Demons - real or not?

JacksBratt

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Sir, if your entire argument was discrediting good people being saved

I think that this is you biggest concern... Good people going to hell... and evil people being granted forgiveness and eternal life.

Am I right?

Well, this is a very human and logical point of view. In our minds.. it makes no sense.
It goes against our heart.... Nice people... in hell. Just plain wrong.

I get it.

This is However a lie of Satan. Good people do not, as Satan will try to tell you, go to heaven. Sinners Go to heaven when they have been washed clean by the blood of their savior.

You have indicated, in your avatar, that you are Catholic. I mean no offense, as sometimes I can come across that way when dealing with Catholic theology, but... I don't see a lot of Catholicism in your arguments.

Most Catholics are very strong on the life of Christ and have no trouble with His Holiness and give Him great respect and honor His authority.

Have you ever conversed and discussed these topics with your priest?
 
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Cis.jd

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I think that this is you biggest concern... Good people going to hell... and evil people being granted forgiveness and eternal life.

Not granted eternal life, but getting a free pass with out any justice being given. Sad thing is, the majority of christians today exhibit the worst behaviors in comparison to non-believers that is rather horrible to think these people are better while the opposite is damned all because of their ignorance.

You claim the lies of satan, but i see this more of a lie from satan that God is this Kim Jong of the sky that you must submit to him or he will kill you. The Bible has given a great amount of verses as to how everyone will be judged accordingly to what they did.
Read verses 1 Cor 3:15, Col 1:22-24, the verse in with Jesus talking to the Rich man and that Revelation verses you posted.. we can discuss that after.

You have indicated, in your avatar, that you are Catholic. I mean no offense, as sometimes I can come across that way when dealing with Catholic theology, but... I don't see a lot of Catholicism in your arguments.

Most Catholics are very strong on the life of Christ and have no trouble with His Holiness and give Him great respect and honor His authority.

Have you ever conversed and discussed these topics with your priest?
Yes, I am a catholic but I am against fundamentalism in general and there are catholics who interpret the scriptures in that sense as protestants do. However there are a great amount of Catholic thinkers over the years who understood the need of rationalism with the Bible and many people have mistakenly attributed God's commands to be some form of support for the beliefs of themselves which is --we are better than the other guy. So the teachings of "I am a believer Christ, therefore I go to heaven and you go to hell and that makes me better" is misinterpretation of the gospel and just something that makes the persons own ego feel legit IMO.

The fact is, every single church is corrupt. Whether it is catholic, lutheran, baptist, non-denom, orthodox.. they are all lead and runned by corrupt people who are more of the business of church than anything about Jesus. I can't say for certain if they are intentionally scamming but at the end these churches are not free of sin and so are their dedicated members who I know believe in Jesus. It's like these days, it is those who don't believe in Jesus that exhibit the actual teachings of Jesus in their attitudes while those who do believe in him don't. The Bible makes this clear in Matthew 7:21.
God is a good God and is more understanding towards others than any kind human being, and if a kind human being can see no evil in difference of beliefs than why can't God?
 
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JacksBratt

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Not granted eternal life, but getting a free pass with out any justice being given. Sad thing is, the majority of christians today exhibit the worst behaviors in comparison to non-believers that is rather horrible to think these people are better while the opposite is damned all because of their ignorance.

So, what would satisfy you as punishment for an armed bank robber who terrifies women and children in the act.. but, then gets caught, goes to jail for 15 years, becomes a Christian and is released after only 5 years and goes free... dies in a car crash, and faces the afterlife?

Then, what about a serial killer who kills 14 people over 16 years. Gets caught, goes to death row.. gets saved, then gets executed... and faces eternity?

The drunk driver, a Christian, Kills a family of two parents and three young children. Gets 5 years in jail and cannot driver of 10 years.... Then dies... a Christian...?

What is it that you are looking for here? What would satisfy your self appointed responsibility of being Judge?
 
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JacksBratt

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You claim the lies of satan, but i see this more of a lie from satan that God is this Kim Jong of the sky that you must submit to him or he will kill you. The Bible has given a great amount of verses as to how everyone will be judged accordingly to what they did.

That is the Lie.. right there.."you must submit, or he will kill you"...

What the reality is... we are all going to die... period... So.... it's more like
"Your going to die.. submit and He will save you".

God didn't put me on this road to hell. He didn't make me pull my sisters hair, take that chocolate bar, swear at that crazy driver, lust after that woman, eat too much food, yell at my mother...

