The great misconception of the kingdom of God

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 20, 2019

There is a great misconception of the kingdom of God that was promised to come to the earth. Not the kingdom that believers have entered into though which they receive eternal life. But the manifestation of that kingdom on earth, prophesied throughout scripture. The misconception of it is so overwhelming that the prophecies that definitively say when it would come have to be twisted, tortured and ignored because people do not see what they have imagined it will look like. Zachariah, John the Baptist's father prophesied what it would be like on earth when this kingdom arrives.

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he has visited and redeemed his people, 69 And has raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he swore to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant to us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Or in other places like this: Isaiah 65:. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and my elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth (children) for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. Or the all encompassing promise made to Abraham. Genesis 12:3...in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. Or the song we sing about the birth of the messiah. Luke 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Now think about what happened when the messiah came. True believers were not saved from their enemies but hunted, persecuted and destroyed. This went on for millennia after Christ came even in lands that were ruled by kings and emperors that claimed Christianity. Real Christians if they were allowed to live at all were consigned to second class citizenship. They were not allowed to own land, build their own houses plant their own vineyards. Their children were never safe from being taken from them to be used by kings or lords in whatever manner they pleased. There had no choice or control over their own destiny. Life was short, painful and full of sorrows.

But what happened? Speaking to true believers in many nations today. How is it that you are able to serve God without fear of your enemies? How is it your saved out of the hand of your enemies? How is it you get to build houses and keep them, and buy as many as you can afford? How is it you have never experienced famine. Why are you able to labor and build almost anything your heart desires? Great businesses and intuitions., giant churches, international denominations? Multinational corporations. Unimaginable wealth by the ancient worlds standards? Not only can no one take it from you but your children get to inherit it? Best of all you were not born a slave and don't live in any kind of fear about losing your children to despots. You get to raise them as you see fit. Hopefully in the fear and the admonition of the Lord.

What do today's circumstances in many nations have to do with the manifestation Kingdom of God on this earth? Well it may have nothing to do with what most imagine the Kingdom of God would be because like the religious leaders in Jesus day they expected God to impose a physical\visible Kingdom of God on earth. Yet when they asked Jesus when God would do this he didn't answer but instead addressed their misconception of the way the promised and prophesied kingdom of God would be manifested in the earth . Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come visibly : 21 Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus plainly told them as he now tells us through his Word that the promised kingdom of God that was to arise in the earth after the fall of the last of the four Gentile empires in Daniel chapters 2 & 7 and much of the book of Revelation would be manifested in the earth through individuals. That the earthly promises listed above and many hundreds of other chapters of prophecy like them would come to pass because God, the Gospel , the Holy Spirit, the Bibles influence is in the hearts of people. That people influenced by Gods invisible kingdom would transform nations in such a way that true believers and everyone else would be able to have the prophecies of the promises, like those listed above, fulfilled in their lives.

Here is the issue. Looking back to what happened since the last of the four empires fell in 1453 AD. In case you did not know it the capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD and a Roman emperor sat on the throne until it was conquered in 1453 and the last Roman emperor killed. There was a catalyst that began to occur immediately after that fourth empire fell that produced what we have today. That catalyst was: For the first time in human history the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. Then those peoples, empowered by the truth of scripture that they didn't have before, over time and against great opposition created the free world. Which is now being copied by others even though they may not have the same Biblical influence under-girding their nations. So when looking back. We can see that the prophecies and promises did not come through a supernatural imposition of a visible\physical kingdom. Instead via the grace of God upon further grace, conditions have to be met and promises have to be won.

Yet today, for the most part, the Christian world once more waits for a physical\visible kingdom. Which is very easy to do. It requires nothing of believers. They need do nothing but get people to accept Jesus as their savior and wait. Doesn't matter if the world goes to hell and plunges into darkness. Jesus is coming back they say. However looking at reality instead of fantasy and what it took to possess these promises. What it took to grow Gods kingdom and its fruit in the earth. It takes more of the same of what got us here in the first place to overcome evil with good. Grace upon grace. Knowledge of Gods word and his will, sacrifice and labor for the sake of God and future generations. The founding and maintenance of nations on Biblical principle. That means Christians and Christian thought must be dominate in politics. Big job.....lots of enemies, lots of resistance, lots of warfare, spiritually, politically and physically. Not something Christians today want, desire or are prepared for. But everyone seems to want a mission in life, calling, a purpose. This is it. It is not about imposing an agenda from the top down the way progressives do, which is of Satan. Its about transforming multitudes of hearts and educating and helping them grow in the ways of the Lord. Without that all the fighting and politics that sadly are necessary and part of the process will be fruitless endeavor. Unless the Lord build the house they that labor, labor in vain. But the house must be built and the laborers, at least those who know what the Lord wants to labor towards are so very few. It all starts with faith in the veracity of God's Word. It ends there to.

So be thankful for what we have. We did not earn it, Christ did. He paid for this fruit in the earth with his own blood and many others paid with theirs afterwards. But realize that with the free gift comes responsibility . Responsibility to not allow the wicked to seize Christ's inheritance but also a responsibility to give to our children the gift given us. A world under the influence of the invisible kingdom of God.

SkyWriting · Jan 20, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
There is a great misconception of the kingdom of God that was promised to come to the earth...

The bigger one is that people understand prophesy before it happens.
There are no such examples.

eleos1954 · Jan 20, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
There is a great misconception of the kingdom of God that was promised to come to the earth. Not the kingdom that believers have entered into though which they receive eternal life. But the manifestation of that kingdom on earth, prophesied throughout scripture. The misconception of it is so overwhelming that the prophecies that definitively say when it would come have to be twisted, tortured and ignored because people do not see what they have imagined it will look like. Zachariah, John the Baptist's father prophesied what it would be like on earth when this kingdom arrives.

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he has visited and redeemed his people, 69 And has raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he swore to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant to us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Or in other places like this: Isaiah 65:. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and my elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth (children) for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. Or the all encompassing promise made to Abraham. Genesis 12:3...in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. Or the song we sing about the birth of the messiah. Luke 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Now think about what happened when the messiah came. True believers were not saved from their enemies but hunted, persecuted and destroyed. This went on for millennia after Christ came even in lands that were ruled by kings and emperors that claimed Christianity. Real Christians if they were allowed to live at all were consigned to second class citizenship. They were not allowed to own land, build their own houses plant their own vineyards. Their children were never safe from being taken from them to be used by kings or lords in whatever manner they pleased. There had no choice or control over their own destiny. Life was short, painful and full of sorrows.

