Can it be that Space is the Holy Spirit?

Halbhh · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
Imagine the universe, with all the matter inside. Where all the planets, stars, and energy they produce reside. Take the matter away, what remains? Even the energy can't continue to gain or elicit more energy. There is nothing left, Space. Now imagine the universe with all the matter inside and take Space away. What remains?

How could God not have value in Space? It touches everything. It's one thing, one "solid" piece of something that allows everything. Think before you jump to conclusions, no offense.

What you are referring to as 'space' is more commonly called 'physics' -- we understand in physics that mass, space, energy, all the stuff and spacetime, etc., that is this Universe, is physics in action. And this physics (reality, existence, space) came from somewhere, and that's where many of us think of God. But I'm comfortable if you personally want to call it 'space' instead of 'physics', and I'll just think 'physics' whenever you say 'space'. So, you could read post #14 that way (the inverse way).

Halbhh · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
You may begin to see what I mean when I say that Space is the one thing that allows everything. It is the zero that allows an infinite infinities. You are right in saying that it dictates "physics" (I quote because we as humans still don't know or fully understand these phenomena.) To believe it doesn't have any theological significance is missing so much, in my opinion.

When you read that last paragraph in #14 above, try this -- use (your word) 'space' in each place where I've written 'physics' and then possibly some more of what I'm saying may come across more clearly.

TimMcCollum · Jan 21, 2019

Halbhh said:
What you are referring to as 'space' is more commonly called 'physics' -- we understand in physics that mass, space, energy, all the stuff and spacetime, etc., that is this Universe, is physics in action. And this physics (reality, existence, space) came from somewhere, and that's where many of us think of God. But I'm comfortable if you personally want to call it 'space' instead of 'physics', and I'll just think 'physics' whenever you say 'space'. So, you could read post #14 that way (the inverse way).

I guess I may be misunderstanding what you're referring to as physics. To help clarify, would you say the emptiness of existence is what you're referring to?

Halbhh · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
Imagine the universe, with all the matter inside. Where all the planets, stars, and energy they produce reside. Take the matter away, what remains?

God.

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Exodus 3 NIV

TimMcCollum · Jan 21, 2019

Halbhh said:
God.

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Exodus 3 NIV

This is one of my favorite lines. It outlines our inability to understand Him.

Halbhh · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
This is one of my favorite lines. It outlines our inability to understand Him.

Me too. And the amazing and wonderful Isaiah chapter 55 touches that from another side (among other things it does).

redleghunter · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
I am a believer, but I did not know where else to post this topic.

I must first quote Genesis 1:1
Space had to exist before anything else could exist.

Then there's John 14:15-17
Specifically, when Jesus speaks of the Spirit being unseen and dwelling within us. As we all hopefully know by now, we are over 99% Space. It's a being that we exist inside of, and touches all beings. She guides me whilst I write at this moment.

Finally, in 1 Samuel 10:9-10 the Spirit touched Saul's heart. I've felt this before, and I know I'm not alone. It's an intense feeling that draws us to do something, and I couldn't imagine Space not having something to do with it. It would make so much more sense that Space is a "living" being who helps God fulfill His desires.

What do you think about this?

God created space. So no.

eleos1954 · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
I am a believer, but I did not know where else to post this topic.

I must first quote Genesis 1:1
Space had to exist before anything else could exist.

Then there's John 14:15-17
Specifically, when Jesus speaks of the Spirit being unseen and dwelling within us. As we all hopefully know by now, we are over 99% Space. It's a being that we exist inside of, and touches all beings. She guides me whilst I write at this moment.

Finally, in 1 Samuel 10:9-10 the Spirit touched Saul's heart. I've felt this before, and I know I'm not alone. It's an intense feeling that draws us to do something, and I couldn't imagine Space not having something to do with it. It would make so much more sense that Space is a "living" being who helps God fulfill His desires.

What do you think about this?

Holy Spirit is translated in the strongs as:

Greek & Hebrew translate the same:

Greek
pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Definition: wind, spirit
Usage: wind, breath, spirit.

TimMcCollum · Jan 21, 2019

redleghunter said:
God created space. So no.

