How one is saved.....

Just_a_Christian

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Yes, of course. But trusting in Christ to save you, to be your Saviour, is no more a work than trusting in a surgeon to fix your heart-valve malfunction is a work. You trust, but the surgeon does all the work. Likewise, we trust in Christ but he does all the saving work.



Yes, right.



Nope. You are doing more than expressing faith, trust, in Christ when you are baptized, believing it contributes to your salvation. Now Christ alone is not your Saviour but Christ plus you getting baptized. Christ plus anything in order to be saved is not the Gospel.



I already addressed this verse and explained with Scripture that it in no way requires that one understand Ananias to be speaking of physical water baptism.



Yes!! This is exactly what you are doing - whatever denials you might offer.



Yes, it is. Which is why works play no part in one's salvation. Christ doesn't need your works to save you. Nothing you can do will ever make his atoning work at Calvary any more perfect, any more complete, than it already is. What Christ did on the cross needs no contribution of good works from us.



Yes, you should do such things for your neighbor but they are the natural result of being indwelt by God's Spirit and of loving those God loves, not the means of maintaining one's salvation.



No, the shed blood of Christ does that.

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


1 John 1:7
7 ...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,




No, it doesn't. Your excerpt from 1 Peter 3:21 is out context and does not make the case for you that you think it does.



As I've explained, you're not considering them carefully in coming to your conclusions.



And in many places in Scripture that describe how to be saved, baptism is not mentioned at all. An odd thing, if it is essential to salvation. We always read of faith, or belief in Christ in those passages that speak of how to be saved, but baptism in only a few. And then there's Paul remark:

1 Corinthians 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...


How is it possible to preach the Gospel which is, of course, for the purpose of saving souls, and yet neglect baptism if, as you say, it is vital to salvation? Paul seems to be making a distinction between the Gospel and baptism, separating them rather than uniting them, as you seem to think is necessary.



The whole counsel of Scripture. In particular those verses that rule out works as part of salvation.



You left out the part that excludes works as part of how one is saved. Convenient. Here's how the verse finishes: "...not of works, lest any man should boast."



Doing what God says results in works; you can't obey God and not end up doing good works. So separating obeying God and works as though they aren't inter-related is specious at best. You are essentially setting Scripture against itself and deflecting doing so by a facile "I'm not in a position to question the Almighty." No, you aren't in a position to question the Almighty. But you are in a position to better understand and handle His word than you are doing.



Yes, baptism is a work. You have to enact baptism, to do it - unlike simply receiving salvation by faith as Scripture says saves a person.



Ananias doesn't say which baptism he means. But other Scripture that I offered to you help us to understand that water baptism is just a symbol, a figure, of the spiritual baptism by the Spirit by which a person is actually saved.



Absolutely wrong. Spiritual regeneration happens as a consequence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, not by water baptism. I already gave you some verses that make this clear. Here are some more:

Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


Paul says not a single word in the entire eighth chapter about baptism having anything at all to do with spiritual regeneration. But he goes on at length about how the Spirit quickens, or makes alive spiritually, all those who are saved. Along with the verses I already gave you about the Spirit "baptizing" people into Christ, what Paul writes above makes it very clear that water baptism is merely a symbolic ritual, illustrating what the Holy Spirit has done in giving a second spiritual birth to a person. For more on this see also Romans 6.



I am not questioning God, I am questioning your understanding of His word which I've shown is faulty.

From the mouth of the Savior, the author of etermal life: And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:15-16
It means what it says, sorry you are unable to accept it
 
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setst777

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Nope. You are doing more than expressing faith, trust, in Christ when you are baptized, believing it contributes to your salvation. Now Christ alone is not your Saviour but Christ plus you getting baptized. Christ plus anything in order to be saved is not the Gospel.

Hi. I agree with most of your post, although I believe that "Just a Christian" actually believes the same although both of you are articulating differently in writing. Actually, I wish you would explain your understanding to him a little better. I think that would resolve apparent, but not actual, discrepancies.

However, the main issue I have with your response is in your quote in the above box of this post.

To follow Christ's command to be baptized is not a work; rather, by submitting to Christ's command to be baptized, we are outwardly showing that our faith is in Christ - that we now live for Him, which includes following His commands - one of which is to be baptized.