But what happened? Speaking to true believers in many nations today. How is it that you are able to serve God without fear of your enemies? How is it your saved out of the hand of your enemies? How is it you get to build houses and keep them, and buy as many as you can afford? How is it you have never experienced famine. Why are you able to labor and build almost anything your heart desires? Great businesses and intuitions., giant churches, international denominations? Multinational corporations. Unimaginable wealth by the ancient worlds standards? Not only can no one take it from you but your children get to inherit it? Best of all you were not born a slave and don't live in any kind of fear about losing your children to despots. You get to raise them as you see fit. Hopefully in the fear and the admonition of the Lord.

What do today's circumstances in many nations have to do with the manifestation Kingdom of God on this earth? Well it may have nothing to do with what most imagine the Kingdom of God would be because like the religious leaders in Jesus day they expected God to impose a physical\visible Kingdom of God on earth. Yet when they asked Jesus when God would do this he didn't answer but instead addressed their misconception of the way the promised and prophesied kingdom of God would be manifested in the earth . Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come visibly : 21 Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus plainly told them as he now tells us through his Word that the promised kingdom of God that was to arise in the earth after the fall of the last of the four Gentile empires in Daniel chapters 2 & 7 and much of the book of Revelation would be manifested in the earth through individuals. That the earthly promises listed above and many hundreds of other chapters of prophecy like them would come to pass because God, the Gospel , the Holy Spirit, the Bibles influence is in the hearts of people. That people influenced by Gods invisible kingdom would transform nations in such a way that true believers and everyone else would be able to have the prophecies of the promises, like those listed above, fulfilled in their lives.

Here is the issue. Looking back to what happened since the last of the four empires fell in 1453 AD. In case you did not know it the capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD and a Roman emperor sat on the throne until it was conquered in 1453 and the last Roman emperor killed. There was a catalyst that began to occur immediately after that fourth empire fell that produced what we have today. That catalyst was: For the first time in human history the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. Then those peoples, empowered by the truth of scripture that they didn't have before, over time and against great opposition created the free world. Which is now being copied by others even though they may not have the same Biblical influence under-girding their nations. So when looking back. We can see that the prophecies and promises did not come through a supernatural imposition of a visible\physical kingdom. Instead via the grace of God upon further grace, conditions have to be met and promises have to be won.

Yet today, for the most part, the Christian world once more waits for a physical\visible kingdom. Which is very easy to do. It requires nothing of believers. They need do nothing but get people to accept Jesus as their savior and wait. Doesn't matter if the world goes to hell and plunges into darkness. Jesus is coming back they say. However looking at reality instead of fantasy and what it took to possess these promises. What it took to grow Gods kingdom and its fruit in the earth. It takes more of the same of what got us here in the first place to overcome evil with good. Grace upon grace. Knowledge of Gods word and his will, sacrifice and labor for the sake of God and future generations. The founding and maintenance of nations on Biblical principle. That means Christians and Christian thought must be dominate in politics. Big job.....lots of enemies, lots of resistance, lots of warfare, spiritually, politically and physically. Not something Christians today want, desire or are prepared for. But everyone seems to want a mission in life, calling, a purpose. This is it. It is not about imposing an agenda from the top down the way progressives do, which is of Satan. Its about transforming multitudes of hearts and educating and helping them grow in the ways of the Lord. Without that all the fighting and politics that sadly are necessary and part of the process will be fruitless endeavor. Unless the Lord build the house they that labor, labor in vain. But the house must be built and the laborers, at least those who know what the Lord wants to labor towards are so very few. It all starts with faith in the veracity of God's Word. It ends there to.

So be thankful for what we have. We did not earn it, Christ did. He paid for this fruit in the earth with his own blood and many others paid with theirs afterwards. But realize that with the free gift comes responsibility . Responsibility to not allow the wicked to seize Christ's inheritance but also a responsibility to give to our children the gift given us. A world under the influence of the invisible kingdom of God.

The world won't change for a permanent better until the Lord comes back and takes all "the survivors" home and after all the lost are destroyed and God makes everything new.

Until then we are to walk in His ways and share the good news about Jesus with everyone and especially with our children.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 20, 2019

eleos1954 said:
The world won't change for a permanent better until the Lord comes back and takes all "the survivors" home and after all the lost are destroyed and God makes everything new.

Until then we are to walk in His ways and share the good news about Jesus with everyone and especially with our children.

Pretty much what the vast majority of the last few generations of Christians believe. Doesn’t account for the great things God had done in the earth though. Why all those chapters of prophecy and promise started to be fullfilled when the fourth empire fell and not before.

Just coincidence that the general public started to get access to Bibles for the first time in history right after the Roman Empire fell? Just coincidence that the powers that existed that had always conquered and subjugated any peoples that were gaining a little bit of accesss to scripture; but for the first time in history outside of ancient Israel were not able to conquer the Northern Europeans who were reading Bibles?
Just coincidence that shortly after that the America’s were discovered that provided Bible possessing, Bible reading people a place without large modern empires where able to build a nation on Biblical principle?
Just coincidence that 8000 years of despotic human government saw the beginning of the end of its perpetual reign over Gods creation once the general public got access to those Bibles?
Just coincidence that this free world has been growing even though everyone pronounces and prophesy its end?
Something to think about.

Douggg · Jan 21, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
There is a great misconception of the kingdom of God that was promised to come to the earth. Not the kingdom that believers have entered into though which they receive eternal life. But the manifestation of that kingdom on earth, prophesied throughout scripture. The misconception of it is so overwhelming that the prophecies that definitively say when it would come have to be twisted, tortured and ignored because people do not see what they have imagined it will look like. Zachariah, John the Baptist's father prophesied what it would be like on earth when this kingdom arrives.

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he has visited and redeemed his people, 69 And has raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he swore to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant to us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Or in other places like this: Isaiah 65:. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and my elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth (children) for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. Or the all encompassing promise made to Abraham. Genesis 12:3...in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. Or the song we sing about the birth of the messiah. Luke 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Now think about what happened when the messiah came. True believers were not saved from their enemies but hunted, persecuted and destroyed. This went on for millennia after Christ came even in lands that were ruled by kings and emperors that claimed Christianity. Real Christians if they were allowed to live at all were consigned to second class citizenship. They were not allowed to own land, build their own houses plant their own vineyards. Their children were never safe from being taken from them to be used by kings or lords in whatever manner they pleased. There had no choice or control over their own destiny. Life was short, painful and full of sorrows.

