Greek Septuagint and the Textus Receptus : Hebrew Masoretic

JohnB445 said:

There is a big debate over which line of manuscripts the Apostles used.

Some say Septuagint, and others say the Masoretic Text.

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In many (but not all) cases it's very clearly the Septuagint, because (1) the exact same Greek words are used, in the same order; and (2) where they differ, the Septuagint is being followed.

Sometimes the Masoretic Text is being followed, though, and sometimes it looks like a combination of the two.

JohnB445 said:

Does the difference affect doctrine or anything major?

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No.

JohnB445 said:

Thanks, I remember from your previous post you recommend the ESV.

What do you think about the HCSB,CSB, NASB, AMP, and NKJV in comparison? I was not sure which one I should get when I was looking for my first Bible. the HCSB and CSB seemed good, but since it was relatively new and I saw many others using the ESV I just got the ESV instead as my first Bible.

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• I still think the ESV is the most accurate.
• The HCSB has essentially been replaced by the CSB.
• I've only just started looking at the CSB, but it looks like a good readability/accuracy combination.
• I used to read the NASB a lot, but I found the ESV much better
• The AMP adds to the Bible, and I really hate that
• I used to read the NKJV a lot too, but it shares the flaws of the KJV

Let me copy this (from another thread):

Let's look at a random passage (Ephesians 2:4-7) with a literal translation:

ὁ δὲ θεὸς (ho de theos = but God) πλούσιος ὢν ἐν ἐλέει (plousios ōn en eleei = being rich in mercy), διὰ τὴν πολλὴν ἀγάπην αὐτοῦ ἣν ἠγάπησεν ἡμᾶς (dia tēn pollēn agapēn autou hēn ēgapēsen hēmas = through/because of the great love with which he loved us), καὶ ὄντας ἡμᾶς νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν (kai ontas hēmas nekrous tois paraptōmasin = even though we are being dead by/through the sins) συνεζωοποίησεν τῷ Χριστῷ (synezōopoiēsen tō Christō = made-us-alive-with Christ) χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (parenthesis: chariti este sesōsmenoi = by grace you have been saved) καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (kai synēgeiren kai synekathisen en tois epouraniois en Christō Iēsou = and raised-up-with and seated-together-with in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus), ἵνα ἐνδείξηται (hina endeixētai = so that he might show [subjunctive]) ἐν τοῖς αἰῶσιν τοῖς ἐπερχομένοις (en tois aiōsin tois eperchomenois = in the coming ages) τὸ ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ (to hyperballon ploutos tēs charitos autou = the surpassing riches of his grace) ἐν χρηστότητι ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (en chrēstotēti eph’ hēmas en Christō Iēsou = in kindness to/upon us in Christ Jesus).

ESV (pretty much perfect): But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

WEB (almost as good, but a bit clumsy in places, reflecting the fact that the Biblical scholarship involved with the WEB was of lesser quality than the ESV): But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;

KJV (archaic, and mistranslates "together with" and "seated with"): But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

NKJV (a modernised KJV, but still mistranslates "together with" and "seated with"): But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

CSB (almost perfect, and with small changes in word order for improved readability): But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

NIV (almost perfect, and with small changes in word order for improved readability): But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

NLT (a very loose translation): But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

NASB (almost exactly the same as the ESV): But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

JohnB445 said:

Is there an English translation of the Septuagint?

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There are several. I use this one online (the old translation by Brenton): Septuagint Old Testament Bilingual (Greek / English) - 1

JohnB445 said:

Thanks, I have been looking for one.

As for footnotes in the ESV do you find them to be more helpful or distracting?

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In many cases, they need to be treated as part of the text, I think (certainly for in-depth study purposes). There are cases where there are differences in the Greek texts, and it's not 100% certain which is correct, and there the footnote gives you the other option.

And there are cases whether the Greek itself can have two meanings, and the footnote gives you the other possible translation.

For a first read-through, I can see that you might skip footnotes.

JohnB445 said:

The reason I added cross-references is because I have only been reading the Bible for a couple months so I probably won't have much use out of the cross-references until I read through a lot.

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Cross-references are very important for OT quotes in the NT. It's often very informative to look up the context of an OT quote.