I DID THAT. We all have done stuff like that as part of our human nature.

In all actuality, it is Satan who temps you.. just like he did to Jesus. Remember that.. Jesus, out in the hot sun. Parched, hungry.. 40 days without... then Satan temps Him?

James 1:13-14
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
 
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JacksBratt

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Read verses 1 Cor 3:15, Col 1:22-24, the verse in with Jesus talking to the Rich man and that Revelation verses you posted.. we can discuss that after.

1 Corinthians 3:15 is what happens when a Christian goes to heaven. All their works are passed through fire... what is good is what survives.. What is not, is consumed. We will be rewarded for what is left.

Note, it is not the works that get you there.. It is the works that you are rewarded for.

Your passage to heaven is paid by Christ. It is a free gift. We are only rewarded for our good works.... If we don't do good works.. we will just be standing there in heaven, without any more reward than eternal life. But, we will be there.

Col 1:22-24 is a snippet of what the whole passage states and would need more text to be taken in correct context. I don't have time right now to wade through it.
 
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RDKirk

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Again, this scripture is speaking of the non believers. The fact that they are at the white throne judgement confirms that they are already condemned, as I discussed already, and will not receive eternal life is support for the concept that there will be levels of torment in hell.

There is a commentary that does give some more detail that I can full well agree with.

That is the concept that, as has been talked about here before, there are countless thousands that never heard of Christ or lived before Christ and never would have had the opportunity to "Believe" and be saved.

These people cannot be counted as those taken up in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Yet, they never had the opportunity or knowledge of the gospel message.

These will be judged by a just, righteous, merciful and gracious creator, based on what they have done.

Basically, I look at this like a cop pulling you over on a road for speeding, when there was no speed limit.....The cop will look at the road conditions, look at the weather, and how heavy the traffic was.. and determine if you were traveling at a safe and responsible speed based on that.. Then, under the power of the court.. he will ticket you or not.

However, we who have knowledge and lived in a time where the gospel was known and had the choice to accept it or deny it... We are like a person who drives on the road with a speed limit posted and either follow it or ignore it.

WE, have no leg to stand on.

Yes.

We have to look at what "unbeliever" means in scripture. Exclusively, when New Testament speaks of an "unbeliever" they're talking about someone who has been given the truth and made a choice to disbelieve it. "Unbelief" is a conscious action.

Contrarily, the New Testament has at least two witnesses speaking of people who have not heard of either Law or Gospel--who have had no direct revelation of God--but who have discerned God in creation and acted in light of as much as they could discern, and it speaks positively of those people.

From what I can see in scripture, God's judgment takes into consideration how a person handled what he knows of God, and God is not an unbiased judge...God leans toward salvation. A lot of people talk as though is salvation is like an insurance contract, but God is biased toward salvation.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes, I am a catholic but I am against fundamentalism in general and there are catholics who interpret the scriptures in that sense as protestants do. However there are a great amount of Catholic thinkers over the years who understood the need of rationalism with the Bible and many people have mistakenly attributed God's commands to be some form of support for the beliefs of themselves which is --we are better than the other guy.
But.. wait... are you not saying "I'm better than the other guy"?.. I mean really.. You don't want them to go to heaven because they are so bad.. yet think that you yourself to be worthy.

Who is saying "I'm better than you"?

Better still.. Who decides? IT's God who decides and you don't like it. You are saying "I know more than you God... they should burn".


So the teachings of "I am a believer Christ, therefore I go to heaven and you go to hell and that makes me better" is misinterpretation of the gospel and just something that makes the persons own ego feel legit IMO.

Who is teaching that?

Christians do not say "I'm a believer in Christ so I'm going to heaven, so I'm better than you"...

Christians say.... We all can go to heaven if we believe" Nobody will be turned away. DO you see the difference?

It is YOU who are saying "HEY GOD.. they souldn't go to heaven.... they are way too bad..... I'm better than they are".

It's even more arrogant if the person doesn't want to worship Christ or believe in Christ and Is basically shouting...

"HEY GOD.. I will not bow down to you or accept that I sinned against you.. but... I'm way better than that guy.. he's real bad"

The best laugh is this:

"HEY YOU.. that doesn't exist.. I'm better than that guy.. he is real bad.. I am real good.. I should get to go to this place that I don't believe in"

How retarded.
 
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JacksBratt

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The fact is, every single church is corrupt. Whether it is catholic, lutheran, baptist, non-denom, orthodox.. they are all lead and runned by corrupt people who are more of the business of church than anything about Jesus.