But what happened? Speaking to true believers in many nations today. How is it that you are able to serve God without fear of your enemies? How is it your saved out of the hand of your enemies? How is it you get to build houses and keep them, and buy as many as you can afford? How is it you have never experienced famine. Why are you able to labor and build almost anything your heart desires? Great businesses and intuitions., giant churches, international denominations? Multinational corporations. Unimaginable wealth by the ancient worlds standards? Not only can no one take it from you but your children get to inherit it? Best of all you were not born a slave and don't live in any kind of fear about losing your children to despots. You get to raise them as you see fit. Hopefully in the fear and the admonition of the Lord.

What do today's circumstances in many nations have to do with the manifestation Kingdom of God on this earth? Well it may have nothing to do with what most imagine the Kingdom of God would be because like the religious leaders in Jesus day they expected God to impose a physical\visible Kingdom of God on earth. Yet when they asked Jesus when God would do this he didn't answer but instead addressed their misconception of the way the promised and prophesied kingdom of God would be manifested in the earth . Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come visibly : 21 Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus plainly told them as he now tells us through his Word that the promised kingdom of God that was to arise in the earth after the fall of the last of the four Gentile empires in Daniel chapters 2 & 7 and much of the book of Revelation would be manifested in the earth through individuals. That the earthly promises listed above and many hundreds of other chapters of prophecy like them would come to pass because God, the Gospel , the Holy Spirit, the Bibles influence is in the hearts of people. That people influenced by Gods invisible kingdom would transform nations in such a way that true believers and everyone else would be able to have the prophecies of the promises, like those listed above, fulfilled in their lives.

Here is the issue. Looking back to what happened since the last of the four empires fell in 1453 AD. In case you did not know it the capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD and a Roman emperor sat on the throne until it was conquered in 1453 and the last Roman emperor killed. There was a catalyst that began to occur immediately after that fourth empire fell that produced what we have today. That catalyst was: For the first time in human history the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. Then those peoples, empowered by the truth of scripture that they didn't have before, over time and against great opposition created the free world. Which is now being copied by others even though they may not have the same Biblical influence under-girding their nations. So when looking back. We can see that the prophecies and promises did not come through a supernatural imposition of a visible\physical kingdom. Instead via the grace of God upon further grace, conditions have to be met and promises have to be won.

Yet today, for the most part, the Christian world once more waits for a physical\visible kingdom. Which is very easy to do. It requires nothing of believers. They need do nothing but get people to accept Jesus as their savior and wait. Doesn't matter if the world goes to hell and plunges into darkness. Jesus is coming back they say. However looking at reality instead of fantasy and what it took to possess these promises. What it took to grow Gods kingdom and its fruit in the earth. It takes more of the same of what got us here in the first place to overcome evil with good. Grace upon grace. Knowledge of Gods word and his will, sacrifice and labor for the sake of God and future generations. The founding and maintenance of nations on Biblical principle. That means Christians and Christian thought must be dominate in politics. Big job.....lots of enemies, lots of resistance, lots of warfare, spiritually, politically and physically. Not something Christians today want, desire or are prepared for. But everyone seems to want a mission in life, calling, a purpose. This is it. It is not about imposing an agenda from the top down the way progressives do, which is of Satan. Its about transforming multitudes of hearts and educating and helping them grow in the ways of the Lord. Without that all the fighting and politics that sadly are necessary and part of the process will be fruitless endeavor. Unless the Lord build the house they that labor, labor in vain. But the house must be built and the laborers, at least those who know what the Lord wants to labor towards are so very few. It all starts with faith in the veracity of God's Word. It ends there to.

So be thankful for what we have. We did not earn it, Christ did. He paid for this fruit in the earth with his own blood and many others paid with theirs afterwards. But realize that with the free gift comes responsibility . Responsibility to not allow the wicked to seize Christ's inheritance but also a responsibility to give to our children the gift given us. A world under the influence of the invisible kingdom of God.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
_______________________________________________________
The ten kings are not in place yet.

eleos1954 · Jan 21, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
Pretty much what the vast majority of the last few generations of Christians believe. Doesn’t account for the great things God had done in the earth though. Why all those chapters of prophecy and promise started to be fullfilled when the fourth empire fell and not before.

Just coincidence that the general public started to get access to Bibles for the first time in history right after the Roman Empire fell? Just coincidence that the powers that existed that had always conquered and subjugated any peoples that were gaining a little bit of accesss to scripture; but for the first time in history outside of ancient Israel were not able to conquer the Northern Europeans who were reading Bibles?
Just coincidence that shortly after that the America’s were discovered that provided Bible possessing, Bible reading people a place without large modern empires where able to build a nation on Biblical principle?
Just coincidence that 8000 years of despotic human government saw the beginning of the end of its perpetual reign over Gods creation once the general public got access to those Bibles?
Just coincidence that this free world has been growing even though everyone pronounces and prophesy its end?
Something to think about.

***

Some see them as "coincidences" others as prophesies fulfilled or to be fulfilled ... the final end is determined by God alone ... no one knows when that is ... some things we do know:

We are to be ready for His return at all times.

1st Thessalonians 5

5 Now, brothers and sisters, we do not need to write you about times and dates. 2 You know very well that the day the Lord comes again will be a surprise, like a thief that comes in the night. 3 While people are saying, “We have peace and we are safe,” they will be destroyed quickly. It is like pains that come quickly to a woman having a baby. Those people will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not living in darkness, and so that day will not surprise you like a thief

We are to spread the good news about Jesus until He returns.

Matthew 28

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Society will deteriorate (like the days of Noah) and then He will return.

Gods people (those following Jesus) will go through great tribulation (but cut short). (there will be a dominate religious power - led by antichrist) and will be very deceptive

Matthew 24

21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

2nd Thessalonians 3

9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

Buying powers will be controlled (spending/buying powers are controlled by governments, therefore ... likely a unity between the two)

Revelation 3

16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.c

Much prophesied has happened, much yet to happen, how quickly it happens, we don't know ... but we do know all prophesy must be fulfilled.

