How narrow is the "narrow way"?

BCsenior · Nov 30, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
You talk as if you don't even believe in Christ.

Not only do I do believe in Christ ...
but I believe in what has been written in the Scriptures!
As to the latter, you clearly do not ...
because you do not believe in the warnings!
Heads-UP: It has to be both, but that's NOT enough ...
for one has to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14)!
Just another of the many trinities.

Call me Nic · Dec 1, 2018

BCsenior said:
Not only do I do believe in Christ ...
but I believe in what has been written in the Scriptures!
As to the latter, you clearly do not ...
because you do not believe in the warnings!
Heads-UP: It has to be both, but that's NOT enough ...
for one has to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14)!
Just another of the many trinities.

One is in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells within a person (Romans 8:9-11); and he that receives Christ and trusts him is sealed with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). All who believe on Christ are born of God (John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1), and the Holy Spirit bears witness of this fact (Romans 8:16).

BCsenior · Dec 1, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
One is in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells within a person (Romans 8:9-11); and he that receives Christ and trusts him is sealed with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). All who believe on Christ are born of God (John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1), and the Holy Spirit bears witness of this fact (Romans 8:16).

Romans 8:9-11 - This is difficult, but ONLY those who
are "in Christ" walk according to the Spirit (8:1).
Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 - All of Ephesians was written ONLY to those BACs who are "faithful" (1:1).
John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1 - Truly believing also requires faith that endures, trust, and obedience.

These verses of yours are used by those
who believe in eternal security.

But, what are you going to do with all of the
many dire warnings about losing salvation?

From many other dozens of NT verses,
I can promise you that salvation is a process,
E.G. dozens of verses teach us that one's faith must endure until the end of his life for him to be saved!
Have you seen some of the best of these warnings? >>>
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Gr8Grace · Dec 1, 2018

BCsenior said:
But, what are you going to do with all of the
many dire warnings about losing salvation?

Like everyone else that holds to your theology...........they have never given scripture that shows loss of salvation.

Loss of salvation is just ZAINY when it comes to the Bible.

How about giving us ONE verse, and we can methodically, exegetically, contextually go through each verse that you falsely apply loss of salvation to.......Oh I forgot, you don't do this. It shows your doctrines false in a couple seconds.

Call me Nic · Dec 1, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
Like everyone else that holds to your theology...........they have never given scripture that shows loss of salvation.

Loss of salvation is just ZAINY when it comes to the Bible.

How about giving us ONE verse, and we can methodically, exegetically, contextually go through each verse that you falsely apply loss of salvation to.......Oh I forgot, you don't do this. It shows your doctrines false in a couple seconds.

I bet it's gonna be a verse from Revelation if he uses one. Maybe something about "blotting name(s) out of the book of life?" Just my guess. Or maybe Hebrews 6. Maybe Hebrews 10.

I was going to discuss this issue with him, but I've realized it would be to no avail. He's high-minded and rooted in his persuasion. And one can already tell how this will go: he will use scriptures that are twisted and taken out of context, and when you combat him with clear scripture, he will not concede due to pride. There are many like that in these forums.

Call me Nic · Dec 1, 2018

BCsenior said:
Romans 8:9-11 - This is difficult, but ONLY those who
are "in Christ" walk according to the Spirit (8:1).
Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 - All of Ephesians was written ONLY to those BACs who are "faithful" (1:1).
John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1 - Truly believing also requires faith that endures, trust, and obedience.

These verses of yours are used by those
who believe in eternal security.

But, what are you going to do with all of the
many dire warnings about losing salvation?

From many other dozens of NT verses,
I can promise you that salvation is a process,
e.g. dozens of verses teach us that one's faith must endure until the end of his life for him to be saved!
Have you seen some of the best of these? >>>
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Friend, how can we lose something we never deserved in the first place? We can't earn salvation to begin with. It's a gift from God. A gift is something bought and paid for by the giver, and the receiver gets to keep it forever; that's how gift-giving works. It wouldn't be a GIFT if God took away our salvation for any reason. We shouldn't have ever had it in the first place then.

You are literally trusting your own righteousness to get you to heaven. And that will send you straight to hell. You do not have the righteousness of Christ imputed to you if you don't trust in his worthiness.

BCsenior · Dec 1, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
... he will use scriptures that are twisted and taken out of context,
and when you combat him with clear scripture, he will not concede due to pride.

That's what they all say!
But, they don't tackle the verses and show the
how-where-when-why people like me are wrong!

Some of the verses you hate are here ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Why don't you mosey on over to the above thread
... and prove your allegations?
That would be exciting, don't you think!

