Eschatology for dummies :)

worshipjunkie said:

Would it be possible, for us newbies, to get a thread explaining these schools of thought and terminology? Preferably one without debate- just a plain boring explanation of things. I know what I believe, and I know some of the terms, but others are completely new to me. Thanks!

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I would recommend you remember there are three major divisions in the Revelation; seals, trumpets and vials of wrath. Thaat greatly simplified the book for me. The rapture is just a word indicating the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns.

For example, the first four seals Rev. 6 are the four horsemen symbolizing the rise of thhe antichrist, the fifth seal are the martyrs beneath the altar and the sixth is devastating judgment, the 7th is silence. Its actually simple if you let it be.

Biblewriter said:

Jerome called futurism “the traditional interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church.”

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Here's what Jerome said:

"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, that is, the king of Egypt, the king of [North] Africa, and the king of Ethiopia, as we shall show more clearly in our later discussion. Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor. "And behold," he continues, "there were eyes like unto human eyes in that horn." Let us not follow the opinion of some commentators and suppose him to be either the Devil or some demon, but rather, one of the human race, in whom Satan will wholly take up his residence in bodily form. ". . .and a mouth uttering overweening boasts..." (cf. II Thess. 2). For this is the man of sin, the son (668) of perdition, and that too to such a degree that he dares to sit in the temple of God, making himself out to be like God."


With the exception of “...at the end of the world...”, this is a virtually classic statement of the historicist position. Since the Roman Empire of which Daniel spoke no longer exists, futurism must manufacture a futurized re-created Roman Empire, Roman ten kingdoms, et al. Jerome, conversely, recognized that the extant Roman Empire of his own day, and the geopolitical and religious events associated with its dissolution and re-emergence over ensuing centuries as the apostate papacy, were what the commentators had been anticipating. Had Jerome and said commentators survived to the time of the Reformation, they would, with the Reformers, have recognized the fulfillments of Daniel's predictions and descriptions. The only misapprehension of Jerome et al was that these fulfillments would coincide with the end of the world in its entirety. They ultimately did, of course, culminate with the Reformation in the end of the apostate papal world of its era, as history records.

Jerome et al were demonstrably more historicist than futurist in their prophetic understanding.

Douggg said:

David, would you accept if changed to - gained its strength in the time of the 16th century reformation movement which resulted in the formation of protestant churches?

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Luther came to the same conclusion independently. At the Diet of Worms, Luther was accused o0f being a Hussite. He denied that, but then realised he didn't know what Huss taught, so on the nthirf day he went into the Library and read Huss. He realised that Huss taught the same as him. He went into the next session and said "Yes I am a Hussite." Of course it gained momentum after the reformation due to the intoduction of printing.

mark kennedy said:

For example, the first four seals Rev. 6 are the four horsemen symbolizing the rise of thhe antichrist, the fifth seal are the martyrs beneath the altar and the sixth is devastating judgment, the 7th is silence. Its actually simple if you let it be.

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One interpretation, but not the best.
The historical teaching is that the four horsemen represent four stages of the Roman Empire immediately after the four churches.

David Kent said:

One interpretation, but not the best.
The historical teaching is that the four horsemen represent four stages of the Roman Empire immediately after the four churches.

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That's not an interpretation, that's an exposition, there is a big difference. My view of Revelations is pretty straight forward, seals at the beginning (Rev. ch. 1-7). Trumpets in the middle (Rev. ch. 8-14), vials of wrath toward the end (Rev. ch. 15-21). Of course there are a lot of other things going on obviously, but that's a general outline. Toward the end of the Trumpet blasts the two witnesses finish their testimony in Jerusalem that ends after 3 1/2 years. Between the seals and the Trumpets, the Trumpets and the Vials are considerable periods of time. During those times it's all conquest and plunder

The Four Horsemen are the same guy, the first four seals represent the rise of the Antichrist. The fifth seal reveal the martyrs beneath the altar asking how long will God wait to avenge their blood. The sixth seal is cataclysmic wrath and they all hide in the dens and caves of the rocks to hid from the 'Lamb'. In the opening scenes the Antichrist is seen as the World Conqueror, followed by World War, World Famine and finally World Plague. It's all the same guy but at the same time he is raising an army and creating a terrible mess. The Antichrist, a term not actually used in the Revelation, features prominently in eschatology. The word translated 'tribulation' is more often used in Scripture to speak of persecution:

Terms to know with regards to the end times, 'tribulation', 'the great tribulation' 'antichrist' (man of sin, little horn, the beast from the sea), 'the time of Jacob's trouble' and 'abomination of desolation'. That greatly simplifies the eschatology and avoids the trappings of allegorizing the text.