Luke 24

44 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

Even so ... come Lord Jesus. Amen

claninja · Jan 21, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
There is a great misconception of the kingdom of God that was promised to come to the earth. Not the kingdom that believers have entered into though which they receive eternal life. But the manifestation of that kingdom on earth, prophesied throughout scripture.

I absolutely agree that there seems to be a misconception about the kingdom of God and what it actually is. I also absolutely agree God's kingdom is near and manifested on earth, but not as a physical brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms

Jesus tells Nicodemus that only the born again can "see" the kingdom of God. This statement right here should be a significant clue that the kingdom of heaven is not manifested as a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms.

John 3:3 answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

As you pointed out, Jesus states the kingdom does not come in ways that can be observed. Thus, we have again another piece of evidence that shows that the kingdom of God is not a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthy kingdoms.

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Jesus even tells Pilate that his kingdom is not "of" this world. Thus, again, we see the kingdom of heaven is not manifested as a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Daniel Martinovich said:
Jesus plainly told them as he now tells us through his Word that the promised kingdom of God that was to arise in the earth after the fall of the last of the four Gentile empires in Daniel chapters 2 & 7 and much of the book of Revelation would be manifested in the earth through individuals. That the earthly promises listed above and many hundreds of other chapters of prophecy like them would come to pass because God, the Gospel , the Holy Spirit, the Bibles influence is in the hearts of people. That people influenced by Gods invisible kingdom would transform nations in such a way that true believers and everyone else would be able to have the prophecies of the promises, like those listed above, fulfilled in their lives.

Here is the issue. Looking back to what happened since the last of the four empires fell in 1453 AD. In case you did not know it the capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD and a Roman emperor sat on the throne until it was conquered in 1453 and the last Roman emperor killed. There was a catalyst that began to occur immediately after that fourth empire fell that produced what we have today. That catalyst was: For the first time in human history the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. Then those peoples, empowered by the truth of scripture that they didn't have before, over time and against great opposition created the free world. Which is now being copied by others even though they may not have the same Biblical influence under-girding their nations. So when looking back. We can see that the prophecies and promises did not come through a supernatural imposition of a visible\physical kingdom. Instead via the grace of God upon further grace, conditions have to be met and promises have to be won.

Here is a where I partially disagree with you. I don't believe scripture tells us that the kingdom of God would be manifested AFTER the fall of the 4 kingdoms, but DURING the kings of the 4th kingdom

In Daniel 2, in the interpretation , we are told that in the "days of those kings", God would set up a kingdom that would never be destroyed. Notice, it doesn't say AFTER the days of those kings. So it is NOT AFTER the 4th kingdom that God would set up his kingdom, but during the 4th kingdom. Ultimately, After the kingdom of God was set up during the 4th kingdom, Rome did eventually fall.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

And as we can see, God did begin to set up his kingdom during the kings of the 4th kingdom (rome) through Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand;e repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 11:19-20 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And when Christ ascended to the right hand, he was given the kingdom.

Daniel 7:13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

Luke 19:12 said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The interpretation of the vision in Daniel 7 doesn't say that the 4th beast is destroyed. The interpretation specifically states that the king that oppresses the saints is destroyed.

Daniel 7:23-26 This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever

So what we see here is that during the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom, a little horn would appear and persecute the saints. Once this little horn was destroyed, the kingdom of God would be given to the saints.

The author of Hebrews validates this. Hebrews was written during the reign of the first 10 kings of the roman empire. The author specifically states that they were "receiving" (present tense; in the process of) a kingdom.

Hebrews 12:27-28 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

interestingly enough Jesus tells exactly when the kingdom of God would be given to the saints: when the dominion would be taken away from unfaithful Jerusalem, at the coming of the vineyard owner.

Matthew 21:40-41, 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

What I find so interesting, is that there were 10 Emperors of Rome: 1.) Julius Caesar 2.) Augustus 3.) Tiberius 4.) Caligula 5.) Claudius 6.) Nero 7.) Galba 8.) Otto 9.) Vitellius and 10.) Vespasian...... leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns

7.) Galba, 8.) Otto, and 9.) Vitellius were killed in 69 AD.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; and shall be different from the former ones, and three kings shall subdue.

The little horn doesn't necessarily have to be another roman emperor, for it is different than the 10 kings from the 4th beast.
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; and shall be different from the former ones, and three kings shall subdue.

And when this little horn is destroyed his dominion is taken away, and the kingdom of God is given to the saints.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

And when the kingdom was taken away from old covenant Jerusalem, it was given to the saints.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits

jgr · Jan 21, 2019

claninja said:
I absolutely agree that there seems to be a misconception about the kingdom of God and what it actually is. I also absolutely agree God's kingdom is near and manifested on earth, but not as a physical brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms

Jesus tells Nicodemus that only the born again can "see" the kingdom of God. This statement right here should be a significant clue that the kingdom of heaven is not manifested as a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms.

John 3:3 answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

As you pointed out, Jesus states the kingdom does not come in ways that can be observed. Thus, we have again another piece of evidence that shows that the kingdom of God is not a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthy kingdoms.

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Jesus even tells Pilate that his kingdom is not "of" this world. Thus, again, we see the kingdom of heaven is not manifested as a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Here is a where I partially disagree with you. I don't believe scripture tells us that the kingdom of God would be manifested AFTER the fall of the 4 kingdoms, but DURING the kings of the 4th kingdom

In Daniel 2, in the interpretation , we are told that in the "days of those kings", God would set up a kingdom that would never be destroyed. Notice, it doesn't say AFTER the days of those kings. So it is NOT AFTER the 4th kingdom that God would set up his kingdom, but during the 4th kingdom. Ultimately, After the kingdom of God was set up during the 4th kingdom, Rome did eventually fall.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

And as we can see, God did begin to set up his kingdom during the kings of the 4th kingdom (rome) through Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand;e repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 11:19-20 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And when Christ ascended to the right hand, he was given the kingdom.

Daniel 7:13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

Luke 19:12 said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The interpretation of the vision in Daniel 7 doesn't say that the 4th beast is destroyed. The interpretation specifically states that the king that oppresses the saints is destroyed.

Daniel 7:23-26 This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever

So what we see here is that during the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom, a little horn would appear and persecute the saints. Once this little horn was destroyed, the kingdom of God would be given to the saints.

The author of Hebrews validates this. Hebrews was written during the reign of the first 10 kings of the roman empire. The author specifically states that they were "receiving" (present tense; in the process of) a kingdom.