Christ's other commands to those who believe in Him are: to listen to and follow Him;
to deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Him;
to love others as Christ loved us.
etc.

A person who says they believe in Jesus; yet, they refuse to obey His command, shows His faith in not genuine, that he has not truly submitted his life to Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

Jesus was baptized, so not only did Jesus command it, but He set an example that His disciples are to follow. And we see in the Book of Acts, that being baptized was a command of Jesus that the Apostles certainly practiced and followed for all new converts.

1 John 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

I agree with you though that baptism itself does not wash our sins away, but rather the public confession of our faith before God and others, which baptism represents.

Blessings
 
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aiki

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From the mouth of the Savior, the author of etermal life: And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:15-16
It means what it says, sorry you are unable to accept it

But I do accept it. What I don't accept is your interpretation of it.
 
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aiki

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Hi. I agree with most of your post, although I believe that "Just a Christian" actually believes the same although both of you are articulating differently in writing.

Hello.

It may be that JustaChristian and I are closer in understanding than we think. The more JustaChristian explains his views, however, the less likely I believe this is.

To follow Christ's command to be baptized is not a work; rather, by submitting to Christ's command to be baptized, we are outwardly showing that our faith is in Christ - that we now live for Him, which includes following His commands - one of which is to be baptized.

As I understand it, the expression of our faith in a particular corresponding deed is a work. This is how the apostle James, for instance, understood the term "work."

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


Inasmuch as baptism is a deed we perform in correspondence to, or in manifestation of, what we believe, it is, as far as James is concerned, a work. I agree.

A person who says they believe in Jesus; yet, they refuse to obey His command, shows His faith in not genuine, that he has not truly submitted his life to Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

Yes, right. But while good works evidence our faith, evidence the genuineness of our salvation, they don't secure our salvation. To think that they do is to hold to works-salvation.

Jesus was baptized, so not only did Jesus command it, but He set an example that His disciples are to follow. And we see in the Book of Acts, that being baptized was a command of Jesus that the Apostles certainly practiced and followed for all new converts.

Baptism is certainly very important for the new believer. It ought to be the very first opportunity for a believer to manifest his faith in a work which is why, I believe, in the NT it happened immediately upon a person's confession of faith in Christ. It also symbolizes the believer's union with Christ, by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5), in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-6).

I agree with you though that baptism itself does not wash our sins away, but rather the public confession of our faith before God and others, which baptism represents.

:ok:
 
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setst777

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You write:
<<

As I understand it, the expression of our faith in a particular corresponding deed is a work. This is how the apostle James, for instance, understood the term "work."

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
>>

My Response:

The Apostle James is correct, and is exactly what I see "Just a Christian" keep repeating. Yet, it is not works that save you, but rather the faith in Christ by which we submit our lives to Christ. The works of such faith, shows are faith is genuine, because we are following Christ.

Do you believe the Book of James to be inspired Scripture?

You write
<<

Inasmuch as baptism is a deed we perform in correspondence to, or in manifestation of, what we believe it is, as far as James is concerned, a work. I agree.

Yes, right. But while good works evidence our faith, evidence the genuineness of our salvation, they don't secure our salvation. To think that they do is to hold to works-salvation.
>>

My response:
If you refuse to obey Christ, then is your faith genuine? And if you faith is not genuine, then is that not a dead faith according to James. Therefore, if faith is not demonstrated by works (following Christ's commands), if your faith is dead, are you saved?

1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them.
This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

You write:
<<

Baptism is certainly very important for the new believer. It ought to be the very first opportunity for a believer to manifest his faith in a work which is why, I believe, in the NT it happened immediately upon a person's confession of faith in Christ. It also symbolizes the believer's union with Christ, by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5), in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-6).
>>

My response:
Why is baptism important?

Is not baptism important simply because Lord Jesus commanded it?

If you claim to be in Christ, yet refuse to obey His command, are you really saved at all?

1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them.
This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

So, if we believe in Christ, then we follow His commands. This is the faith that secures our salvation.
 
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aiki

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The Apostle James is correct, and is exactly what I see "Just a Christian" keep repeating. Yet, it is not works that save you, but rather the faith in Christ by which we submit our lives to Christ. The works of such faith, shows are faith is genuine, because we are following Christ.