God created Jesus too, so He couldn't be important.

redleghunter · Jan 21, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
God created Jesus too, so He couldn't be important.

No The Divine Logos is eternal with no beginning or end. Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the Divine Logos God the Son. He was not created.

John 1720 · Jan 23, 2019

.

TimMcCollum said:
I am a believer, but I did not know where else to post this topic.

I must first quote Genesis 1:1
Space had to exist before anything else could exist.

Then there's John 14:15-17
Specifically, when Jesus speaks of the Spirit being unseen and dwelling within us. As we all hopefully know by now, we are over 99% Space. It's a being that we exist inside of, and touches all beings. She guides me whilst I write at this moment.

Finally, in 1 Samuel 10:9-10 the Spirit touched Saul's heart. I've felt this before, and I know I'm not alone. It's an intense feeling that draws us to do something, and I couldn't imagine Space not having something to do with it. It would make so much more sense that Space is a "living" being who helps God fulfill His desires.

What do you think about this?

Hi Tim,
Space did not exist before the universe, nor does space exist without time. That is why scientists, since the advent of the theory of Relativity, call it space-time. Both time and space began at the instance of universe coming into being - on that point both theologians and scientists seem to agree, although the theologians proposed that a couple of milennia before the astrophysicists.
When we speak of the Spirit we are speaking of the eternal, immutable, omnipotent Spirit of God. He is before all time and space, just as the eternal transcends time - if that makes sense to you.
In Christ,
John 17:20

TimMcCollum · Jan 23, 2019

redleghunter said:
No The Divine Logos is eternal with no beginning or end. Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the Divine Logos God the Son. He was not created.

Right! But with the information presented, Jesus was born (created.) Yet, through further exploration we find his coming was foretold, and he may have even shown up in the Old Testament a couple times.

So how can you be so quick to say Space hasn't been around forever? God's "time" is not human time. His beginning may not be a beginning at all.

TimMcCollum · Jan 23, 2019

John 1720 said:
.
Hi Tim,
Space did not exist before the universe, nor does space exist without time. That is why scientists, since the advent of the theory of Relativity, call it space-time. Both time and space began at the instance of universe coming into being - on that point both theologians and scientists seem to agree, although the theologians proposed that a couple of milennia before the astrophysicists.
When we speak of the Spirit we are speaking of the eternal, immutable, omnipotent Spirit of God. He is before all time and space, just as the eternal transcends time - if that makes sense to you.
In Christ,
John 17:20

As humans, we have been wrong before. The problem I have with space-time is it's another concept made by mathematics, which has been shown to be flawed at massive and molecular scales. It doesn't make sense for everything in the universe to be compressed into one spot before it suddenly exploded. It makes much more sense that Space has always existed, and humans can't grasp that.

John 1720 · Jan 23, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
As humans, we have been wrong before. The problem I have with space-time is it's another concept made by mathematics, which has been shown to be flawed at massive and molecular scales. It doesn't make sense for everything in the universe to be compressed into one spot before it suddenly exploded. It makes much more sense that Space has always existed, and humans can't grasp that.

Hi Again Tim,
Well Space/time is definetly finite - about 28 billion parsecs across but still expanding. God, however, is eternal so I'm not sure how one gets to equating space with God, other than God created it. The Bible also tells us that God stretched out the heavens, which we first saw by evidence of the doppler effect and then by the COBE satellite, followed by at least 2 more confirmations.

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it.
My hands stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded.

Regards, John 17:20

TimMcCollum · Jan 23, 2019

John 1720 said:
Hi Again Tim,
Well Space/time is definetly finite - about 28 billion parsecs across but still expanding. God, however, is eternal so I'm not sure how one gets to equating space with God, other than God created it.

It makes much more sense, to me, that our observations out to that distance are flawed. Space is eternal, always has been, always will be. You can even argue that time itself is simply a measurement of motion. Concepts of past, present, and future are only happening inside our heads in this eternal Now.
Either way, God and the Holy Spirit have full control and touch all of us, whether we want Them to or not.

redleghunter · Jan 23, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
Right! But with the information presented, Jesus was born (created.) Yet, through further exploration we find his coming was foretold, and he may have even shown up in the Old Testament a couple times.

