Shutdown Poll

Bobber said:

President Trump is he Commander and Chief over the security of the nation. It's his No 1 mandate to oversee the security of the nation. If that genuinely is at risk than maybe other games as you call them need to be broken instead of giving up on he thinks best to achieve what he feels is imperative on his watch.

Click to expand...

There is no national emergency. Being Commander in Chief is not his only job.

Vicomte13 said:

Trump's base is fine if the government stays shutdown forever. They're small government types. They notice that the government's been shutdown for a month with no effect on anything they care about, so they are of the mind "Let's make it PERMANENT!" Trump's not under any real pressure at all to get the government reopen. There are benefits to its closure for him and much of his base.

So if the Left is waiting for Trump to cave, they have fundamentally misread the situation. Trump isn't suffering. He is benefiting from the shutdown, and his base is happy. The longer it goes, the happier they will be.

Click to expand...

We'll see. According to David Stockman, the economy is on the brink of going down.

Trump's fiscal policy an 'abomination,' says Reagan budget head

camille70 said:

We'll see. According to David Stockman, the economy is on the brink of going down.

Trump's fiscal policy an 'abomination,' says Reagan budget head

Click to expand...

Trample Down Economics.

As the effects of the TSA slowdown, tourism losses due to Park closures, unpaid bills, etc. pile up ....... Hey! How about another tax cut for the wealthy? That will fix everything.

Ringo84 said:

On the contrary, there are a lot of negatives. Among them is the fact that a majority of Americans don't want a border wall, as the polling I posted above indicates. Neither do border agents, as another source I posted says.

Click to expand...

Are those the same polling sources that suggested Hillary would win by a landslide? Please... There's an unequivocal bias of the MSM against Trump. Whether their sample source is skewed or they flat out change the numbers, they're far from believable.

Ringo84 said:

You try to "disprove" the arguments against the wall by posting a lot of stuff that neither I nor anyone else said. In actuality, Donny's vaunted wall doesn't even fix what it's supposed to fix.

For example, a wall across the entire border won't stop the influx of drugs:
Trump Says Border Wall Will Stop Drugs. Here’s What a DEA Intel Report Says.

Click to expand...

The goal is to point out that there are no negatives to building the wall. It can only be beneficial for the security of America.

There's just as much government support for the wall as against it: Border Patrol agents back Trump wall, survey finds

Ringo84 said:

The tales of violence against women are highly exaggerated and, as it turns out, the majority of smugglers are citizens:
Trump’s tales about gagged women are misleading Americans about human trafficking, experts say | The Star

Click to expand...

Really?! There are dozens of videos and articles that suggest otherwise. A quick search of the "Reality of the journey to America" in YouTube may help enlighten you. And even if they are "misleading" (which I'm sure they're not - in fact it's probably worse than we know) are those that it actually happens to less important? Or do you just not care if it only happens to some of the girls?

Ringo84 said:

This is not even getting into the fact that we have been repeatedly and shamelessly lied to about the source of funding for this wall. We were told Mexico was going to pay for it. This was always unrealistic pabulum, but spending "only" $5.7 billion dollars that could be spent elsewhere is a betrayal of what he promised.

Click to expand...

No intelligent person expected Mexico to write a check, wire money, or send pesos to the US Government. Mexico will pay through the new USMCA deal (once ratified).

Ringo84 said:

Shutting down the government and inflicting deliberate pain on government workers is not "putting country over party". It's throwing a temper tantrum over a wall that very few people want.

Click to expand...

Government wouldn't be shutdown if Democrats truly believed in National Security and didn't want open borders by defying the wall. Again, it's common sense that a wall will do nothing but increase the security of our border. I understand the difficulty this is causing on the affected government employees, but at least it's temporary. The lives lost because of murder from illegal aliens will never be recovered. Going back to the goodness of the American people and companies, there are many banks/credit unions offering interest free loans to those workers not getting paid. There are landlords not charging rent. Those employees will be paid back.

And again, "that very few people want" is an opinion of a very biased media.

Random1234 said:

Are those the same polling sources that suggested Hillary would win by a landslide? Please... There's an unequivocal bias of the MSM against Trump. Whether their sample source is skewed or they flat out change the numbers, they're far from believable.

Click to expand...

If you're whining about "bias" in the "MSM" because you don't like the polling, you're more likely than not losing the argument.

The goal is to point out that there are no negatives to building the wall. It can only be beneficial for the security of America.

There's just as much government support for the wall as against it: Border Patrol agents back Trump wall, survey finds


Really?! There are dozens of videos and articles that suggest otherwise. A quick search of the "Reality of the journey to America" in YouTube may help enlighten you. And even if they are "misleading" (which I'm sure they're not - in fact it's probably worse than we know) are those that it actually happens to less important? Or do you just not care if it only happens to some of the girls?