Gr8Grace · Dec 1, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
You are literally trusting your own righteousness to get you to heaven.

And since the Lord Jesus Christ paid for all sin 1 John 2:2.............................It is this OWN righteousness/deeds/works that is judged.

2 Cor 11:15~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

satans ultimate deception~~self righteousness/religion. It isn't him saying,"Sin all you want." It is him saying,"Just be good and it will all be good."

Gr8Grace · Dec 1, 2018

BCsenior said:
That's what they all say!
But, they don't tackle the verses and show the
how-where-when-why people like me are wrong!

Some of the verses you hate are here ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Why don't you mosey on over to the above thread
... and prove your allegations?
That would be exciting, don't you think!

Why don't you just post one here John? And we can mosey on ONE at a time. You HATE doing this. Because it proves you wrong.

FredVB · Jan 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
These verses of yours are used by those
who believe in eternal security.

But, what are you going to do with all of the
many dire warnings about losing salvation?

From many other dozens of NT verses,
I can promise you that salvation is a process,
E.G. dozens of verses teach us that one's faith must endure until the end of his life for him to be saved!
Have you seen some of the best of these warnings?

Our works do not ever save us, none are righteous in the needed way for that, only through Christ with his accomplishment are any of us saved, according to Yahweh's grace which is promised, though good works truly must be present, which will be seen if there really is that needed repentant faith, with which one is in Christ.

Verses showing anything about salvation are never in isolation for that. Other verses cannot be untrue for those verses to be meant in some way. All the Bible verses must be true. That those who endure to the end are the ones who will be saved must then mean something for what Romans 8:28-39 would mean, without any of the verses in the various places in the Bible being untrue.

I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So the good works there must be with essential repentant faith with which one is in Christ would be showing to the end, so that those who do not endure to the end are the ones shown to be false, such as the seed falling on very rocky soil only sprouts little seedlings for awhile, which perish right away and don't endure at all.

Kenny'sID · Jan 20, 2019

FredVB said:
Our works do not ever save us, none are righteous in the needed way for that, only through Christ with his accomplishment are any of us saved, according to Yahweh's grace which is promised, though good works truly must be present, which will be seen if there really is that needed repentant faith, with which one is in Christ.

Verses showing anything about salvation are never in isolation for that. Other verses cannot be untrue for those verses to be meant in some way. All the Bible verses must be true. That those who endure to the end are the ones who will be saved must then mean something for what Romans 8:28-39 would mean, without any of the verses in the various places in the Bible being untrue.

I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So the good works there must be with essential repentant faith with which one is in Christ would be showing to the end, so that those who do not endure to the end are the ones shown to be false, such as the seed falling on very rocky soil only sprouts little seedlings for awhile, which perish right away and don't endure at all.

Good works as in being obedient to God, and loving our neighbor as ourselves, in action, and not just word, will not get us saved, that is a free gift. However it will cause loss of salvation. Here, I'll prove it, this is what Jesus says on the issue:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

FredVB · Jan 22, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Good works as in being obedient to God, and loving our neighbor as ourselves, in action, and not just word, will not get us saved, that is a free gift. However it will cause loss of salvation. Here, I'll prove it, this is what Jesus says on the issue:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

You may effectively prove something like that to yourself, but it won't be enough for proof to others generally.

What I actually said could have attention, and be addressed. Verses showing anything about salvation are never in isolation for that. Other verses cannot be untrue for those verses to be meant in some way. All the Bible verses must be true.

With your understanding of the verse you reference, how are the passages in Romans 8:28-39 true, which I referenced, with salvation only of Christ?

I will at least deal with the verse you reference, without contradicting other verses in the Bible.

"those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Hardly anyone thinks they never do any good works. But in view of perfection, none of our good is ever enough. So we really need Christ's righteousness that is offered, through what was done that the gospel shows. So as good works truly must be present, which will be seen if there really is that needed repentant faith, with which one is in Christ, it will be the difference showing for those raised to life everlasting, that others who are not repentant and do not have this atonement in Christ won't have, while they face the condemnation for their unrepentant evil doing, regardless of any good they thought they had done.

And so any involvement or contribution to destructiveness in this world, in which any of us could choose differently, is to be repented from, to turn from that. To be in God's image means we are being responsible for the wellbeing of God's creation.

Kenny'sID · Jan 22, 2019

FredVB said:
You may effectively prove something like that to yourself, but it won't be enough for proof to others generally.

What I actually said could have attention, and be addressed. Verses showing anything about salvation are never in isolation for that. Other verses cannot be untrue for those verses to be meant in some way. All the Bible verses must be true.