YEP... I agree 100%. There are crooks, gossips, thiefs, alcoholics, liars, cheats, narcissists, adulterers, in every church.

That is because "church" and "Denominations" are MAN MADE.

What I aim for is a "relationship with my savior" I go to a church and support it because their proclamation is what I stand for...

If I was to expect that all the people who work for the church are perfect I would not go to a church at all.
 
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JacksBratt

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It's like these days, it is those who don't believe in Jesus that exhibit the actual teachings of Jesus in their attitudes while those who do believe in him don't.

That could very well be. However, in my city.. it is not the case... I know lots of people that go to my church and they are fine upstanding people who any non believer would realize them to be a child of God by just talking to them for a few minutes or seeing them out in the world.

Others.. yep... you wonder if they even heard the message on Sunday.

What's you point? That believers are not perfect people? Well, tell me something that is news.



The Bible makes this clear in Matthew 7:21.
God is a good God and is more understanding towards others than any kind human being,
Yes there are those out there that do things in Gods name and will try to take credit for it. Lots of them.

I 100% agree with this "God is more understanding towards others than any kind human being."

This is why He and Him alone, will say that someone that you or I deem to be too evil to enter heaven... will walk right up the steps and into Gods arms.


and if a kind human being can see no evil in difference of beliefs than why can't God?
Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean difference between beliefs inside of Christianity? or Different beliefs like Buddha and Islam?
 
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Cis.jd

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But.. wait... are you not saying "I'm better than the other guy"?.. I mean really.. You don't want them to go to heaven because they are so bad.. yet think that you yourself to be worthy.

Who is saying "I'm better than you"?

Better still.. Who decides? IT's God who decides and you don't like it. You are saying "I know more than you God... they should burn".

I never said they were better than you. Why are you now taking my posts out of context?

I understand it is God who decides, but there is no way it makes sense for a good and just God to just send people to hell all because of ignorance and send horrible people straight to heaven with out any justification for the wrongs they've done to others all because of them believing in him.

I think deep down you understand how evil that makes God sound but being so wrapped up in the bliss of what you believe in. However, it doesn't hurt your faith it should actually strengthen it more. The fact is your arguments don't make sense and it is all because it's not true. I don't understand why you want this view of God being a --self-absorbed Kim Jong of the skies who created life and gave it an ultimatum to worship him or perish in the most unimaginable torment forever-- to be true over a God who forgives and answers the injustice done by others.

Again, with that Revelation verse. The dead stood before the thrown, and where all being judged accordingly to their works.
 
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JacksBratt

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I never said they were better than you. Why are you now taking my posts out of context?

Did you not say:

"many people have mistakenly attributed God's commands to be some form of support for the beliefs of themselves which is --we are better than the other guy."

If I used it in the wrong context... I apologize. I took it as I did and commented on it in that context.


I understand it is God who decides, but there is no way it makes sense for a good and just God to just send people to hell all because of ignorance

I thought that we already supported that those who never knew Christ.. or were ignorant of the gospel, would be judged by their works, by God, at the white throne?

Nobody will go to hell, if their works, in ignorance of Christ, were deemed to be acceptable in the eyes of God.




and send horrible people straight to heaven with out any justification for the wrongs they've done to others all because of them believing in him.

But there was justification... Christ died for sins when He had no sin. All sin is justified.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I thought that Christ stated that His death was to cover "ALL" sins? Do you want to change the gospel and suggest that some sins are too great for Christ to forgive?



I think deep down you understand how evil that makes God sound but being so wrapped up in the bliss of what you believe in.

You think wrong.

However, it doesn't hurt your faith it should actually strengthen it more. The fact is your arguments don't make sense and it is all because it's not true.
The truth of Christ will not make sense to the blind. Only those who believe will have their eyes opened.

2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17. Matthew 13:15-16 For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them. “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

I don't understand why you want this view of God being a --self-absorbed Kim Jong of the skies who created life and gave it an ultimatum to worship him or perish in the most unimaginable torment forever-- to be true over a God who forgives and answers the injustice done by others.

It has nothing to do with what "I want". It is the truth written in the canon.

What I am saying is exactly that

"God forgives and answers the injustice done by others."
I'm just saying that God forgives anyone. You are saying that some should not deserve to be forgiven.


I'm saying that injustice can be answered by the work on the cross.. you are saying that the work on the cross is not good enough for some horrendous sins.