So how can you be so quick to say Space hasn't been around forever? God's "time" is not human time. His beginning may not be a beginning at all.

(1) God the Son the Divine Logos was Incarnate not created.

(2) God created time, space and matter when He said In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

TimMcCollum · Jan 24, 2019

redleghunter said:
(1) God the Son the Divine Logos was Incarnate not created.

(2) God created time, space and matter when He said In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Maybe it is literal, maybe it isn't.

John 1720 · Jan 24, 2019

TimMcCollum said:
It makes much more sense, to me, that our observations out to that distance are flawed. Space is eternal, always has been, always will be. You can even argue that time itself is simply a measurement of motion. Concepts of past, present, and future are only happening inside our heads in this eternal Now.
Either way, God and the Holy Spirit have full control and touch all of us, whether we want Them to or not.

Hi Tim,
Well I can understand how one might conjecture that space/time is infinite at first glance. While this was never the view of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam most Eastern religions actually thought so too. Even the majority of scientists up until Hubble had similar thoughts before the evidence mounted. Albert Einstein, a great mind, originally conjectured as you are doing now; at least until he was able to confirm the evidence of Hubble. However, once he was convinced by the empirical truths that he saw for himself he then reformed his view to the one I mentioned in my post. Now science confirms the universe had a definite beginning and this has advanced their understanding. We are now able to see its afterbirth painted across every corner of the heavens. Therefore it is best to study the evidence more deeply than simply the summary I provided. We actually did some threads on this a ways back but you may want to start with COBE, which confirmed Hubble's doppler effect on an expanding universe as well as the birth of universe.

NASA - COBE Satellite Marks 20th Anniversary

Of course my faith in the eternal truths really rests in God's word rather than science. This is because science can never understand the eternal nature of God. It can only explore the physical characteristics of time and space since it is locked into that domain alone. The Bible says the heaven testify to God's handiwork so the truths of physical science even in the confines of space-time can reveal God's glory. Therefore science, limited as it is, increases my awe of God and that is good. As beautiful as the wonders of the universe are, however, His salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord is much more amazing to behold.
In Christ, John 17:20

TimMcCollum · Jan 24, 2019

John 1720 said:
Hi Tim,
Well I can understand how one might conjecture that space/time is infinite at first glance. While this was never the view of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam most Eastern religions actually thought so too. Even the majority of scientists up until Hubble had similar thoughts before the evidence mounted. Albert Einstein, a great mind, originally conjectured as you are doing now; at least until he was able to confirm the evidence of Hubble. However, once he was convinced by the empirical truths that he saw for himself he then reformed his view to the one I mentioned in my post. Now science confirms the universe had a definite beginning and this has advanced their understanding. We are now able to see its afterbirth painted across every corner of the heavens. Therefore it is best to study the evidence more deeply than simply the summary I provided. We actually did some threads on this a ways back but you may want to start with COBE, which confirmed Hubble's doppler effect on an expanding universe as well as the birth of universe.

NASA - COBE Satellite Marks 20th Anniversary

Of course my faith in the eternal truths really rests in God's word rather than science. This is because science can never understand the eternal nature of God. It can only explore the physical characteristics of time and space since it is locked into that domain alone. The Bible says the heaven testify to God's handiwork so the truths of physical science even in the confines of space-time can reveal God's glory. Therefore science, limited as it is, increases my awe of God and that is good. As beautiful as the wonders of the universe are, however, His salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord is much more amazing to behold.
In Christ, John 17:20

I will have to look into it more. Philosophically it doesn't make sense, but maybe there is something to the evidence. It has been shown that light can only travel so far through Space before it dissipates and can't be seen. I've spoken with a couple professors who themselves don't believe in the Big Bang. This is where my initial doubts of the whole matter come from.

And yes, the Trinity are amazing.

TimMcCollum · Jan 24, 2019

John 1720 said:
NASA - COBE Satellite Marks 20th Anniversary

I looked into the link. Microwaves are light waves, which cooperates with my understanding that light can only reach so far. But I will look more into it!

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