Click to expand...

Oh well... a Youtube video says it, so that must trump a New York Times article.

No intelligent person expected Mexico to write a check, wire money, or send pesos to the US Government. Mexico will pay through the new USMCA deal (once ratified).

Click to expand...

No, Mexico isn't paying for wall through Trump's trade deal

And:
https://www.vox.com/world/2019/1/9/18174008/trump-border-wall-usmca-trade-deal

And:
Is Mexico Paying for the Wall Through USMCA? - FactCheck.org

So Donny lied about Mexico paying for the wall, and he's lying now about YMCA or whatever it is paying for it.

Government wouldn't be shutdown if Democrats truly believed in National Security

Click to expand...

Senate GOP blocks bill to reopen Homeland Security

Again, it's common sense that a wall will do nothing but increase the security of our border.

Click to expand...

That's not "common sense" at all since it's not supported by any facts.

I understand the difficulty this is causing on the affected government employees, but at least it's temporary.

Click to expand...

It's not "temporary" when you can't pay your mortgage, or afford to feed your kids, or you're out of work so long that you decide to just quit and move on. That has long lasting consequences, both for struggling families and for the economy.

The lives lost because of murder from illegal aliens will never be recovered.

Click to expand...

The Myth of the Criminal Immigrant

And:
The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts and Illegal Immigrant Crime: The Facts

And:
Is Illegal Immigration Linked to More or Less Crime? - FactCheck.org

The idea that illegal aliens bring crime and violence is a myth.

And again, "that very few people want" is an opinion of a very biased media.

Click to expand...

Nope. It's the opinion of a majority of Americans. The fact that you refuse to accept that doesn't change the facts at hand.

Or, to put it another way: you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
Ringo

Just like heading into Election night 2016, Trump is looking at different poll numbers than his detractors, and he’s very confident in them. He thinks he’s winning the point and reinforcing his base. Those who believe that Trump is feeling weak, exposed and vulnerable in this shutdown are fundamentally misreading the man, and are going to continue to be mystifies by his actions. They do not understand their enemy.

NotreDame said:

Who is blaming the Dems? I’m incredulous the Dems furloughed are blaming the Dems.

According to some polling data, Trump is, by the majority polled, blaming Trump for the government shutdown. Polls agree: Americans don't like shutdown and they blame Trump

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2019/1/13/18180862/shutdown-polls-blame-trump-gop-partisan-divide

I also find culpability for the government shutdown rests with Trump. In part because Trump initially indicated he would sign the Senate bill without any wall funding, but reneged.



Optimistic. If the polling data is accurate, and remains the same in 2020, with the government shutdown extending to the 2020 election, Trump’s chances for re-election aren’t “enhanced.”

Click to expand...

Let’s see how it plays out. Trump took credit for the shutdown before it started. He’s feeling good about it. It doesnt look like the Dems are going to back down, and Trump won’t, so we could be looking at a two year shutdown. After a certain point Trump will invoke the Reduction In Force regulations to start permanently laying off furloughed employees. The People in 2020 will have a very interesting choice to make.

cow451 said:

Trumps base must not get out much.

Click to expand...

They’re half the country. There is very little communication or understanding between the two sides.

camille70 said:

We'll see. According to David Stockman, the economy is on the brink of going down.

Trump's fiscal policy an 'abomination,' says Reagan budget head

Click to expand...

It could all crash and burn. That’s true. And if it does, the Dems will blame Trump, and Trump will blame the Dems, so well have two years of ballooning calamity before we have an election that sweeps one, or both, parties away. It’s certainly interesting to watch.

Vicomte13 said:

Just like heading into Election night 2016, Trump is looking at different poll numbers than his detractors, and he’s very confident in them. He thinks he’s winning the point and reinforcing his base. Those who believe that Trump is feeling weak, exposed and vulnerable in this shutdown are fundamentally misreading the man, and are going to continue to be mystifies by his actions. They do not understand their enemy.

Click to expand...

Trump lives in constant fear and insecurity. Whether he’s worse now is unlikely given this is his norm.

His enemies understand him better than in 2016 and no longer fear him.

Vicomte13 said:

They’re half the country. There is very little communication or understanding between the two sides.

Click to expand...

His base is at best one-third. The ones that have to use air travel or rely on government agencies are going to be feeling a pinch going forward.

SimplyMe said:

I'd suggest it is found here, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." On top of this, the Constitution states, "Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it."