In the OP #worshipjunkie called for a simplified explanation of the text along with key terms. That's what I've attempted to provide here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

That's not an interpretation, that's an exposition, there is a big difference. My view of Revelations is pretty straight forward, seals at the beginning (Rev. ch. 1-7). Trumpets in the middle (Rev. ch. 8-14), vials of wrath toward the end (Rev. ch. 15-21). Of course there are a lot of other things going on obviously, but that's a general outline. Toward the end of the Trumpet blasts the two witnesses finish their testimony in Jerusalem that ends after 3 1/2 years. Between the seals and the Trumpets, the Trumpets and the Vials are considerable periods of time. During those times it's all conquest and plunder

The Four Horsemen are the same guy, the first four seals represent the rise of the Antichrist. The fifth seal reveal the martyrs beneath the alter asking how long will God wait to avenge their blood. The sixth seal is cataclysmic wrath and they all hide in the dens and caves of the rocks to hid from the 'Lamb'. In the opening scenes the Antichrist is seen as the World Conqueror, followed by World War, World Famine and finally World Plague. It's all the same guy but at the same time he is raising an army and creating a terrible mess. The Antichrist, a term not actually used in the Revelation, features prominently in eschatology. The word translated 'tribulation' is more often used in Scripture to speak of persecution:

Tribulation (θλῖψις, thlē'-psēs G2347) In Revelation 7:14, “the great tribulation”, RV, lit., “the tribulation, the great one” (not as KJV, without the article), is not that in which all saints share; it indicates a definite period spoken of by the Lord in Matthew 24:21; Mark 13:19; where the time is mentioned as preceding His second advent, and as a period in which the Jewish nation, restored to Palestine in unbelief by gentile instrumentality, will suffer an unprecedented out burst of fury on the part of antichristian powers confederate under the Man of Sin (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Revelation 12:13-17); in this tribulation gentile witnesses for God will share (Revelation 7:9), but it will be distinctly “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7), its beginning is signalized by the setting up of the ‘abomination of desolation” (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14, with Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11).

Note: For the verb thlibo, in the passive voice rendered “suffer tribulation: in 1 Thessalonians 3:4, KJV (RV ‘suffer affliction’) (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
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Terms to know with regards to the end times, 'tribulation', 'the great tribulation' 'antichrist' (man of sin, little horn, the beast from the sea), 'the time of Jacob's trouble' and 'abomination of desolation'. That greatly simplifies the eschatology and avoids the trappings of allegorizing the text.

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It is still only an interpretation.

David Kent said:

It is still only an interpretation.

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No, I haven't gotten to interpretive challenges, the exposition will not change regardless of your interpretation or in your case, allegorization.

mark kennedy said:

No, I haven't gotten to interpretive challenges, the exposition will not change regardless of your interpretation or in your case, allegorization.

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No more an allegorisation than your interpretation.

David Kent said:

No more an allegorisation than your interpretation.

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Your using the terms interchangeably, they couldn't be more different. What I've offered is a basis for an outline of the book based on the simple, straight forward narrative. It looks something like this:

Seals:

Trumpets:

Vials of Wrath:

New Creation:
For a more thorough exposition you would have to explore the Levitical laws of sacrifice and the feasts. There is also a rather extensive cross exposition required for the quoting of the prophets and the imagery communicated in the Revelation. But regardless of your interpretation or allegorization, Dispensational or Covenant theology, pre, mid or post tribulation rapture, the exposition will stand. That is the difference between an exposition and an interpretation or allegorization, an exposition simply explores the content of the text with regards to the natural context of the narrative.

Because I take the 4 horsemen as 4 stages in the Roman Empire, you say I am allegorising, whatever you take them to be, you are also allegoisiing.

Remember the book of Revelation is written to the church, not the Jews. It is written to the church and concerns the church.

• Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

In Revelation 1:1 we see that it is written to the church "Which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass " His servants, believers..

• Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his agel unto his servant John.

You will; also see from verse 1 that it is "signified" that is it is told by signs or figures or symbols. These include various signs and pictures and sometimes John acting out the sign on behalf of the church.

Biblewriter said:

FUTURISTS agree that SOME prophecies have been fulfilled.

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Can you Name even one?