For example, think about Luke 2:24: and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons”.

That's from Leviticus 12:

12 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed. 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean for two weeks, as in her menstruation. And she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days.

6 “‘And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtle-dove for a sin offering, 7 and he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female. 8 And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtle-doves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.’”

So the quote is telling us that (1) Joseph and Mary were exactly following the law for the 40th day Temple ceremony, and (2) that they were so poor that they couldn't afford a lamb.

JohnB445 said:

Do you know where I can find one for the NT?

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The name "Septuagint" refers to the Greek version of the Old Testament (just as the Masoretic Text is the Hebrew version of the Old Testament).

There is no such thing as a NT Septuagint.

JohnB445 said:

I have only been reading the Bible for a couple months so I probably won't have much use out of the cross-references until I read through a lot.

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By the way, I hope that you are starting with the New Testament.

JohnB445 said:

But now I think I should start with Matthew, then read it like the book has it layed out.

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Good plan.

JohnB445 said:

Does the difference affect doctrine or anything major?

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Acts 15

Saint James quoted Amos 9:11-12 from the LXX, the M text reading does not justify the gentile mission

Erik Nelson said:

Acts 15

Saint James quoted Amos 9:11-12 from the LXX, the M text reading does not justify the gentile mission

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That's an interesting example:

Acts of the Apostles 15:16-18: 'After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,'
says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.

Amos 9:11-12 (MT): 'In that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations who are called by my name,'
declares the Lord who does this.

Amos 9:11-12 (LXX): 'In that day I will raise up
the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and will rebuild the ruins of it,
and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down,
and will build it up as in the ancient days,
that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek [me],'
saith the Lord who does all these things.

Looking at the NT Greek for the last part, it is very close to the LXX, but not 100% exact. Close enough to call it a quote, though.

Acts of the Apostles 15:17-18: ὅπως ἂν ἐκζητήσωσιν οἱ κατάλοιποι τῶν ἀνθρώπων τὸν κύριον, καὶ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη ἐφ’ οὓς ἐπικέκληται τὸ ὄνομά μου ἐπ’ αὐτούς, λέγει κύριος ποιῶν ταῦτα γνωστὰ ἀπ’ αἰῶνος.

Amos 9:12 (LXX): ὅπως ἐκζητήσωσιν οἱ κατάλοιποι τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἐφ᾿ οὓς ἐπικέκληται τὸ ὄνομά μου ἐπ᾿ αὐτούς, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὁ ποιῶν πάντα ταῦτα

JohnB445 said:

There is a big debate over which line of manuscripts the Apostles used.

Some say Septuagint, and others say the Masoretic Text.

Which did the Church fathers prefer to use, and what really is the difference between the two?

Does the difference affect doctrine or anything major?

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When comparing how the NT authors quoted the OT it seems they favored the LXX, most quotes being taken word for word from the LXX

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

LXX De 32:4 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him;

{The MT omits this quote}

1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

LXX Hos 13:14 I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy penalty, O death? O Hades, where is thy sting? comfort is hidden from mine eyes.

(MT) I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Heb 10:37-38 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

LXX Hab 2:3-4 For the vision is yet for a time, and it shall shoot forth at the end, and not in vain: though he should tarry, wait for him; for he will surely come, and will not tarry. If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith.

(MT) For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

bcbsr said:

When comparing how the NT authors quoted the OT it seems they favored the LXX, most quotes being taken word for word from the LXX

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Mostly the LXX, yes, but not always.

But if it's "word for word," you can only prove that by quoting the actual Greek.

bcbsr said:

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

LXX De 32:4 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him;

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Hebrews 1:6: ... καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.

Deuteronomy 32:43 (LXX): ... καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες υἱοὶ θεοῦ

Hebrews 1:6 has "angels of God," the LXX has "sons of God." Is that a quote?

bcbsr said:

1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

LXX Hos 13:14 I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy penalty, O death? O Hades, where is thy sting? comfort is hidden from mine eyes.

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1 Corinthians 15:55: ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος; ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον;

Hosea 13:14: ... ποῦ ἡ δίκη σου θάνατε ποῦ τὸ κέντρον σου

Similar wording, but not a quote.