A Challenge to Christian Zionists

keras said:

James, you are a Christian, right?
I am a Christian, everyone here are Christians, we have all chosen to follow and obey Jesus.

Who is it that inherit God's Promises? Those people who Jesus said that the Kingdom is now taken from them, or those who bear the fruit of the Gospel? Matthew 21:43
Note well that the OT promises are made to Israel, a word that literally means: One who overcomes.
Who are those who overcome Satan? Christians, of course and we are plainly told they come from every tribe [of Israel] every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10 and the people mentioned in each of the Seven Church's, as Overcomers, or the Victorious ones.

WE inherit God's Promises and the greatest one was that He would send His Son for the Salvation of the whole world. John 3:16
WE are the people of God, the Israel of God, as Galatians 6:14-16 states. Any other claimant to Israel, is false and will pay dearly for their arrogance.

Click to expand...

Biblewriter said:

If God could, after making such an absolut promise, tell them that He was not actually talking about them, but a different group that would come in the future, He could just as righteously tell us that He did not mean us when He made the promises upon which we rely. So your doctrine destroies the very founding of the Christian faith.

But instead of telling them that, in the New Testament He repeated His promise, giving as His reason that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

You are ignoring the fact that Paul described two different groups of Israelites throughout Romans chapter 11, starting in Romans 11:1-5.

The faithful "remnant" was faithful to God, and the other group rejected God's plan, and was broken off of the Olive Tree.
Those broken off can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.

Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church in the chapter.
Paul provides no path to salvation in the passage outside of the Church.

There are also two different groups of "they" in the verse below.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ: His Church.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.

Under no conditions or circumstances can unbelievers, enemies of the gospel, ever be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.

Click to expand...

Biblewriter said:

Except, in this passage, God used these terms explicitly about those Jews who had not yet believed.

Click to expand...

Biblewriter said:

If God could, after making such an absolut promise, tell them that He was not actually talking about them, but a different group that would come in the future, He could just as righteously tell us that He did not mean us when He made the promises upon which we rely. So your doctrine destroies the very founding of the Christian faith.

But instead of telling them that, in the New Testament He repeated His promise, giving as His reason that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

When seeking the meaning of a Scriptural word or expression, we can search the Scriptures as did the Bereans (Acts 17:11) to compare meanings and applicabilities elsewhere.

There is not a single instance of numerous instances elsewhere in Scripture where “gifts” and “calling” can be remotely construed to be applicable to “enemies of the gospel” as you claim.

They are exclusively applicable to God's Holy Chosen People, His Church.

The meanings and applicabilities of “gifts” and “calling” are convincingly determinable by following the Berean example.

Click to expand...

keras said:

Yes, Israel are the recipients of the Promises; to the descendants of Abraham by faith. His descendants are uncountable multitudes, in fact there would be no one alive today without some of his genes. Genesis 22:17 Note in that verse, they will posses the cities of their enemies. When did the Jews do That?

I suggest you read Romans 4:13-16 and Romans 9:6-8 and if you simply can't change your beliefs, then at least cease making foolish statements like the above.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

Thank God that any unbiased member of this forum can read the text for themselves.

If someone can prove Romans 11 does not contain two different types of Israelites, one faithful, and one not, I will gladly admit my error.

.

Click to expand...

keras said:

Sadly, James you have shown that you don't believe what God explicitly said.

Romans 11:25-26…when all the Gentile believers are come in..…the Deliverer will come and so all Israel shall be saved.

This proves the inclusion of the Gentile believers into the Israel of God.

Remember Romans 9:6-8…not all of ethnic Israel are truly the Israel of God…it is the children born from the Promise, [Jesus: the Promise - His Christian believers, the children born again in Him.] who are reckoned as Abrahams descendants.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, my friends, like Isaac; are children of God’s Promise.


It follows that the ‘all of Israel’ must include those Christian believers who are grafted in, Romans 11:17, who are the true circumcision, the ‘real Jews’; Romans 2:29 People from every race; nation and language, including Jews, all bought by the blood of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

We know that God did choose ethnic Israel to be His people and Jesus came to continue God’s Promises to the Patriarchs, Romans 15:8 He came to save the lost sheep of Israel.

But the Israelite Jewish House of Judah rejected and killed Him, as the parable of the vineyard relates. Matthew 21:33-43 Now it is the Gentiles, the House of Israel, the other ten tribes, who `glorify God for His mercy, Romans 15:9-13

The Jewish Israelites lost their vantage ground because of this rejection and todays Jewish people, in the main, continue in this sin and they stand level with the rest of fallen humanity. The Cross has broken down the wall of separation between Israel and all other peoples, it has levelled all distinctions. Ephesians 2:14-18


How can it be when there is now; no special people, that in the last days, God could forgive the Jews their centuries of disbelief and now in the State of Israel, their prideful atheism, false religions and LGBT sins?

Simply put: If God was to fulfil the promises He made to ancient Israel, to the current Jewish State of Israel, it would be entirely inconsistent with the truths of the New Testament and a denial of Jesus’ Words in John 3:16.

Click to expand...

Biblewriter said:

This is demonstrably incorrect.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

In this passage, the fact that these people had not believed the gospel is specifically mentioned both before and after the words "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." In actual fact, these words were God's explanation of why they were still beloved, even though they had not believed.

So there is zero way to even pretend that the portion of the nation of Israel that had not believed the gospel of Jesus Christ is who this was said about.

Click to expand...

Biblewriter said:

What you are saying is not what the Bible says. It is your interpretation of the meaning of what it says.

Click to expand...

keras said:

Romans 9:6-8…not all of ethnic Israel are truly the Israel of God…it is the children born from the Promise, who are reckoned as Abrahams descendants.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

You err.

"What you are saying is not what the Bible says. It is your interpretation of the meaning of what it says."


The qualifying objects of a descriptive declaration are those objects in closest proximity to that declaration. Here, the descriptive declaration is “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable”. The preceding object in closest proximity is the “election”. The following object in closest proximity is “you”.

For both objects, the reference is to existing believers.

Which is fully consistent with the numerous other scriptural references which I cited previously.

In addition to which, the notion that “enemies of the gospel” could be the recipients of God's gifts and calling while still in sin, is risible on its face.

Only the beloved elect of the true Church qualify.

The Bereans, upon searching the Scriptures, would have agreed.

Click to expand...

keras said:

So how do you 'interpret' this?

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

.

Click to expand...