With your understanding of the verse you reference, how are the passages in Romans 8:28-39 true, which I referenced, with salvation only of Christ?

I will at least deal with the verse you reference, without contradicting other verses in the Bible.

"those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Hardly anyone thinks they never do any good works. But in view of perfection, none of our good is ever enough. So we really need Christ's righteousness that is offered, through what was done that the gospel shows. So as good works truly must be present, which will be seen if there really is that needed repentant faith, with which one is in Christ, it will be the difference showing for those raised to life everlasting, that others who are not repentant and do not have this atonement in Christ won't have, while they face the condemnation for their unrepentant evil doing, regardless of any good they thought they had done.

And so any involvement or contribution to destructiveness in this world, in which any of us could choose differently, is to be repented from, to turn from that. To be in God's image means we are being responsible for the wellbeing of God's creation.

Why are you telling me we need Christ...that's a given, and no one stated otherwise.

Salvation is a free gift, however it can be lost by our actions, or as put in that scripture...being bad. It really is that simple.

If someone wants to continue to live in sin after they've accepted Christ, or even go back into the worlds sin after they are saved for a time because it's more fun, that's up to them, but I won't be one to teach the very dangerous message of that being ok.

WordSword · Jan 23, 2019

Hi, and good subject title (Mat 7:13, 14)! I believe the Lord Jesus is revealing in these passages that the majority of mankind is not going to choose God's way, which is increasingly obvious, hence the "narrow way." Though He knew most of mankind would perish, one can simply understand that He's doing it all for those He knew would choose His way (strong love)! If the entirety of Heaven rejoices over a single sinner repenting (Luke 15:10), how much more over the multitudes repenting?

Though there will be a time when the saints shall be innumerable by man (Rev 7:9), they will always be considered few in comparison to the number of those who shall be lost!

Blessings!

FredVB · Jan 25, 2019

FredVB said:
What I actually said could have attention, and be addressed. Verses showing anything about salvation are never in isolation for that. Other verses cannot be untrue for those verses to be meant in some way. All the Bible verses must be true.

With your understanding of the verse you reference, how are the passages in Romans 8:28-39 true, which I referenced, with salvation only of Christ?

I will at least deal with the verse you reference, without contradicting other verses in the Bible.

"those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Hardly anyone thinks they never do any good works. But in view of perfection, none of our good is ever enough. So we really need Christ's righteousness that is offered, through what was done that the gospel shows. So as good works truly must be present, which will be seen if there really is that needed repentant faith, with which one is in Christ, it will be the difference showing for those raised to life everlasting, that others who are not repentant and do not have this atonement in Christ won't have, while they face the condemnation for their unrepentant evil doing, regardless of any good they thought they had done.

And so any involvement or contribution to destructiveness in this world, in which any of us could choose differently, is to be repented from, to turn from that. To be in God's image means we are being responsible for the wellbeing of God's creation.

Kenny'sID said:
Why are you telling me we need Christ...that's a given, and no one stated otherwise.

Salvation is a free gift, however it can be lost by our actions, or as put in that scripture...being bad. It really is that simple.

If someone wants to continue to live in sin after they've accepted Christ, or even go back into the worlds sin after they are saved for a time because it's more fun, that's up to them, but I won't be one to teach the very dangerous message of that being ok.

I say we need Christ's righteousness, even if this is accepted, as it is to be understood that this is what is needed for everything of salvation, not just a first step, and leaving any then to manage keeping the salvation with their works. The Bible isn't talking about that way. If you had repentant faith, to turn to Christ for salvation, from your sinful life, with loving Yahweh our God, what bad things would you do that would lose that, why would you not confess those bad things, that God is faithful to forgive us for?

If someone really wants to go on living in sin, were they ever saved? That seems to be evidence that they were false believers. No one is saved just confessing faith, and then living the same with no difference. There would evidence of changed life, those with that in reality will continue, and God works in their lives.

The dangerous message is what can have a false gospel of one's works believed in. None of these things are about sin being okay, that is terribly bad teaching too.

FredVB · Jan 26, 2019

WordSword said:
Hi, and good subject title (Mat 7:13, 14)! I believe the Lord Jesus is revealing in these passages that the majority of mankind is not going to choose God's way, which is increasingly obvious, hence the "narrow way." Though He knew most of mankind would perish, one can simply understand that He's doing it all for those He knew would choose His way (strong love)! If the entirety of Heaven rejoices over a single sinner repenting (Luke 15:10), how much more over the multitudes repenting?