Hebrews 12:27-28 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

interestingly enough Jesus tells exactly when the kingdom of God would be given to the saints: when the dominion would be taken away from unfaithful Jerusalem, at the coming of the vineyard owner.

Matthew 21:40-41, 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

What I find so interesting, is that there were 10 Emperors of Rome: 1.) Julius Caesar 2.) Augustus 3.) Tiberius 4.) Caligula 5.) Claudius 6.) Nero 7.) Galba 8.) Otto 9.) Vitellius and 10.) Vespasian...... leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns

7.) Galba, 8.) Otto, and 9.) Vitellius were killed in 69 AD.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; and shall be different from the former ones, and three kings shall subdue.

The little horn doesn't necessarily have to be another roman emperor, for it is different than the 10 kings from the 4th beast.
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; and shall be different from the former ones, and three kings shall subdue.

And when this little horn is destroyed his dominion is taken away, and the kingdom of God is given to the saints.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

And when the kingdom was taken away from old covenant Jerusalem, it was given to the saints.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits

Who does preterism identify as the little horn?

claninja · Jan 21, 2019

jgr said:
Who does preterism identify as the little horn?

For preterism in general, it's kind of all over the place. Some say Nero, some say John Gischala, some say Herod, some say Mannahem, some the pope, etc.....

Personally, I don't have a view on a specific person.

Daniel is told that when the little horn is destroyed and his dominion taken away, the kingdom is given to the saints.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

I think the answer to a possible identity/partial identity of the little horn is given by Jesus as he states that when the kingdom would be taken from unfaithful old covenant Israel at the coming of the vineyard owner, it would then be given to those who will produce fruit (saints; sons of God under the new covenant). Therefore, I believe a partial Identity of the Little horn is unfaithful old covenant Israel.

Matthew 21:43-44 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Another clue is that the angel tells Daniel that the little horn is different from the 10 kings of the beast. Thus, the little horn doesn't necessarily have to be a roman emperor.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings.

I would argue that the beast of revelation is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7

The beast of revelation has the same attributes as the little horn. It speaks against God and wars against the saints.
Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,

Daniel 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

As the beast is multiple entities (7 heads and 10 horns) and yet one entity, the 8th king being the beast, so to I believe the little horn to be a combination of entities under the influence of Satan.

I believe unfaithful old covenant Israel to be a part of the beast that persecuted the church with the help of Roman Authorities. Old covenant Israel also destroy the woman (the city of Jerusalem) through the warring factions of zealots and finally with Rome sieging it.

Thus when the vineyard owner came in judgment in 70AD he took the kingdom away from unfaithful old covenant Israel (the little horn, the beast) and gave it to the saints, fulfilling Daniel 7.

Revelation 17 17:14 They (the beast and the woman riding it) will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.”

Revelation 19:19-21 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army. But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse.

jgr · Jan 21, 2019

claninja said:
For preterism in general, it's kind of all over the place. Some say Nero, some say John Gischala, some say Herod, some say Mannahem, some the pope, etc.....

Personally, I don't have a view on a specific person.

Daniel is told that when the little horn is destroyed and his dominion taken away, the kingdom is given to the saints.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

I think the answer to a possible identity/partial identity of the little horn is given by Jesus as he states that when the kingdom would be taken from unfaithful old covenant Israel at the coming of the vineyard owner, it would then be given to those who will produce fruit (saints; sons of God under the new covenant). Therefore, I believe a partial Identity of the Little horn is unfaithful old covenant Israel.

Matthew 21:43-44 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Another clue is that the angel tells Daniel that the little horn is different from the 10 kings of the beast. Thus, the little horn doesn't necessarily have to be a roman emperor.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings.

I would argue that the beast of revelation is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7

The beast of revelation has the same attributes as the little horn. It speaks against God and wars against the saints.
Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,

Daniel 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

As the beast is multiple entities (7 heads and 10 horns) and yet one entity, the 8th king being the beast, so to I believe the little horn to be a combination of entities under the influence of Satan.

I believe unfaithful old covenant Israel to be a part of the beast that persecuted the church with the help of Roman Authorities. Old covenant Israel also destroy the woman (the city of Jerusalem) through the warring factions of zealots and finally with Rome sieging it.

Thus when the vineyard owner came in judgment in 70AD he took the kingdom away from unfaithful old covenant Israel (the little horn, the beast) and gave it to the saints, fulfilling Daniel 7.

Revelation 17 17:14 They (the beast and the woman riding it) will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.”

Revelation 19:19-21 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army. But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse.

There are cogent correlations between Daniel's descriptions and historicism's apostate papacy.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 21, 2019

Douggg said:
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
_______________________________________________________
The ten kings are not in place yet.

That is a good example of why I said this: The misconception of it is so overwhelming that the prophecies that definitively say when it would come have to be twisted, tortured and ignored because people do not see what they have imagined it will look like.
You don't have any idea if the ten kings are come yet. Your only judging it that way because you expect a visible\physical kingdom to come. Since it is not here then the ten kings have not yet come. Why am I saying that is twisting, torturing and ignoring prophecy? Because the ten kings lie withing the scope of 4th empire, the Roman empire. it is twisting, torturing and ignoring prophecy to say that it is not.

It is easy to point out that a great age of promise has in fact arisen since that fourth empire fell in 1453 AD. That the earthly promises made to hundreds of generations of saints remained unfulfilled in their generations until now in nations that are meeting the conditions. But how do the ten kings and then the eleventh of the ten play into this? Well in Daniel 7 it does not specify which 10 kings or emperors precede an eleventh that launches a war that overcomes the saints for a time, 2 times and a half time. Which is 1260. Revelation however gives us greater details on these ten.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. The very simple explanation is: John received this vision during the reign of the 6th emperor. The ten are somewhere out beyond the first 7.

