don't endure in this way: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

And furthermore, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Thus while behavior identifies the saved, behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved.

It is Christ is working in the believer ... HIS works is causing the changes, the good works belong to Christ

Hebrews 13

20Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with every good thing to do His will. And may He accomplish in us what is pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

bcbsr · Jan 23, 2019

eleos1954 said:
It is Christ is working in the believer ... HIS works is causing the changes, the good works belong to Christ

Hebrews 13

20Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with every good thing to do His will. And may He accomplish in us what is pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

But as you had already said, works are contingent upon the person's own compliance, and thus if salvation is contingent upon works, it is contingent upon himself, which is salvation by faith in works.

If a person works in order to be saved, that's salvation by faith in works. His confident that he shall be saved in such a scenario is his belief in himself to maintain whatever arbitrary level of performance his particular denominational view demands he maintain in order to be saved.

Salvation by faith in Christ is quite a different thing. Those who trust in Christ to save them put no confidence in themselves to saved themselves by their performance, but rather put their confidence in Christ to save them. On the day of judgement the salvation by faith in works Christians will boast of their own works, but those who trust in Christ will defer to Christ to speak on their behalf.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
What you wrote is typical of how salvation by faith in works Christians misconstrue scripture by interpreting verses which are descriptive of the saved as if they were speaking of conditions to be saved.

Those who have been saved will endure to the end. Thus John evaluates those who don't endure in this way: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

1 John 2:19 is in reference to the false gnostic believers that thought they could sin and still be saved (because they thought sin did not exist or that it was an illusion - 1 John 1:8) and they were falsely claiming they knew the Lord and yet they did not keep his commandments, which made them out to be liars (1 John 2:4). John said he wrote what he did (in his epistle) in reference to those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). These were the gnostics who believed that sin did not exist for them, and it was not a reference to the disciples who stopped following Jesus in John 6:66. 1 John 2:19 was not meant to be a law or rule stating that all who are false believers start off that way. While this can be the case in some circumstances, this is not always the case because the Bible talks about how you can fall away (Which I will point out in my next post).

You said:
And furthermore, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Thus while behavior identifies the saved, behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved.

Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJV (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up). (Note: I am not denying that it can be in reference to habitual sin, but it is not exclusively referring to habitual sin but also singular or temporary sin, too.).

Again, the key to understanding 1 John 3:9 is realizing that this "does not commit sin" is in context to the gnostic belief who think sin does not exist or that sin is an illusion in some way (See 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:26). Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion. In other words, it is those who justify sin in some way who have not been born again spiritually and who have never seen or known Christ and He (the seed) does not abide in them. 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is talking about "willful sin" in Hebrews 10:26 in view or light of 1 John 1:8.

In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.

1 John 3:9 should read like this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [willfully, as if to justify it]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [willfully], because he is born of God."

1 John 3:6 should read like this:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not [willfully, seeking to justify their sin]: whosoever sinneth [as if to justify their sin] hath not seen him, neither known him."

This would be in view or light of applying the context of the false gnostic belief that John warned the brethren about in 1 John 1:8.

But what about people who used to believe in grace through faith + works of faith and then they went to a belief that they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus?

If such conversions were genuine, it is possible that Ezekiel 18:24 holds the key to understanding here.

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).

In other words, if a person sins, God forgets all their previous righteousness that they did; So God will forget them if they sin again and act like He never knew them if they turn to sin again and or seek to justify sin.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
What you wrote is typical of how salvation by faith in works Christians misconstrue scripture by interpreting verses which are descriptive of the saved as if they were speaking of conditions to be saved.

Those who have been saved will endure to the end. Thus John evaluates those who don't endure in this way: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

And furthermore, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Thus while behavior identifies the saved, behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved.

We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

bcbsr · Jan 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
1 John 2:19 is in reference to the false gnostic believers

Jason,

We've argued these points many times before. Your salvation by works interpretations are based on poor hermenuetics. Obviously since John says, "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us ", he was using this general principle, known as The Perseverance of the Saints, apply that general principle to specific people. But the general principle stands.

And much as you attempt to get around what 1John 3:6-10 says, I think anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can clearly see what it says.

As for other verses, what I already said stands unrefuted.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
But as you had already said, works are contingent upon the person's own compliance, and thus if salvation is contingent upon works, it is contingent upon himself, which is salvation by faith in works.

You have been so conditioned against good works playing a part in the salvation process, that you cannot see that the Bible does in fact teach that we are saved by works of faith after we are saved by God's grace. Paul never said that we can sin and still be saved and just have a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. You have to twist Scripture to make that kind of belief work.

Paul was clearly speaking against "Works ALONE Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace).

For what is better?

To do good works under God's grace or to do evil works?
Will God really accept us if we remain as a murder, or a inappropriate content star, or as a sorcerer, or as an abuser of children? Surely not. So if this is the case, then we can conclude that God does not make for an allowance for any kind of grievous sin (that He warns us in Scripture that can cause dire consequences to our soul in the after life).

You said:
If a person works in order to be saved, that's salvation by faith in works. His confident that he shall be saved in such a scenario is his belief in himself to maintain whatever arbitrary level of performance his particular denominational view demands he maintain in order to be saved.

*Sigh* It really is not all that common in Sola Scriptura churches to believe that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace). Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that finds it. Most of your Sola Scriptura churches believe as you do (that we are saved by God's grace through faith and works do not in any way play a part in our salvation - Which suggests that a person can sin and still be saved). There are maybe like a small handful of Sola Scriptura churches that believe in faith + works. Out of that small handful, I have found only 2-3 churches (and other select authors) who believe in faith + works who are not involved in other obvious errors. This fits the words of Jesus in the fact that He said narrow is the way, and FEW be there that finds it. Most in Christianity believe in OSAS or a Belief Alone type gospel.

