Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

redleghunter said:

When we add anything of our merit to Grace it is no longer Grace.

Romans 11: NASB
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

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Doing works does not add merit to grace. Doing works is abiding in Christ and adhering to the guidance of the Holy Spirit (walking in the Spirit). What good is it to have the indwelling Holy Spirit if a person ignore’s His guidance? Ignoring the Holy Spirit renders Him utterly useless and of no benefit.

Varangian Christian said:

Salvation Is Indeed By Grace
As I said, 500+ years in rivalry with Rome has messed up western Christianity.

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I agree the reformation was a most unfortunate event as a result of Rome’s corruption at that time. It’s a real shame that not many knew about the Orthodox Church who also refuted Rome on many doctrines and practices.

redleghunter said:

It hasn’t been pretty. But the Reformation was a course correction long overdue. And it should not stop there, meaning reform. In fact the call is Semper Reformda always reforming.

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It was a course correction but it was still in error teaching in contradiction to the apostolic Church of God which is the Orthodox Church. The teachings and practices that were being refuted were Roman not Orthodox. The Roman church had been excommunicated over 400 years before the reformation. People were just misled by Rome’s claim of still being the apostolic Church of God.

BNR32FAN said:

While we are justified (made right with God) by faith, the Bible also teaches that if we live a sinful life in disobedience or fail to abide by not producing fruit our salvation will be lost. The Bible does not teach that once you are justified you cannot lose your salvation. Being justified just means you have a clean slate it doesn’t mean you can live any way you please and that slate remains clean.

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I think you have misunderstood what the scriptures teach.1) Salvation is a supernatural gift from our Heavenly Father. You don't save yourself, God performs it all by Himself . 2)Once you receive that precious gift, God DOES NOT TAKE IT BACK.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.(KJV)

Romans 11:29
for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.(NIV)

redleghunter said:

Does God’s Grace stop at Justification?

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God’s grace does not remove free will. We must work in compliance and submission with God and according to His will to remain justified. The branch can still be cut off after being grafted in. John 15:1-8 & Romans 11:17-22.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

I think you have misunderstood what the scriptures teach.1) Salvation is a supernatural gift from our Heavenly Father. You don't save yourself, God performs it all by Himself . 2)Once you receive that precious gift, God DOES NOT TAKE IT BACK.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.(KJV)

Romans 11:29
for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

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The gift is the Holy Spirit which we are sealed with but Romans 11:17-22 also says the branches that are grafted in can be cut off. John 15:1-8 also reinforces this.

Lukaris said:

St. Paul also testified to Agrippa in Acts of the Apostles 26:19-20.

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I agree, I think it is easier than we realize, and because so many denominations have demonized "works" because of the perception that so many rely on them for salvation, we have skewed our own ability to see something that is very easy to see. So here is my short and I think accurate description of faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Faith without works is dead.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

When we put these three verses together we can see that we have to A. hear the Word of God B. act on what we hear. Because, hearing is not seen but is required, the works become the evidence of what we heard.

We hear and we do.
We hear and we obey.
We hear and we act.
We hear and we stand in expectation based on what we heard.

Ironically, the entire NT faith message is a repeat of the foundation of the Jewish belief system, i.e., shema. Shema is the word for "hear" (as in, Hear O Israel). However, any Hebrew student who has been at it longer than a year or so can tell you that shema isn't only "hear," it is "hear and do" or "hear and act" or "hear and obey." God doesn't change, so we should expect to see faith, grace, and law from Genesis through Revelation.

Ken Rank said:

I agree, I think it is easier than we realize, and because so many denominations have demonized "works" because of the perception that so many rely on them for salvation, we have skewed our own ability to see something that is very easy to see. So here is my short and I think accurate description.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Faith without works is dead.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

When we put these three verses together we can see that we have to A. hear the Word of God B. act on what we hear. Because, hearing is not seen but is required, the works become the evidence of what we heard.

We hear and we do.
We hear and we obey.
We hear and we act.
We hear and we stand in expectation based on what we heard.

Ironically, all the NT faith message is, is a repeat of the foundation of the Jewish belief system, shema. Shema is the word for "hear" (as in, Hear O Israel). Any Hebrew student who has been at it longer than a year or so can tell you that shema isn't only "hear," it is "hear and do" or "hear and act" or "hear and obey." God doesn't change, so we should expect to see faith, grace, and law from Genesis through Revelation.

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John 10:27 comes to mind. My sheep hear My voice I know them and they follow me. So many want to jump straight to verse 28 without considering what verse 27 implies.

Many misunderstand verses like
John 6:37 which implies a continuing cooperative submission to God’s will. The word come and comes in John 6:37 are two different Greek words. Come (G2240) is your standard definition but comes (G2064) is only used in the present tense or continuous tense.


“All that the Father gives Me will come (G2240) to Me, and the one who comes (G2064) to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

John 6:37 NASB

Come

G2240

Lemma:

ἥκω

Transliteration:

hḗkō

Description:

1) to have come, have arrived, be present


2) metaph. a) to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly) b) to come upon one, of things endured


Comes/Cometh

G2064

Lemma:

ἔρχομαι

Transliteration:

érchomai

Description:


1) to come a) of persons


1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning


2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public


2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto


3) to go, to follow one



Grammar:


middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) or (active) which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.