Now I will note that Revelation uses the same number of 1260 in relationship to the Roman empire 5 times. 3.5 years, 1260 days. 42 months etc etc. So the easiest thing to do is to go to the end of the empire, 1453 AD and subtract 1260 of something. I chose years. That brings us to 193 AD. The first year of the reign of Setimius Severus. This is what Daniel 7 says of the eleventh horn.
Or Daniel 7:7.....and it had ten horns. 8. I considered the horns, and look, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns uprooted;......20. And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, before whom three fell;.....24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. This is so God smack accurate of Severus that if secularist knew about it they would say it was faked as prophecy because it is obvious it is written after the fact. How did it happen? There were three emperors that assumed the throne without contest that all fell in one year. Then there were three contestants to the throne that Severus conquered. Not just that he overthrew 3 dynasties of Italian emperors as he was an
African and from that point on being Italian ceased to be a factor in emperorship. But wait there is more. His son, another African declared everyone within the Roman empire that was not a slave, a Roman citizen. Huge deal in changing what the Roman empire was. But what about the war? Well the ten previous emperors included the 5 "good emperors" During the reign of the ten there was no large scale imperial persecutions of Christians. Which is pretty astounding considering the Babylonian priesthood was actually part of the Roman government and begged day and night for persecution. But Severus was a huge pagan and heeded their calls. He made the worlds first blasphemy law. The death penalty for converting to Christianity. Thus the war was started and continued until the empire fell. Christians were conquered subjugated and world wide.

It gets a lot more detailed that this though. One thing about Bible prophecy. Its hyper accurate. More accurate than history is looking back. But I'll let you chew on this a while before I say anything else. By the way this is all written about in great detail in my article.
End Time Prophecy

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 21, 2019

claninja said:
I absolutely agree that there seems to be a misconception about the kingdom of God and what it actually is. I also absolutely agree God's kingdom is near and manifested on earth, but not as a physical brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms

Jesus tells Nicodemus that only the born again can "see" the kingdom of God. This statement right here should be a significant clue that the kingdom of heaven is not manifested as a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms.

John 3:3 answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

As you pointed out, Jesus states the kingdom does not come in ways that can be observed. Thus, we have again another piece of evidence that shows that the kingdom of God is not a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthy kingdoms.

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Jesus even tells Pilate that his kingdom is not "of" this world. Thus, again, we see the kingdom of heaven is not manifested as a physical, brick and mortar kingdom, like other earthly kingdoms.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Here is a where I partially disagree with you. I don't believe scripture tells us that the kingdom of God would be manifested AFTER the fall of the 4 kingdoms, but DURING the kings of the 4th kingdom.

I didn't say the Kingdom would be manifest after the fourth empire. At least I did not mean it to be understood that way. The Kingdom of God existed and was manifest on earth before Jesus even came. What i said is the earthly promises of that kingdom did not become manifest until after the fourth empire fell. Believe it or not and despite all the theology on the matter. When the Old and New Testament saints were referring to the coming kingdom. It was those earthy promises they were referring to. So yes of course the Kingdom of God as we understand it came with the coming of the messiah. And of course it began to change the world everywhere it was preached because it is a kingdom that influences the world for the better. But that influnce did not grow strong enough to bring about the start of the age of promise UNTIL the Bible got into the hands of the general public starting immediately after the fall of that fourth empire. In other words after the age of the four gentile empires ended.

claninja said:

In Daniel 2, in the interpretation , we are told that in the "days of those kings", God would set up a kingdom that would never be destroyed. Notice, it doesn't say AFTER the days of those kings. So it is NOT AFTER the 4th kingdom that God would set up his kingdom, but during the 4th kingdom. Ultimately, After the kingdom of God was set up during the 4th kingdom, Rome did eventually fall.

Click to expand...

claninja said:
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

And as we can see, God did begin to set up his kingdom during the kings of the 4th kingdom (rome) through Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand;e repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 11:19-20 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And when Christ ascended to the right hand, he was given the kingdom.

Daniel 7:13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

Luke 19:12 said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The interpretation of the vision in Daniel 7 doesn't say that the 4th beast is destroyed. The interpretation specifically states that the king that oppresses the saints is destroyed.

Daniel 7:23-26 This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever

So what we see here is that during the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom, a little horn would appear and persecute the saints. Once this little horn was destroyed, the kingdom of God would be given to the saints.

The author of Hebrews validates this. Hebrews was written during the reign of the first 10 kings of the roman empire. The author specifically states that they were "receiving" (present tense; in the process of) a kingdom.

Hebrews 12:27-28 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

interestingly enough Jesus tells exactly when the kingdom of God would be given to the saints: when the dominion would be taken away from unfaithful Jerusalem, at the coming of the vineyard owner.

Matthew 21:40-41, 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

What I find so interesting, is that there were 10 Emperors of Rome: 1.) Julius Caesar 2.) Augustus 3.) Tiberius 4.) Caligula 5.) Claudius 6.) Nero 7.) Galba 8.) Otto 9.) Vitellius and 10.) Vespasian...... leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns

7.) Galba, 8.) Otto, and 9.) Vitellius were killed in 69 AD.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; and shall be different from the former ones, and three kings shall subdue.

The little horn doesn't necessarily have to be another roman emperor, for it is different than the 10 kings from the 4th beast.
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; and shall be different from the former ones, and three kings shall subdue.

And when this little horn is destroyed his dominion is taken away, and the kingdom of God is given to the saints.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

And when the kingdom was taken away from old covenant Jerusalem, it was given to the saints.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits

I'm not a preterist and I disagree quite strongly with attempts to make all prophecy fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem. The prophecies about the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant age are prophecies about the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant age nothing more nothing less.

Douggg · Jan 22, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
You don't have any idea if the ten kings are come yet. Your only judging it that way because you expect a visible\physical kingdom to come. Since it is not here then the ten kings have not yet come. Why am I saying that is twisting, torturing and ignoring prophecy? Because the ten kings lie withing the scope of 4th empire, the Roman empire. it is twisting, torturing and ignoring prophecy to say that it is not.

I said the ten kings are not in place yet. I am sure that those persons are alive right now.

The ten kings are of the Roman Empire, but the endtimes version of it - the EU.

Daniel Martinovich said:
So the easiest thing to do is to go to the end of the empire, 1453 AD and subtract 1260 of something. I chose years. That brings us to 193 AD. The first year of the reign of Setimius Severus. This is what Daniel 7 says of the eleventh horn.

Why would you use that method? In Revelation 13:1, the ten horns have their crowns. Which that chapter is with 42 months left in the 7 years, which the beast has power over the entire world.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

You are using the wrong approach Daniel. Instead go by the crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns in chapters 13, 12, 17.