I don't have a problem with the idea that works demonstrate our faith. I don't think this is what JustaChristian is contending for, however. He seems to think that if one does not obey God's commands and perform good works, one cannot be saved. But this is to make one's works integral to salvation and thus to hold to a works-based Gospel. As I said to JustaChristian, an apple tree is an apple tree even when it isn't producing apples.

Do you believe the Book of James to be inspired Scripture?

Yes.

If you refuse to obey Christ, then is your faith genuine?

Why would a person trust in Christ as their Saviour and Lord and then refuse to obey his commands? Such a person is, at least as far as I'm concerned, quite obviously unsaved. This isn't to say, though, that every person who claims to be saved but sins is not actually saved. Perfect obedience is not required in order to be God's child.

Therefore, if faith is not demonstrated by works (following Christ's commands), if your faith is dead, are you saved?

If there are no works, no manifestation of the indwelling Spirit, at all, then it is reasonable to say the Spirit is not indwelling. But every Christian struggles with sin - and sometimes yields to it - as they walk each day with God into greater sanctification and fellowship with Him. Such a struggle - and yielding to sin - does not mean a believer was never saved or has lost their salvation.

While good works are the inevitable consequence of a saving faith, they are not a necessary consequence of it. That is, works do not secure one's salvation but only reveal it.

Is not baptism important simply because Lord Jesus commanded it?

It doesn't follow that if baptism is important for reasons x and y, it is not, therefore, important for reason z.

If you claim to be in Christ, yet refuse to obey His command, are you really saved at all?

If you refuse to obey any and all commands, yes.
 
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setst777

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According to God's word:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16

Hi Christian,

Baptism is certainly a command of our Lord Jesus, isn't it?

We know that Salvation is by faith in Christ Jesus.

And we know that Faith without obedience to our rightful Lord and Savior is a dead faith. In other words, Salvation is never, ever void of transformed life from slavery to sin to living out one’s faith in obedience to Christ Jesus and His Spirit that indwells those who believe.

Romans 16 (NIV) Bolding mine… 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

John 10 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

Obedience to Christ's command to be Baptized

So... If our faith is genuine, then following Christ's command to be baptized is essential. For who would claim to believe in Christ Jesus as our only Lord and Savior, yet refuse to obey Him in the simple command to be baptized?

Following Christ's command to be baptized is not burdensome. Water is plentiful. If one who claims to believe in Christ, and yet refuses to follow Christ's command to be baptized, then such person does not have the faith necessary to be saved.

Luke 6 (WEB)
46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and don’t do the things which I say?

John 14 (WEB)
21 One who has my commandments, and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”

1 John 2 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

A person who claims to believe in Jesus cannot separate his faith from obedience to Christ Jesus as essential for salvation...

Hebrews 5
8
Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Living in obedience to Christ by faith is the opposite of works.

I see two types of professing Christians who claim to be saved. Can you guess which one is actually saved?

The one who lives by works says in his heart; “Yes, I believe in Jesus and the Gospel, but I was taught that obedience to Christ is not essential, because that would be a work. So, I see no reason why I can’t continue to devote my time and energy to gain all the blessings this life on earth offers me in fulfilling the desires of the flesh. So, yes, I know I am a sinner, but God loves me anyway. But I will show God how much I appreciate Him for saving me by doing at least some good works – ‘fruits.’ Surely the Lord will see my faith. I believe Jesus died for my sins, because I am bearing fruits of my faith. And isn’t that the real proof of my election onto salvation? I don't have to obey any command of Christ that I don't want to because that would be works. I know the Lord will save me anyway.

The one who lives by a Bible faith says in his heart; “Yes Lord, I heard your invitation – the Gospel. I have counted the cost – my entire life, which is to deny myself, take up my cross and follow you into a new life of love and obedience to you as my true Lord. By faith in you as my rightful Lord and Master I gladly repent of slaving for my flesh for the purpose of fulfilling its desires. With your help, I daily crucify my life as a slave of the sinful nature that bound me to obedience to selfish ambition, and now devote my entire life to You, just as you devote your entire life to me. My faith is in you, and by this faith I know that you have come to live in me by your Spirit. My life is now yours – to listen to and follow You into a New Life of Love, living by Your Spirit who empowers me every day of my life as I continue in the faith expressed in obedience to you, my rightful Lord.”