Again, with that Revelation verse. The dead stood before the thrown, and where all being judged accordingly to their works.

AND.. AGAIN. these are the ones that never had the opportunity to accept Christ.. due to dying before the time of Christ.. or... never heard of Him due to living on an Island or something..... where they never had the knowledge of the Gospel and therefore did not have the opportunity to reject it.

Anyone who has heard the story of Christ.. will either accept it.. or ... reject it.

If you reject it..in this life... you will not be judged by any "works". You will have sealed your fate in dying as a human who rejected Christ.[/QUOTE]
 
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Cis.jd

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Did you not say:

"many people have mistakenly attributed God's commands to be some form of support for the beliefs of themselves which is --we are better than the other guy."
If I used it in the wrong context... I apologize. I took it as I did and commented on it in that context.
That's fine but why for some reason did you think that was speaking about you?

I thought that we already supported that those who never knew Christ.. or were ignorant of the gospel, would be judged by their works, by God, at the white throne? Nobody will go to hell, if their works, in ignorance of Christ, were deemed to be acceptable in the eyes of God.
Where in revelation do you see any description of ignorance of christ, believers, or non believers? It says the dead both great and small coming from different places.

But there was justification... Christ died for sins when He had no sin. All sin is justified. Romans 5:1
I thought that Christ stated that His death was to cover "ALL" sins? Do you want to change the gospel and suggest that some sins are too great for Christ to forgive?

You are lost at what the argument has been about. My argument is that not all sins are swept under the rug, and not all sins are evil enough for hell. Jesus' death on the cross saved us from the fate of sin but he didn't throw away the importance of justice and to have the sins of these people just auto-cleaned is injustice to their victims. Regardless of him being a savior he is also the righteous judge. So the sins of the villagers in Salem, the christian marchers, getting auto-cleaned is injustice.

I'm just saying that God forgives anyone. You are saying that some should not deserve to be forgiven.
No, that was never my argument. That was yours: "you can't go to heaven just cuz you're nice..." Now your whole understanding of the argument is gone.

AND.. AGAIN. these are the ones that never had the opportunity to accept Christ.. due to dying before the time of Christ.. or... never heard of Him due to living on an Island or something..... where they never had the knowledge of the Gospel and therefore did not have the opportunity to reject it.
Where in Revelation does it say that about these people? The only thing I see in Rev 20:12 about the dead is a physical description (great and small).

The truth of Christ will not make sense to the blind. Only those who believe will have their eyes opened.
2 Corinthians 3:16 17. Matthew 13:15-16
You are using the "well, you just don't know the truth of Christ" card to excuse your arguments.

Anyone who has heard the story of Christ.. will either accept it.. or ... reject it. If you reject it..in this life... you will not be judged by any "works". You will have sealed your fate in dying as a human who rejected Christ.
But remember Matt 12:32 saying that the only unforgivable sin is the sin against the HS -- and how it's not even forgiven in the next life.
 
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JacksBratt

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That's fine but why for some reason did you think that was speaking about you?


Where in revelation do you see any description of ignorance of christ, believers, or non believers? It says the dead both great and small coming from different places.



You are lost at what the argument has been about. My argument is that not all sins are swept under the rug, and not all sins are evil enough for hell. Jesus' death on the cross saved us from the fate of sin but he didn't throw away the importance of justice and to have the sins of these people just auto-cleaned is injustice to their victims. Regardless of him being a savior he is also the righteous judge. So the sins of the villagers in Salem, the christian marchers, getting auto-cleaned is injustice.


No, that was never my argument. That was yours: "you can't go to heaven just cuz you're nice..." Now your whole understanding of the argument is gone.


Where in Revelation does it say that about these people? The only thing I see in Rev 20:12 about the dead is a physical description (great and small).


You are using the "well, you just don't know the truth of Christ" card to excuse your arguments.


But remember Matt 12:32 saying that the only unforgivable sin is the sin against the HS -- and how it's not even forgiven in the next life.
I'm really sorry, but, you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this.

We are, now, just going round and round....


I think that you have a big heart. Maybe, like I do, you have some real good friends and family that don't believe in Christ. We cannot see or understand how a loving God could ever keep them from heaven.