Notice in bold letters used only in the present and imperfect tenses. This means it is used only in the present or continuous tense. So this doesn’t mean anyone who has ever came I will certainly not cast out it means anyone who presently comes I will certainly not cast out

Danthemailman said:

I suppose you interpret James 2:24 to mean that man is "saved by works" in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc). James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against the state of a righteousness man.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

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James 2:14 however shows that faith without works is not a saving faith. I do completely agree with your understanding of verse 24. That is definitely James’s message.

BNR32FAN said:

James 2:14 however shows that faith without works is not a saving faith. I do completely agree with your understanding of verse 24. That is definitely James’s message.

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Yes, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Varangian Christian said:

I see you like Luther. Read this:
Did Luther Get It Wrong? Most Major Contemporary Pauline Scholars Say “Yes”

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I was waiting for E.P. Sanders to make an appearance. To fair, Sanders is a lot more nuanced than this article would have you believe. Luther's ideas regarding the Law are not new at all. From John Chrysostom's Homily VII on Romans (Rom3:24-25 specifically):

Ver. 24, 25. “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness.”4
See by how many proofs he makes good what was said. First, from the worthiness of the person, for it is not a man who doeth these things, that He should be too weak for it, but God all-powerful. For it is to God, he says, that the righteousness belongs. Again, from the Law and the Prophets. For you need not be afraid at hearing the “without the Law,” inasmuch as the Law itself approves this. Thirdly, from the sacrifices under the old dispensation. For it was on this ground that he said, “In His blood,” to call to their minds those sheep and calves. For if the sacrifices of things without reason, he means, cleared from sin, much more would this blood. And he does not say barely λυτρώσεως, but ἀπολυτρώσεως, entire redemption, to show that we should come no more into such slavery. And for this same reason he calls it a propitiation, to show that if the type had such force, much more would the reality display the same. But to show again that it was no novel thing or recent, he says, “fore-ordained” (Auth. Version marg.); and by saying God “fore-ordained,” and showing that the good deed is the Father’s, he showeth it to be the Son’s also. For the Father “fore-ordained,” but Christ in His own blood wrought the whole aright.
“To declare His righteousness.” What is declaring of righteousness? Like the declaring of His riches, not only for Him to be rich Himself, but also to make others rich, or of life, not only that He is Himself living, but also that He makes the dead to live; and of His power, not only that He is Himself powerful, but also that He makes the feeble powerful. So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He doth also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores (κατασαπέντας) of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is “declaring,” that he has added, “That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God, for it is a blessing in two ways; because it is easy, and also open to all men. And be not abashed and shamefaced. For if He Himself openly declareth (ἐνδείκνυται) Himself to do so, and He, so to say, findeth a delight and a pride therein, how comest thou to be dejected and to hide thy face at what thy Master glorieth in? Now then after raising his hearers, expectations by saying that what had taken place was a declaring of the righteousness of God, he next by fear urges him on that is tardy and remissful about coming; by speaking as follows:
“On account of the relaxing of sins that were before.” Do you see how often he keeps reminding them of their transgressions? Before, he did it by saying, “through the Law is the knowledge of sin;” and after by saying, “that all have sinned,” but here in yet stronger language. For he does not say for the sins, but, “for the relaxing,” that is, the deadness. For there was no longer any hope of recovering health, but as the paralyzed body needed the hand from above, so doth the soul which hath been deadened. And what is indeed worse, a thing which he sets down as a charge, and points out that it is a greater accusation. Now what is this? That the last state was incurred in the forbearance of God. For you cannot plead, he means, that you have not enjoyed much forbearance and goodness. But the words “at this time” are those of one who is pointing out the greatness of the power (Sav. forbearance) and love toward man. For after we had given all over, (he would say,) and it were time to sentence us, and the evils were waxed great and the sins were in their full, then He displayed His own power, that thou mightest learn how great is the abundancy of righteousness with Him. For this, had it taken place at the beginning, would not have had so wonderful and unusual an appearance as now, when every sort of cure was found unavailing.


John Chrysostom. (1889). Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. In P. Schaff (Ed.), J. B. Morris, W. H. Simcox, & G. B. Stevens (Trans.), Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans (Vol. 11, pp. 377–378). New York: Christian Literature Company.

Thanks for the tag. I'm afraid I am not free to enter into actual debate and disagreement - my SF has suggested this is for me more risk of pride and lack of love than of any benefit to myself. That's one reason I usually avoid GT.

I am happy to share some info though that I think seems pertinent.

In my understanding - there simply is no question anymore of "faith vs works". Everything was given to the Apostles and understood in the early Church. They had both the letter to the Ephesians and the teaching of St. James and saw no contradiction.

Part of the problem is the way words are used. Most Protestants see "salvation" as a moment-in-time "done deal" ... we believe in that moment too, and call it "conversion". Conversion absolutely places one in Christ and forgives sins, and from the time of the early Church it was immediate baptism.