As you contemplate these two types of professing ‘Christians,’ consider how Jesus explains a true faith in the following Parables:

Matthew 13 (WEB) 44 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.
45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

The Apostle Paul described a true faith as follows:

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

And the proper worship of any one who claims faith in Christ must do likewise...

Romans 12 (NIV) Bolding mine… 1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God — this is your true and proper worship.
 
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setst777

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I don't have a problem with the idea that works demonstrate our faith.

You write:
I don't think this is what JustaChristian is contending for, however. He seems to think that if one does not obey God's commands and perform good works, one cannot be saved. But this is to make one's works integral to salvation and thus to hold to a works-based Gospel. As I said to JustaChristian, an apple tree is an apple tree even when it isn't producing apples.

My Response:
From reading all his posts, I am thinking JustaChristian is saying that, since obedience is an integral aspect of faith, that obedience (the works Christ commands of His followers) is integral to salvation.

John 10
27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

You write:
While good works are the inevitable consequence of a saving faith, they are not a necessary consequence of it. That is, works do not secure one's salvation but only reveal it.

My reply:
I agree. Attempting to achieve salvation through works cannot save. However, "Baptism" is not merely good works, but rather a direct command of Christ to His followers. Do you see the difference?

A direct command by Christ is not some undefinable work that that Christians do that we cannot fully assess. A direct command of Lord Jesus is essential to follow if one is really saved. If Lord Jesus commanded it, then He thought it was essential.

I had written:
<<

Is not baptism important simply because Lord Jesus commanded it?
>>

You responded:
It doesn't follow that if baptism is important for reasons x and y, it is not, therefore, important for reason z.

My reply:
I disagree. Is that the kind of logic you would tell your boss when he orders you to do a job, or is following the order essential to keep your job? : ) ... Likewise, Baptism is certainly important because Lord Jesus commanded it. And if Lord Jesus commanded Baptism, then such command is essential for those who claim to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

I had written:
If you claim to be in Christ, yet refuse to obey His command, are you really saved at all?

You responded:
If you refuse to obey any and all commands, yes.

My reply:
Are you saying you can pick and choose which commands of Jesus you want to follow? Or are you saying that you must obey any and all commands of Christ as a faithful Christian?

1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them.
This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

So, if we believe in Christ, then we follow His commands. This is the faith that secures our salvation.
 
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aiki

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From reading all his posts, I am thinking JustaChristian is saying that, since obedience is an integral aspect of faith, that obedience (the works Christ commands of His followers) is integral to salvation.

Yes, exactly. And this is why I say he is espousing works-salvation - against the plain denial of Scripture. Works are integral to living out one's salvation, but they are not integral to obtaining or retaining it.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?


It seems very evident to me here, that Paul thought the Corinthians were saved - he called them brethren and described them as being in Christ - even though they were not living in obedience to God.

Attempting to achieve salvation through works cannot save. However, "Baptism" is not merely good works, but rather a direct command of Christ to His followers. Do you see the difference?

It is a distinction without a difference, as far as I can see. It does not alter the fact that baptism is a work because it is commanded of Christians by Christ directly. This just makes baptism very important, not salvific, nor something other than a work.

A direct command of Lord Jesus is essential to follow if one is really saved.

Very true. But not to one's salvation.

I disagree. Is that the kind of logic you would tell your boss when he orders you to do a job, or is following the order essential to keep your job? : ) ... Likewise, Baptism is certainly important because Lord Jesus commanded it. And if Lord Jesus commanded Baptism, then such command is essential for those who claim to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

I don't think you understood my point. You had asked if baptism wasn't important simply because it was commanded of Christ. It is, of course, but my not saying so doesn't mean that I thought it wasn't. My pointing out other important features of baptism didn't mean I thought that Christ's command to be baptized was unimportant. Hence, my comment about x,y and z.

Are you saying you can pick and choose which commands of Jesus you want to follow? Or are you saying that you must obey any and all commands of Christ as a faithful Christian?