Revelation 17 is first century, at the time the sixth king was ruling.
Revelation 12 (except for the first five verses) is end times, king 7 come to power.
Revelation 13 is end times, last 42 months, the beast king 8 in power.
___________________________________________________________

Daniel 7 ends with Jesus's return to this earth, and the Kingdom of God setup as the ruling kingdom. The Lord's prayer is...

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

The little horn person in Daniel 7 is end times, which we are living in right now.

claninja · Jan 22, 2019

jgr said:
There are cogent correlations between Daniel's descriptions and historicism's apostate papacy.

I definitely agree there are compelling arguments of a possible correlation with apostate papacy.

The only issues I have with that is how it relates to:

1.) God setting up his kingdom
Daniel 2:44 In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed

For Jesus preached the kingdom was at hand
Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

and that Part of the kingdom of God had come up on them through the miraculous works of God.
Luke 11:20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Christ, through his resurrection, had fulfilled the oath to David that he would sit on the throne forever.
Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

And had received the kingdom.
Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son,

2.) the saints receiving the kingdom.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High

Through Christ's death the 1st century believers all the way until today have been rescued from the dominion of darkness and brought into Jesus' kingdom
Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son,

The 1st century believers were receiving a kingdom that could never be destroyed.
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe.

Paul looked forward to the day he would be safely brought into the heavenly kingdom.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

So while there are good arguments that the little horn could be apostate papcy, I would argue that the 10 kings of the 4th beast are the 10 Roman emperors. For it is during these kings that Christ came, died, and ascended to the Father where he received the kingdom. I would also argue that the kingdom was given to the saints during these 10 roman emperors

Matthew 21:43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit

claninja · Jan 22, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
I didn't say the Kingdom would be manifest after the fourth empire. At least I did not mean it to be understood that way.

Daniel Martinovich said:
Jesus plainly told them as he now tells us through his Word that the promised kingdom of God that was to arise in the earth after the fall of the last of the four Gentile empires in Daniel chapters 2 & 7

You stated in the OP, that the kingdom would arise in the earth "after" the fall of the last of the 4 gentile empires. However, maybe I misunderstood the kingdom "rising after" with the kingdom "manifesting". So I appreciate you clearing that up for me.

Daniel Martinovich said:
The Kingdom of God existed and was manifest on earth before Jesus even came

Good, so it then appears we agree that the kingdom of God was set up during the kings of the 4th empire through Jesus Christ.

Daniel Martinovich said:
What i said is the earthly promises of that kingdom did not become manifest until after the fourth empire fell. Believe it or not and despite all the theology on the matter.

I guess it depends on what the earthly blessings and promises of the kingdom of God are. I believe part of the blessings are righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit, as well as bearing fruit for God.

Romans 14:17 the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit

Matthew 13:23 But the seed sown on good soil is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and produces a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.”

I believe the forgiveness of sin is part of the promises of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:23-27 Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned. Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

Daniel Martinovich said:
Now think about what happened when the messiah came. True believers were not saved from their enemies but hunted, persecuted and destroyed. This went on for millennia after Christ came even in lands that were ruled by kings and emperors that claimed Christianity. But what happened? Speaking to true believers in many nations today. How is it that you are able to serve God without fear of your enemies? How is it your saved out of the hand of your enemies?

I disagree, and it's because of Christ. Christians do not fear those that can kill our fleshly bodies, because God will raise up. No, we fear only God, through persecution, and through blessing. And we know from the accounts of Acts that many believers were unafraid of preaching the gospel, in fact they praised God in the midst of persecution that they were considered worthy to suffer for his Kingdom.

Matthew 10:26-28 So do not be afraid of them. For there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, and nothing hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the housetops. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

As believers, our struggle is not against men, who are flesh and blood. Why? because Christ will raise us up. No our struggle is with sin, but we put on the full armor of God and face it.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Nor do we worry about materialistic possessions, but seek first the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:32-33 For the pagans strive after all these things, and your Heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

Daniel Martinovich said:
Or the all encompassing promise made to Abraham. Genesis 12:3...in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. Or the song we sing about the birth of the messiah.

This promise was experienced by the first century Church. And is experienced to this day.
Genesis 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Daniel Martinovich said:
When the Old and New Testament saints were referring to the coming kingdom. It was those earthy promises they were referring to.

I partially agree. There are definitely earthly promises to be enjoyed by the kingdom of God while he dwells with us on earth in the Spirit. But the inheriting the kingdom is also going home to be with the Lord, in other words, the resurrection, for which the spirit was sent as a guarantee. Part of inheriting the kingdom of God involves suffering and persecution while on earth.

2 Timothy 4:18 the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Daniel Martinovich said:
I'm not a preterist and I disagree quite strongly with attempts to make all prophecy fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem. The prophecies about the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant age are prophecies about the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant age nothing more nothing less.

I too disagree that all prophecy was fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem. I believe a lot of what was written about Jesus was fulfilled when he came in the flesh to suffer and then enter glory.

Luke 24:44-48 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.

According to the angel, when would the saints receive the kingdom? when the little horn was destroyed.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High

According to Jesus, when would the kingdom be given to the saints? when the wicked tenants would be destroyed.
Matthew 21:41-43 He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’j ? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit

**interestingly enough the wicked tenants were destroyed after 3 roman kings had been killed within 1 year and after the 10th roman king came into power.

jgr · Jan 22, 2019

claninja said:
1.) God setting up his kingdom
Daniel 2:44 In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed

For Jesus preached the kingdom was at hand
Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

and that Part of the kingdom of God had come up on them through the miraculous works of God.
Luke 11:20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Christ, through his resurrection, had fulfilled the oath to David that he would sit on the throne forever.
Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

And had received the kingdom.
Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Historicism completely concurs.

claninja said:
2.) the saints receiving the kingdom.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High

Insofar as the papacy still remains, this would appear to refer to its final ultimate destruction at the final consummation. The reference to plural "kingdoms" (rather than the one spiritual kingdom) would in my mind support this as a reference to the final consummation. I see no conflict with the reality of the Daniel 2:44 spiritual kingdom that Christ established for His saints at His first coming.

claninja said:
Through Christ's death the 1st century believers all the way until today have been rescued from the dominion of darkness and brought into Jesus' kingdom
Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son,

The 1st century believers were receiving a kingdom that could never be destroyed.
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe.