However, the scripture is pretty clear on this and I am not going to contradict the word of God.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
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Cis.jd

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However, the scripture is pretty clear on this and I am not going to contradict the word of God.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Yes we won't.. but i'm just going to point out that you have been cherry picking verses. The Bible has verses in where it talks about belief only and then it has verses in where works also matter. You can't just ignore those. If you are going to still believe the God is a good and loving God, how can you make sense to someone else when you reveal that he created us with an ultimatum which is to live and worship or die? You've been shown examples of wrongs made by christians -wrongs that resulted in other people dying-- if God is a just God, then where is the justice for those people who died, why do they just go to hell and the christians who ended their life get an instant pass to heaven all because of just believing in him? That is nothing different than a tyrant. Just replace "God" with Allah or somebody and you wouldn't be using any form of "well, our minds are just limited" because that is universally understood as wrong.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes we won't.. but i'm just going to point out that you have been cherry picking verses. The Bible has verses in where it talks about belief only and then it has verses in where works also matter. You can't just ignore those. If you are going to still believe the God is a good and loving God, how can you make sense to someone else when you reveal that he created us with an ultimatum which is to live and worship or die? You've been shown examples of wrongs made by christians -wrongs that resulted in other people dying-- if God is a just God, then where is the justice for those people who died, why do they just go to hell and the christians who ended their life get an instant pass to heaven all because of just believing in him? That is nothing different than a tyrant. Just replace "God" with Allah or somebody and you wouldn't be using any form of "well, our minds are just limited" because that is universally understood as wrong.
Yes, I have picked a few verses that support my view. However, they are taken, by me, in context of the scripture which they are contained in.

Your supported scripture is not in context and is spun to fit a view that is contrary to every Christian church. Including Catholicism.

How ridiculous for these people, who are considered to be "good" by you, and thus be worthy of entry into heaven, or a "second chance" that you keep talking about...

How ridiculous it is for them to refuse to just accept that they are sinners and ask Christ for forgiveness.... It's not like He is asking them to do some fantastic feat.

Yet, this is what those who are damned are actually guilty of. Not the wrongs against others and the wrongs against God.. for we have all done those on various levels.

No, the damned are only guilty of one thing.. Pride... They think that their being "good" should mean something.... Well, it doesn't.

It's totally absurd for an intelligent, good, and well meaning person, to be as stubborn as to deny their creator the simple act that costs nothing but humbleness and admitting something that is undeniably true.

Sad.

I will read your next response. However, I will not respond. The truth of the gospel has been laid down in this thread. Others have shown their agreement with me.. others may disagree..

Being that we are way off topic and I have said all that I can... I will just say God Bless you Cis.jd
 
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Residential Bob

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No demons exist in the world.

When people accused Jesus of casting out demons in Beelzebul’s name, he retorted at how foolish Satan would have been to divide his own house. Why would demons cast out demons? Instead, Jesus cast out demons to demonstrate that the Kingdom of God had come. Jesus came in his kingdom to overpower and defeat sin (Mt 12:22-29; Lk 11:14-23).

Who casts out demons now? The Scriptures ascribe demonic possession to satanic agency, and one of the credentials of the Lord’s divine commission was that he, by the finger of God, cast out devils. The casting out of unclean spirits continued into the age of the apostles. But now, in the post-apostolic ages, who casts them out? Demonic possession after the first century is relegated to popular superstition or mental illness, explanations incompatible with representations in the New Testament. Our Lord has conquered evil.

Satan is now cast out of the world (Jn 12:31). God has transferred us from that darkness and into his kingdom (Col 1:13).
 
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Cis.jd

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Yes, I have picked a few verses that support my view. However, they are taken, by me, in context of the scripture which they are contained in.

Your supported scripture is not in context and is spun to fit a view that is contrary to every Christian church. Including Catholicism.

There was no scripture that you used in context. You inserted your own descriptions of the dead in the Rev verse that wasn't there. You also ignored the Unforgivable sins verse, in where the only unforgivable sin is sins against the HS.

How ridiculous for these people, who are considered to be "good" by you, and thus be worthy of entry into heaven, or a "second chance" that you keep talking about...

How ridiculous it is for them to refuse to just accept that they are sinners and ask Christ for forgiveness.... It's not like He is asking them to do some fantastic feat.

This is hypocritical, because you've exempted people who are mentally handicapped from being thrown to hell, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that does it. The funny thing about some christians as yourself is that you end up resorting to the "well, you don't understand because you don't know Jesus as much as I do" line just to defend your bad arguments that are being scripturally and logically debunked.

I will not respond to you anymore as well but these views are what has drove people away from God. You give the impression that Christians are just like the North Koreans who are co-signing with a tyrant dictator who has this huge death penalty for those who don't worship him.
 
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