I'm saying no one obeys God perfectly. But one who disobeys God at every turn, who refuses to obey Him at all, is not, I think, actually saved.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.

If you look at the sinners prayers as repetitive words that a person is repeating without intent, then of course that does not save them. They're words, not a magic spell ---- BUT, if they say the sinners prayer (or anything similar) while really meaning the words and dedicated themselves to Christ, then they are saved and one of the family.

Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. - John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.

Yes, a sinner can pray him/her self to heaven and salvation. Otherwise how could some repent and be saved on their deathbeds after a life of regret? And remember that those alive in Christ are dead to sin already, so they would not be termed as sinners in this way. John 9:31 is saying that - when referring to sinners, I read as unbelievers and unrepentant sinners. but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. "Does his will" is a natural result of faith after becoming a Christian and growing as one. There is not a strict, legalistic timeline for this. You can be saved minutes before death, so clearly those in question wouldn't have racked up years of obedience in those five minutes. Does this make them less saved?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation?

Possibly the most important point to realize for anyone is that few are saved; few find the narrow painful self-sacrificial road to LIFE (JESUS).
And many remain on the wide road to destruction.
Most all the world refuses to repent of serving demons every day.

Thus, TRUTH, is hard to find - it requires all ones heart and mind and strength to find and get and keep what JESUS says to find and get and keep.

DAILY.

As JESUS SAYS, whoever ENDURES TO THE END, will be saved.

Perspective ? As in the days of NOAH, when only 8 out of the whole world were saved.
 
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Just_a_Christian

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- BUT, if they say the sinners prayer (or anything similar) while really meaning the words and dedicated themselves to Christ, then they are saved and one of the family.
Is that from the Bible, if so plesse provide proof text.

Yes, a sinner can pray him/her self to heaven and salvation. Otherwise how could some repent and be saved on their deathbeds after a life of regret?
Once again is this from the Bible, if so please provide proof text...concerning deathbed confession too


And remember that those alive in Christ are dead to sin already, so they would not be termed as sinners in this way.
Yes, I realize most of the epistles are written to those who are in Christ. If those saved are in Christ, does the Bible tell us how to get into Christ? Proof text??


but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. "Does his will" is a natural result of faith after becoming a Christian and growing as one. There is not a strict, legalistic timeline for this. You can be saved minutes before death, so clearly those in question wouldn't have racked up years of obedience in those five minutes. Does this make them less saved?
I do not agrree that it is a "natural result" of believing in God/Christ.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. - James 2:19
We also have scripture of those who believe and do great works in His name and yet they were condemned.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -
Matthew 7:21-23
The previous two scripture show clearly that faith alone, in the 1st and faith + works in the 2nd did not save. Salvation clearly must be on God's terms. How does one come to be in that state of being "saved"? The Bible is our only source to know but we must be willing to go by it's guidelines, not man's ideas of what he thinks is right.
I have no doubt that a person can live the majority of their life and be saved before they die but just because they're near the end doesn't mean they aren't required to come to God on His terms. That, we all must do.
In Him
 
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JCFantasy23

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Is that from the Bible, if so plesse provide proof text.

Accepting Christ into your heart to become a believer is completely biblical. My point with my post was that it is not the sinner's prayer words that saves, but if a person really means it when they say they believe and are coming to God. I didn't say the sinner's prayer either, it's not required, faith is what is required. It's the intent in the heart of the person.
 
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Just_a_Christian

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Accepting Christ into your heart to become a believer is completely biblical. My point with my post was that it is not the sinner's prayer words that saves, but if a person really means it when they say they believe and are coming to God. I didn't say the sinner's prayer either, it's not required, faith is what is required. It's the intent in the heart of the person.
I'm not trying to be rude, I tell you the truth, but that is in no way consistent with the teaching of my KJV, NKJV or NET Bibles. The sinners prayer is only consistent with the watered down salvations taught by numerous churches / preachers today.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. - Hebrews 11:6
Of course it is impossible to please God without faith but fsith is not where or when one is saved. If God is a rewarder of those diligently seek Him that implies He will punish those who don't. Does one need diligence to have faith? No. It does however require diligence to know how to please Him.
In Him
 
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Ahiah1

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In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation? Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. -
The Bible says what the Bible says, regardless of what anyone believes. Sure, there are prophetic areas of the Bible where I may be right in the interpretation or you may be or we both may be wrong, but I submit to you that anything pertaining to salvation is straight forward requiring zero interpretation. Would God want us to be saved and not tell us how to be saved? Would God be a just God by requiring this for salvation from one person and something different from another thus making it impossible to know? Not according to the Word of God. For those who will argue the "sinner prayer" i have but one more verse for ponderance.

Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
- John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.
In Him

Well in order to be saved we have to take on the name Jesus Christ and by doing that we have to apply Acts 2:38 to our lives, Which is repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. But it does not end there, we have to soak ourselves in the holiness and righteousness of GOD with the fruits of the spirit ( Galatians 5) which we are to indulge ourselves in every day and we are to abstain from the works of the flesh on a daily basis so that we can enter the kingdom of God and that is true salvation

Acts 4:10-12 KJV
[10] Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. [11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Tecarta Bible
 
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RCrihfield

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In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation? Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. -
The Bible says what the Bible says, regardless of what anyone believes. Sure, there are prophetic areas of the Bible where I may be right in the interpretation or you may be or we both may be wrong, but I submit to you that anything pertaining to salvation is straight forward requiring zero interpretation. Would God want us to be saved and not tell us how to be saved? Would God be a just God by requiring this for salvation from one person and something different from another thus making it impossible to know? Not according to the Word of God. For those who will argue the "sinner prayer" i have but one more verse for ponderance.

Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
- John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.
In Him

The churches of Christ would tell you to hear the word, believe it, repent of your sins, confess Jesus to be the son of God and be baptized in water (immersed) and they would be correct.

Some would say it is by grace, not of yourself but the gift of God and not by works (our own effort) and they would be right.

Salvation is the destination for the completed life. I have fought the good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith and because of that I will receive the crown of life. Salvation is "worked out" personally. But in the end it is by grace because we don't deserve it....no not one!

If you don't work you can't be saved. But your works will not save you. Riddle me that.
 
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setst777

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The churches of Christ would tell you to hear the word, believe it, repent of your sins, confess Jesus to be the son of God and be baptized in water (immersed) and they would be correct.

Some would say it is by grace, not of yourself but the gift of God and not by works (our own effort) and they would be right.

Salvation is the destination for the completed life. I have fought the good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith and because of that I will receive the crown of life. Salvation is "worked out" personally. But in the end it is by grace because we don't deserve it....no not one!

If you don't work you can't be saved. But your works will not save you. Riddle me that.

It comes down to how faith is defined in the New Testament.

Works, as Paul taught, is when we attempt earn salvation by good works, obeying the Law.

Faith, which includes repentance, is a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life, which is the new life in Christ Jesus. Faith, therefore, is opposite of works.

Paul explains the difference between faith and works in the following:

Galatians 2:15-20 (WEB) 15 “We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law. 17 But if while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a law-breaker. 19 For I, through the law, died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

That is the difference between works and faith.
  • Works, as Paul teaches here, does not change our sinful nature, and so doing works accomplishes nothing to our salvation.
  • By faith, we have repented, and so are crucified with Christ. We are now living by faith in Lord Jesus unto a sanctified life of righteousness as slaves of Lord Jesus - that is the new life in Christ Jesus.
  • Baptism represents that commitment to die to the old life, and now live a new life of following Lord Jesus (Romans 6)
So we are not saved by works. The new life of salvation is only possible by faith.

This teaching of Paul is nothing new, since he teaches the same thing to all the Churches he wrote to.

Romans 6:15-18 (WEB)
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Therefore, Christ’s perfection is ours by faith – living sanctified lives onto righteousness. That is the new life.

That new life is not guaranteed unless the Christian continues in the same faith that he had when receiving the Holy Spirit – a repentant and obedient faith, following Lord Jesus.

John 15:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain (abide) in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain (abide) in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain (abide) in his love.

Blessings
 
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Neostarwcc

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There are two things required for salvation: 1. Faith, 2. Repentance. It is impossible to truly come to Christ without those two things. However that being said, you do not save yourselves. God does all of the salvation work from when before you first were born until your last breath on earth.
 
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