You said:
Salvation by faith in Christ is quite a different thing. Those who trust in Christ to save them put no confidence in themselves to saved themselves by their performance, but rather put their confidence in Christ to save them. On the day of judgement the salvation by faith in works Christians will boast of their own works, but those who trust in Christ will defer to Christ to speak on their behalf.

George Sodini believed that, but he ended up killing a bunch of people and then he murdered himself afterwards. He wrote in his suicide letter that he would be saved despite doing these crimes because he had a belief on Jesus. This is the problem with your belief. It leads people to think the wrong thing about sin. They can easily think they can sin and still be saved and turn God's grace into a license for immorality. To learn more about George Sodini, check out this article link here:

George Sodini - OSAS Proponent who was a mass murderer and suicide victim.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
Jason,

We've argued these points many times before. Your salvation by works interpretations are based on poor hermenuetics. Obviously since John says, "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us ", he was using this general principle, known as The Perseverance of the Saints, apply that general principle to specific people. But the general principle stands.

And much as you attempt to get around what 1John 3:6-10 says, I think anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can clearly see what it says.

As for other verses, what I already said stands unrefuted.

No. John was warning the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." (1 John 2:26).

So you are ripping those verses out of context of John's epistle in who he was referring to.

bcbsr · Jan 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
we are saved by works of faith .

Jason, we've had these discussions before. You clearly portray yourself as being in the salvation by works camp, rejecting the gospel of grace. And much as I have consistently rebutted your position in the past and have clearly spoken of behavior as an effect rather than a cause of salvation, you continue to slander insisting that those who don't hold your position advocate the idea that one can continue to sin, whereas I have clearly shown that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And your reputation for continuing to do so speaks for itself.

eleos1954 · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
But as you had already said, works are contingent upon the person's own compliance, and thus if salvation is contingent upon works, it is contingent upon himself, which is salvation by faith in works.

If a person works in order to be saved, that's salvation by faith in works. His confident that he shall be saved in such a scenario is his belief in himself to maintain whatever arbitrary level of performance his particular denominational view demands he maintain in order to be saved.

Salvation by faith in Christ is quite a different thing. Those who trust in Christ to save them put no confidence in themselves to saved themselves by their performance, but rather put their confidence in Christ to save them. On the day of judgement the salvation by faith in works Christians will boast of their own works, but those who trust in Christ will defer to Christ to speak on their behalf.

If one is saved ... will they have good works? Yes ... where do the works come from .... from Christ working in the believer. His works .... not ours ... anything good within us is of Christ ... not us and we don't claim the works to be ours ... because they arn't.

True there are some denominations that believe otherwise ... I do not.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing ... but just a different way of saying it ... not sure.

Are you saying OSAS?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 23, 2019

bcbsr said:
Jason, we've had these discussions before. You clearly portray yourself as being in the salvation by works camp, rejecting the gospel of grace.

I don't reject the gospel of grace according to the Bible. Just in a recent thread, I corrected a new poster who denied that we are initially and ultimately saved by faith in Jesus Christ. He denied Justification as being a part of salvation (Which is wrong). For without Jesus, there would be no hope for salvation. We cannot erase our own sins. But after being forgiven, we are not given a license to sin under God's grace. Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality. How on Earth you interpret that verse and many others, I have no idea; But I imagine much of the Bible, you have to do gymnastic flips in your reading of it. Take for example the verses that warn us about how sin can separate us from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 John 3:15) (Revelation 21:8).

You said:
And much as I have consistently rebutted your position

No, you haven't. You have not given any adequate answers to the many verses that I have proposed that has demolished OSAS.

You said:
in the past and have clearly spoken of behavior as an effect rather than a cause of salvation, you continue to slander insisting that those who don't hold your position advocate the idea that one can continue to sin, whereas I have clearly shown that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And your reputation for continuing to do so speaks for itself.

It's not false slander. There are many men who believe as you do who turned out to be like a George Sodini. Your burying your head in the sand to such people does not help to prove your case. Also, I have not run into many OSAS proponents who do not believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. I have only encountered like 1-2 OSAS proponents who believe that you cannot sin and still be saved (and they actually meant it). So they are a very, very, very small minority. Let me ask you a few questions.

Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

#1. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

#2. Proverbs 6:32 says whosoever commits adultery destroys his own soul.

#3. Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be a Bible defined adulterer.

#4. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only take one act of murder to be a Bible defined murderer.

Do you believe that Christians can overcome grievous sin in this life?
Most I have talked with say that you cannot stop sinning this side of Heaven.

Do you believe a Christian can commit a grievous sin like lusting after a woman and or lying and then die in that sin (without getting a chance to confess of that sin to the Lord) and yet they would still be saved?

How is a little bit of grievous sin any different than say committing a lot of sin?

Does that mean we can sometimes murder or sometimes steal and still be saved while doing so? This is yet again the problem with your kind of belief. It makes room or an allowance for sin. For when you say that a believer is not saved by any works, than that gives them the green light to sin. Sure, you may quote verses that a believer is changed, but that does not work because I have already quoted verses that talk about how we have to endure in our faith as a part of salvation. Yet, you don't want to hear it.

bcbsr · Jan 23, 2019

eleos1954 said:
If one is saved

The point of my OP is that statement itself implies you believe in eternal security. For what is one saved from but eternal condemnation. If one is saved from a future event, then that implies that nothing in the future can change that status. Which is kind of what Romans 8 likewise says, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And that's the point of Romans 8 - Eternal Security (much as Jason will chime in his objection) and not only do future events not change one's status, but the individual themselves (being a part of all creation) cannot change it.

Maintaining One's Salvation Status

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