In essence, the Constitution says the House and Senate should pass the bills, then send them to the President; then if the President doesn't approve he can veto. It says nothing about not voting on bills because the President doesn't like them. While you can argue that the President, because he has the veto, should have a voice in the process, that isn't what the Constitution states. To me, a good argument could be made, based on a strict (or originalist) reading of the Constitution, that Sen. McConnell is shirking his duty under the Constitution; that the Founders always intended that the Congress be of equal power to the President, and not to be beholden or a "rubber stamp" for the President.

Click to expand...

I'd suggest it is found here, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." On top of this, the Constitution states, "Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it."

Click to expand...

Too bad there’s not one word in the above language stating the Senate MUST do anything, or SHOULD, do anything. Neither is there any language in the above quoted part of Article 1, Section 8, that the Senate or House, must do anything. I’d be remiss if I also forgot to mention, there’s no language stating under these circumstances the Senate or Senate majority leader should act or behave in some particular manner.

The language you cited does nothing more than enumerate powers to be exercised, there’s nothing there that command those powers to be exercised or how and when they are to be exercised.

In essence, the Constitution says the House and Senate should pass the bills

Click to expand...

No, there’s not one line containing the word “should.” Not one. The provisions you cited merely enumerates the powers given, the provisions do not state the Senate or Congress “should” do anything.

It says nothing about not voting on bills because the President doesn't like them.

Click to expand...

Congress is vested with discretionary power to make laws, and a corollary to that discretion is the power not to make or pass any specific law. The Constitution doesn’t mandate Congress to pass any specific law or laws.

To me, a good argument could be made, based on a strict (or originalist) reading of the Constitution, that Sen. McConnell is shirking his duty under the Constitution

Click to expand...

There isn’t any “good” Originalist argument or Strict Constructionist argument for your view. None. The plain text of the Constitution doesn’t support your view.

that the Founders always intended that the Congress be of equal power to the President, and not to be beholden or a "rubber stamp" for the President.

Click to expand...

This is a bad argument in so many ways. First, being a “rubber stamp” doesn’t eradicate the fact the Congress/Senate is a co-equal branch of government under the Constitution. Congress/Senate is still vested with and retains ALL its powers under the Constitution, even when acting as a “rubber stamp.”

Second, your argument suffers from a lack of clarity of the meaning of the terms “beholden” and “rubber stamp.” What do those words mean in this context of a relationship between Congress/Senate and the President? How are the meaning applicable to these facts and why?

Third, plausibly, under these facts Congress/Senate isn’t acting as a “rubber stamp” or “beholden” to the President. In fact, just the opposite as the President IS NOT getting what he wants from the Senate or Congress.

The Beatles Eye Roll GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY

Seems to me that splitting hairs over "should" versus "must" is missing the point: that the Senate is serving as a rubber stamp to an unpopular agenda that doesn't represent a majority of the American people, and they should correct course because we need an open government.
Ringo

Paulos23 said:

I cast my vote of 36+ as a joke, but now I am wishing it will not come to pass.

Click to expand...

Trump is in no hurry. Freeze all his accounts. And take all his keys. Lock him out of the White house. Maybe he might stop the shut down. And I say the same for the Congress .

Ringo84 said:

The Beatles Eye Roll GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY

Seems to me that splitting hairs over "should" versus "must" is missing the point: that the Senate is serving as a rubber stamp to an unpopular agenda that doesn't represent a majority of the American people, and they should correct course because we need an open government.
Ringo

Click to expand...

You could write the Republican response using your same words just by shifting the issue. American parties and their ways of thinking are two peas in a pod. From the 80,000 foot view, this is all over whether Donald will get his Wall funding. The answer is that he will, in exchange for a permanent extension of DACA.

Vicomte13 said:

You could write the Republican response using your same words just by shifting the issue.

Click to expand...

Except that Republicans - not Democrats - are the reason the government has been closed for over a month.

American parties and their ways of thinking are two peas in a pod. From the 80,000 foot view, this is all over whether Donald will get his Wall funding. The answer is that he will, in exchange for a permanent extension of DACA.

Click to expand...

First of all, the ""deal"" was not for a permanent extension. It was for a three year extension for DACA, among other poison pills that Democrats were not likely to accept. They did not, so the answer to whether Donny will get his monument to racism is likely 'no'.
Ringo

Ringo84 said:

Except that Republicans - not Democrats - are the reason the government has been closed for over a month.

Click to expand...

From a guy who has been furloughed (my wife too) for 30 days+ There is plenty of blame to go on both sides.

Kinda reminds me of the trench warfare of WW1. Both sides are dug in and not moving. And they keep tossing mustard gas canisters at each other.

Dave-W said:

From a guy who has been furloughed (my wife too) for 30 days+ There is plenty of blame to go on both sides.

Click to expand...

https://i.imgflip.com/9j156.gif
Ringo

evoeth said:

If by "both sides" you mean Ann Coulter and Trump.

Click to expand...

Pelosi and Trump.