Justification by Works?

doubtingmerle said:

Ah, so when Paul said if you believe and don't work you are still counted righteous, he meant to say the opposite, that if you believe and don't work you will be rejected?

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I have already mentioned that the first thing one needs to do is having the faith that justifies, the one that enters you into the New Covenant, but if you don't do works then the faith is dead.

doubtingmerle said:

I quoted it in the OP: Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."

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Thanks for the clarification. The "works" mentioned in v.5 refers to the type of works mentioned in v.1 - i.e. works of the flesh. We are not justified by works of the flesh done in our own strength as there is no boasting in that. However, we are justified by works (done out of obedience to God) and not by faith alone (James 2:24) which we were created to do (Ephesians 2:10).

doubtingmerle said:

Ah, so when Paul said if you believe and don't work you are still counted righteous, he meant to say the opposite, that if you believe and don't work you will be rejected?

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It is possible to undertake things in our own strength. Whether that comes from well-meaning suggestions or an idea we've had. Our work for the Lord (that He assigns) will bear His equipping and anointing. Here's a real life example.

A church official suggests I lead a bible study. The recommendation is in reference to my background, experience, and involvement in other areas. It is never confirmed by the Holy Spirit and I have no desire to do so. If I undertook this it would be a work of a flesh. It is well-meaning but wholly wrong.

Compare that with an interest in photography which developed through a very good eye. I purchased a camera and began teaching myself how to use it. And that required me to fiddle with Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop. I enjoyed doing both and was never bored. This led to a deeper interest in design and the realization of its connection to my childhood. I enjoyed dressing dolls and decorating dollhouses. I'm pursuing training and developing a business around those subjects with the Holy Spirit's assistance.

Notice the difference between the two. The first example was errant and frequently suggested. I considered attending divinity school. They assumed I was called to teach but didn't consider its application. Thankfully the Holy Spirit stepped in.

Whereas the second path is different. It's been a lifelong interest that was developed in my childhood. Although I lack proficiency I've been willing to learn on my own and pursue additional instruction. The Lord has provided a blueprint for the business and placed a burden in my spirit for those who'd need my services. I have a clear ministry and a flock that I'm called to address. The clarity and passion that was absent in the first scenario is overflowing in the other.

It would be impossible to sustain either without the Lord's involvement. The first is a service unto men and the second is unto the Lord. It is the better way.

doubtingmerle said:

As, so Romans 4:5 really means, "But to him that [does works of obedience instead of works of the flesh, and] believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I wander why Romans 4:5 says "worketh not" when it really means "does works of obedience instead of works of the flesh". That makes no sense.

John 5:24 says, " He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. ". That promises that everyone that believes will not come into judgment. You seem to disagree with John. You seem to think that some that believe do come into judgement, even though John says they don't.

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"If you love me, obey my commandments. (John 14:15)

doubtingmerle said:

...keep my commandments or else...

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Or else what?

doubtingmerle said:

..or else you burn in hell forever.

That is what this is about, yes? People are taught to follow a list of commands lest they burn in hell forever.

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Well, my Church, the Orthodox Church, does not believe that

doubtingmerle said:

Ok, what happens if I don't follow your list of commands?

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From a secular perspective, you turn into an increasingly terrible person and create your own personal hell. From a religious perspective, this could have eternal consequences.

doubtingmerle said:

Ok, what happens if I don't follow your list of commands?

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It's not about following them, it's about getting closer to God, if you don't do it theb you refuse spiritual medicine and it creates your own hell.

doubtingmerle said:

As, so Romans 4:5 really means, "But to him that [does works of obedience instead of works of the flesh, and] believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I wander why Romans 4:5 says "worketh not" when it really means "does works of obedience instead of works of the flesh". That makes no sense.

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You are conflating two different things. The Romans 4 passage is only referring to works done in our own strength which of course is nothing to boast about as it accounts for nothing. Romans 4 is not referring to works of obedience to God - which do account for something.

doubtingmerle said:

John 5:24 says, " He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. ". That promises that everyone that believes will not come into judgment. You seem to disagree with John. You seem to think that some that believe do come into judgement, even though John says they don't.

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I agree with John. Upon genuine belief, a person does pass out from death unto life. However, that is only the beginning as Scripture also states that we must "fight the good fight," "finish the race," "work out our salvation with fear and trembing." You quote Jn 5:24 but neglect to cite Hebrews 5:9 which states that obeying God is also required for eternal life. No obedience = no salvation.

The main point that the writer of James and Paul are getting across is that you cannot simply believe in God as even demons believe. But at the same time, merely doing good deeds for personal glory and not because it is the right thing to do or to please God is also folly. In order to show you really believe in God, you would do works not for yourself, but for the sake of others and to please God. This gives you a good character and hence why justification is by character in my opinion.

Lost4words said:

Faith, without works is dead. Even the devil has faith in God!

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Absurd. The demons believe and they ...Shudder...they do not trust God. Greek word for faith is "Pistis" which is interpreted "Trust."

Satan doesn't trust God.

Amazingly there were three likes.

This is one of many passages that appear in conflict. Paul seems to consistently argue for trust as opposed to works, and James seems to say the opposite. But look again at James “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10). Does that sound like a guy advocating following the law or piling up good works?

In God’s view, there are only two kinds of people: innocent and guilty. One violation of the Law—just one sin—makes you guilty.

Further James contrasts those who have intellectual assent but no works that demonstrate they actually live out what they believe and compares them with Demons. They believe and ... shudder. They are not transformed by that belief and start trusting God and serving Him and produce good works. Demons have enormous knowledge of God but don't trust him and have nothing to do with God's plan to bring goodness to the world. Neither do the Christians who don't mature and live consistently with their beliefs.

So clearly, when we gather the textual data we see that Paul deals with how one enters the relationship with God, through repentance and trust. Then James, who is addressing Christians, says don't be Christians In Name Only. Actually live out your faith as Abraham did.

Paul in Romans is engaging what is known as soteriology or salvation (how we enter into a relationship with God) and James is discussing how we mature as a Christian as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10:
"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works,10 For we are God’s handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Verses 8 and 9 are related to salvation, verse 10 has to do with sanctification. James context is how NOT TO SCREW UP operating as Christians by just misrepresenting Christianity as a collection of beliefs!

Without him placing his son on the altar, Abraham's 'faith' would have been incomplete! Thus, he combined faith, with 'works', proving that faith without works, as James said, is dead.