But most of what we read in the epistles is written to people who are living their lives in the faith, which is what we all must persevere and do.

An excerpt from St. Mark of Ephesus' homily explains it well, I think. This is from a longer homily.

St. Mark teaches:

Remission is given in three forms and at different times: (1) during Baptism; (2) after Baptism, through ... sorrow and making up (for sins) by good works in the present life; and (3) after death, ... [this is not the topic of this post but please remember one sin "will not be forgiven either in this life nor in the age to come" ... Scripture does mention forgiveness after death - italics mine]

Thus, the first remission of sins is not at all bound up with labor; it is common to all and equal in honor, like the pouring out of light and the beholding of the sun and the changes of the seasons of the year, for this grace alone and of us is asked nothing else but faith. But the second remission is painful, as for one who “every night washes his bed, and with tears waters his couch” (Ps. 6:5), for whom even the traces of the blows of sin are painful, who goes weeping and with contrite face and emulates the conversion of the Ninevites and the humility of Manasses, upon which there was mercy. The third remission is also painful, for it is bound up with repentance and a conscience that is contrite and suffers from insufficiency of good; ... Moreover, in the first and last remission of sins the grace of God has the larger part, with the cooperation of prayer, and very little is brought in by us. The middle remission, on the other hand, has little from grace, while the greater part is owing to our labor. The first remission of sins ... is a remission of all sins in an equal degree, ...



From First Homily of St. Mark of Ephesus On Prayer for the Dead and Against the Roman Catholic Purgatory

(Also I removed parts that were mostly addressing why we disagree with Purgatorial punishment, as it might have just further confused the issue.

Quite simply - we are converted and all our sins are forgiven. But it is then our duty to cooperate with the grace of God and become like Christ, if we expect to enjoy God's presence in eternity - and "works" ... i.e. how we live our lives in imitation of Christ ... is how we do this.

Does anyone really believe that a person could profess belief, then go on living like the devil himself, and die and enjoy bliss in the presence of God? I don't think many would really say that is possible.

Mostly it's just legal wrangling over words and points, and I'm not interested. But how we live matters to who we become, and who we become (like Christ or like a demon) influences how we will spend eternity.

God be with you all.

Varangian Christian said:

None of those contradict what the Church has taught since the beginning. Please read the link i gave you and provide a counter argument to the Orthodox view.
Salvation Is Indeed By Grace

Also i bet you guys would give great insight. Cant let this turn into a RC/Prot fight: @ArmyMatt @~Anastasia~



Oh yea, definitely agreed.

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The real issue is the the works doctrine says Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

Varangian Christian said:

Cant let this turn into a RC/Prot fight:

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It mostly IS a Latin Catholic/Protestant fight. Such an issue never existed in the East.

Catholicism introduced some things, the reformers objected - both moved to their opposing corners. Everyone probably has good motives at heart. But it can obscure understanding the truth.

Danthemailman said:

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

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And that "believes in him" doesn't include doing as he says, like, you know...being good? You're making this stuff up as you go along.

Again, does believing in Jesus include doing as he clearly says we must do? It either does or it doesn't. No long winded, tricky posts that in this case conveniently leaves out what "believing" actually entails will change that.

Danthemailman said:

Where do you see the words "loss of salvation" in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous (not the righteous) will not inherit the kingdom of God?

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Why do I have to see it? It's pure common sense that if one is unrighteous they have loss their salvation.

I put it that way for the "Christians" that have decided they can do as they like and still get to heaven, and that have found some twisted way to convince themselves that doesn't apply to them. The scripture there covers everyone....simple.

Danthemailman said:

I suppose you interpret James 2:24 to mean that man is "saved by works"

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Nothing to interpret, the meaning is simple, and it disagrees with the following post....my whole point.

redleghunter said:

I am making the point the NT does not support works meriting our Justification.

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See how that contrasts with this?

James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

You'll need to read the full posts and who I'm replying to for context, otherwise you may misunderstand. And twist that as you surely will, it remains simple biblical truth.

Kenny'sID said:

And that "believes in him" doesn't include doing as he says, like, you know...being good? You're making this stuff up as you go along.

Again, does believing in Jesus include doing as he clearly says we must do? It either does or it doesn't. No long winded, tricky posts that in this case conveniently leaves out what "believing" actually entails will change that.

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Believing in salvation includes faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus for salvation. Doing as He says after we have been saved through faith is works. We must not confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works).

redleghunter said:

You just established your own contradiction. When in fact James is saying what I am saying in the OP. We do according to what we believe in.

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I established just what I said I did, that in contradiction to what you stated, works justifies us as well as faith. Seriously, look at the verse again, that is exactly what it says. Here:

James 2:24
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

That's a dead to rights contradiction to what your OP is saying, but I can't force you to see it. This is where things get bizarre, do you see how you are doing all you can not to accept that very simple and straightforward scripture? And if you aren't going to accept the clear truth the bible teaches, I can't help you because that's all I have to go by.