Though there will be a time when the saints shall be innumerable by man (Rev 7:9), they will always be considered few in comparison to the number of those who shall be lost!

This is right. Many more are perishing than those who come to repentant faith that is needed in Christ. This is not what Yahweh our God desires, not wanting any to perish, but that all would come to repentance in faith with which there is salvation. It is the fault of the many that they don't. They don't have to even be where Christianity has spread, although that helps much more. God gives enough grace that any might see enough to know of the great God, desiring to know more, and being shown with that God is so good, and we are faulty with wrong things we have done to repent of those, changing to live for God, as Yahweh would make it known for them. Christianity spreading will help for many more responding this way. Still many don't, being hardened from their own doing. Many want a more broad way that any of them will obtain the most desirable future, or else they just dismiss any such possibility, living however they will. Fewer go the way with which they are in Christ, with what Christ has done, with this repentant faith, wherever they are and however much or little Christianity has been revealed. This is how it is the narrow way, which more people won't go, because of their own choices, in spite of God's work for them.

WordSword · Jan 26, 2019

FredVB said:
This is right. Many more are perishing than those who come to repentant faith that is needed in Christ. This is not what Yahweh our God desires, not wanting any to perish, but that all would come to repentance in faith with which there is salvation.

Amen, discerning between God's will and His desire has much instruction here. Though it's not His desire that any perish, it's His will if they choose to disbelieve. In this sense I see that His will is being done by everyone. It's His will for believers to enter into eternal life, and His will for unbelievers to enter eternal damnation! He knew it would be worth the few to loose the many. What do you think?

FredVB · Jan 28, 2019

FredVB said:
This is right. Many more are perishing than those who come to repentant faith that is needed in Christ. This is not what Yahweh our God desires, not wanting any to perish, but that all would come to repentance in faith with which there is salvation. It is the fault of the many that they don't. They don't have to even be where Christianity has spread, although that helps much more. God gives enough grace that any might see enough to know of the great God, desiring to know more, and being shown with that God is so good, and we are faulty with wrong things we have done to repent of those, changing to live for God, as Yahweh would make it known for them. Christianity spreading will help for many more responding this way. Still many don't, being hardened from their own doing. Many want a more broad way that any of them will obtain the most desirable future, or else they just dismiss any such possibility, living however they will. Fewer go the way with which they are in Christ, with what Christ has done, with this repentant faith, wherever they are and however much or little Christianity has been revealed. This is how it is the narrow way, which more people won't go, because of their own choices, in spite of God's work for them.

WordSword said:
Amen, discerning between God's will and His desire has much instruction here. Though it's not His desire that any perish, it's His will if they choose to disbelieve. In this sense I see that His will is being done by everyone. It's His will for believers to enter into eternal life, and His will for unbelievers to enter eternal damnation! He knew it would be worth the few to loose the many. What do you think?

Here is what I would say. I agree with the sentence, it's His will for unbelievers to enter eternal damnation! I see a conflict where there are these words, it's His will if they choose to disbelieve. It would not be right saying it's God's will if they choose to disbelieve and enter eternal damnation. That is not consistent with the case that Yahweh who is good not wanting any to perish, but that all would come to repentance in faith with which there is salvation.

If it is said that God's desire disagrees with God's will, I don't see that, from anything. I see that there is God's perfect will, though we won't all live according to that, that is in agreement with God's desire.

WordSword · Jan 28, 2019

FredVB said:
Here is what I would say. I agree with the sentence, it's His will for unbelievers to enter eternal damnation! I see a conflict where there are these words, it's His will if they choose to disbelieve.

Thanks for the reply, and after reading it I noticed I forgot to include what were discussing, those going to destruction. So instead of "it's His will if they choose to disbelieve," I meant it's His will (not desire, which is a different sense here) that they perish (He can't act against His own will) if they choose to disbelieve. Thanks for pointing that out!

Though the words will and desire can be interchangeable, I believe there are times when differentiating between them are helpful.

BCsenior · Jan 29, 2019

Believe it or not ... the NT teaches us:
True saving faith = deep enduring heart belief
+ deep enduring trust + enduring obedience

Please note: "obedient to the faith"
in Acts 6:7 and Romans 1:5 & 16:26 (NKJV).

Anyone care to see a page full of NT verses
re: the necessity of obedience?

There is no one word (in any language) which
encompasses everything that this word "believe" means.

Some Greek words can up to 40 different meanings,
depending on the context.

Some Greek words have a slightly different meaning
in the secular world than in the New Testament.

Don't take my word for it ...
you need to research it for yourself.

How narrow is the "narrow way"?

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