Paul looked forward to the day he would be safely brought into the heavenly kingdom.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Matthew 21:43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit

Historicism completely concurs.

claninja · Jan 22, 2019

jgr said:
Insofar as the papacy still remains, this would appear to refer to its final ultimate destruction at the final consummation. The reference to plural "kingdoms" (rather than the one spiritual kingdom) would in my mind support this as a reference to the final consummation. I see no conflict with the reality of the Daniel 2:44 spiritual kingdom that Christ established for His saints at His first coming.

I'm interested in this now after taking a closer look at it. We definitely see a singular "kingdom" is given to the saints in the beginning of verse 27. But is it kingdoms, as in plural , that are given to the saints, or the greatness of the kingdoms? It then goes on to say that all dominions shall serve and obey him. I would argue this occurs now on earth. There are Christians all over the world in every dominion that serve and obey the one true God.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom (singular) and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms (plural) under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

Although Luke 19 kind of works with Daniel 7:27. Although they are cities and not kingdoms in regards to this.

Luke 19:17-19 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!c Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.

jgr · Jan 22, 2019

claninja said:
I'm interested in this now after taking a closer look at it. We definitely see a singular "kingdom" is given to the saints in the beginning of verse 27. But is it kingdoms, as in plural , that are given to the saints, or the greatness of the kingdoms? It then goes on to say that all dominions shall serve and obey him. I would argue this occurs now on earth. There are Christians all over the world in every dominion that serve and obey the one true God.

I would not disagree. Verse 27 need not chronologically follow verse 26, in the same way as the first clause of Daniel 9:27 does not chronologically follow the last clause of Daniel 9:26. And any reference to a singular kingdom is unquestionably a reference to the spiritual kingdom, as you've described. A good insight.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 22, 2019

claninja said:
You stated in the OP, that the kingdom would arise in the earth "after" the fall of the last of the 4 gentile empires. However, maybe I misunderstood the kingdom "rising after" with the kingdom "manifesting". So I appreciate you clearing that up for me.

Good, so it then appears we agree that the kingdom of God was set up during the kings of the 4th empire through Jesus Christ.

I guess it depends on what the earthly blessings and promises of the kingdom of God are. I believe part of the blessings are righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit, as well as bearing fruit for God.

Romans 14:17 the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit

Matthew 13:23 But the seed sown on good soil is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and produces a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.”

I believe the forgiveness of sin is part of the promises of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:23-27 Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned. Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

I disagree, and it's because of Christ. Christians do not fear those that can kill our fleshly bodies, because God will raise up. No, we fear only God, through persecution, and through blessing. And we know from the accounts of Acts that many believers were unafraid of preaching the gospel, in fact they praised God in the midst of persecution that they were considered worthy to suffer for his Kingdom.

Matthew 10:26-28 So do not be afraid of them. For there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, and nothing hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the housetops. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

As believers, our struggle is not against men, who are flesh and blood. Why? because Christ will raise us up. No our struggle is with sin, but we put on the full armor of God and face it.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Nor do we worry about materialistic possessions, but seek first the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:32-33 For the pagans strive after all these things, and your Heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

This promise was experienced by the first century Church. And is experienced to this day.
Genesis 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

I partially agree. There are definitely earthly promises to be enjoyed by the kingdom of God while he dwells with us on earth in the Spirit. But the inheriting the kingdom is also going home to be with the Lord, in other words, the resurrection, for which the spirit was sent as a guarantee. Part of inheriting the kingdom of God involves suffering and persecution while on earth.

2 Timothy 4:18 the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I too disagree that all prophecy was fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem. I believe a lot of what was written about Jesus was fulfilled when he came in the flesh to suffer and then enter glory.

Luke 24:44-48 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.

According to the angel, when would the saints receive the kingdom? when the little horn was destroyed.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High

According to Jesus, when would the kingdom be given to the saints? when the wicked tenants would be destroyed.
Matthew 21:41-43 He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’j ? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit

**interestingly enough the wicked tenants were destroyed after 3 roman kings had been killed within 1 year and after the 10th roman king came into power.

Well see, what you are doing is "spiritualizing " the promises and prophecy I am referring too. I mean its not like I haven't known every verse you quoted by heart for the last 30 years. And of course Jesus and the apostles would emphasize those verses of promises too because they knew, well at least Jesus knew that for the most part those were the only promises they would be able to attain to for thousands of years. And its not also like we in the western world doesn't preach and teach those things to strengthen us against the minor inconveniences of life we face. Minor in comparison to the trials and tribulations of all people in the ancient world and half the world today. But even Peter who possessed every promise you just listed said: 2nd Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. There was simply more promised. A lot more and the mountain of Gods Kingdom filling the whole earth after the fourth empire was crushed was the thing they were looking for.

They were looking for and hoping for the fulfillment of promise and prophecy that could not be fulfilled without an end to the legal institution of slavery. And why not since half the worlds population were the property of others in their day.
Isaiah 58:66 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isaiah 54: In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

They were looking towards and for an end to despotic human government; that without an end to that, the institution of slavery could not be done away with. Looking for the rule of law instead of the rule of men.
Psalm 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Isaiah 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

They were hungering for a day when property rights were looked at as sacred because without them you have no practical freedom.
Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They were longing for an end to the perpetual poverty of the masses and the famines and short life due to malnourishment.
Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant that dies, nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
Isaiah 60:5.......the wealth of the nations shall come unto thee. 17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

They wanted an end to being conquered and ruled over the wicked and those inspired by the spirit of antichrist.
Isaiah 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn.
Zechariah 12: 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Psalm 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Now I could add 20 verses to each of those subjects and a couple dozen other subjects of what I am calling the earthly promises of God that were to be fulfilled in the age of promise; after the age of the four gentile empires ended. It is not even disputable that these types of things did not begin to be substantively fulfilled until the general public began to get access to their own Bibles to read themselves. And that began to happen right after the age of the four gentile empires ended.

Like most people who have received the doctrine of the preterism though. You are resistant to acknowledge something that would chip away at some, (but not all) of the things you believe. Even though they are obvious. Here is one for you I think will fascinate you though. Actually you would love all my articles on Jesus's parables about the kingdom of God. I add one at the end called the parable of John the Baptist. I think it will blow your mind.
The Parable of John the Baptist

claninja · Jan 23, 2019

jgr said:
Verse 27 need not chronologically follow verse 26, in the same way as the first clause of Daniel 9:27 does not chronologically follow the last clause of Daniel 9:26.

This right here is an excellent point. Thanks jgr

The great misconception of the kingdom of God

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