I've never found a professed futurist who applies a 1st-century fulfillment to ANY end times eschatological prophecy with any consistency.

What (if any) end times prophesies do you believe were fulfilled in the 1st century?

parousia70 said:

Can you Name even one?

I've never found a professed futurist who applies a 1st-century fulfillment to ANY end times eschatological prophecy with any consistency.

What (if any) end times prophesies do you believe were fulfilled in the 1st century?

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zero

Biblewriter said:

zero

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Ok so when you said:
“futurists agree some prophesies have been fulfilled” were you just mistaken?

parousia70 said:

Ok so when you said:
“futurists agree some prophesies have been fulfilled” were you just mistaken?

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No, for not all prophecies are about the end times.

Futurists agree, for instance, that all of Daniel 11, up to verse 35, has been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But verse 35 says, "until the time of the end," and none of the rest has taken place.

They agree that all of Daniel 9, up to verse 26, had been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But none of the rest has been fulfilled.

And they agree that all 0f the prophecies about the Messiah coming as a meek and suffering servant who would die for His people have been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But none of the prophecies about Him coming as a mighty, conquering hero who would deliver Israel from her enemies, have been fulfilled.

Biblewriter said:

They agree that all of Daniel 9, up to verse 26, had been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But none of the rest has been fulfilled.

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The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

Biblewriter said:

No, for not all prophecies are about the end times.

Futurists agree, for instance, that all of Daniel 11, up to verse 35, has been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But verse 35 says, "until the time of the end," and none of the rest has taken place.

They agree that all of Daniel 9, up to verse 26, had been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But none of the rest has been fulfilled.

And they agree that all 0f the prophecies about the Messiah coming as a meek and suffering servant who would die for His people have been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But none of the prophecies about Him coming as a mighty, conquering hero who would deliver Israel from her enemies, have been fulfilled.

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Well, duh.... ALL Christians believe some prophecies are fulfilled... even Christians who hold no particular eschatology...virgin birth, riding a donkey, being called Emmanuel (whoops... maybe not that one)

So that's kinda moot don't ya think?

Are we not discussing eschatology?

Douggg said:

______

The concept of the Antichrist is the most misunderstood concept in Christianity (and outside of Christianity).

When being the Antichrist is properly understood it eliminates nearly every end times theory out there.

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Agreed but mostly by futurists.

Christ is head of the church and antichrisdt takes hias place in the church, the Pope. The reformers and pre reformers understood that, but today's genuses don't. The Jesuits brought in futerism and pretyerism to counter that teaching and till the beginning of the 19th century they mostly succeded. However since then most Christians have been caught by the Jesuits, hook, line and sinker.

David Kent said:

Agreed but mostly by futurists.

Christ is head of the church and antichrisdt takes hias place in the church, the Pope. The reformers and pre reformers understood that, but today's genuses don't. The Jesuits brought in futerism and pretyerism to counter that teaching and till the beginning of the 19th century they mostly succeded. However since then most Christians have been caught by the Jesuits, hook, line and sinker.

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The claim that the Jesuits invented futurism has been thoroughly disproved, again and again. It was, in actual fact, the standard doctrine of the early church. They taught an end time Antichrist, a return of the Jews to their homeland, their conversion after they returned, and a millennium. And they clearly taught that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled.

David Kent said:

Agreed but mostly by futurists.

Christ is head of the church and antichrisdt takes hias place in the church, the Pope. The reformers and pre reformers understood that, but today's genuses don't. The Jesuits brought in futerism and pretyerism to counter that teaching and till the beginning of the 19th century they mostly succeded. However since then most Christians have been caught by the Jesuits, hook, line and sinker.

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Hi David, the flaw with that being the concept of the Antichrist, is that John in 1John2:18 was likening some in his day to coming Antichrist by calling them antichrists because they had left the church, no longer part of the church, no longer stating that Jesus was the messiah, the Father and Son, denying that Jesus was God come in the flesh.

What you are describing is someone who is claiming to be the head of the church - that is, still in the church. The Pope is not denying the deity of Christ.

I thought I have given you an example of someone I consider to be an antichrist as Yusuf Estes, ex-pastor who left Christianity to become a muslim, who denies that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Biblewriter said:

Futurists agree, for instance, that all of Daniel 11, up to verse 35, has been fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But verse 35 says, "until the time of the end," and none of the rest has taken place.

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The time of the end of what. The prophecy is about the Greek kingdoms and the time of the end is the end of the Greek kingdoms. Verse 36 follows on the historical drama without a gap.