Purgatory - thoughts?

BNR32FAN

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You didn't really read it because the title has Colossians 1:24 as the topic, so obviously this is about your views on 1:22-23 being some refutation on purgatory.

Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church”. (find another translation too if you want)

I would like to see how you fit this verse in the context you are proposing of Col 1:22-23, before giving you my actual response to your interpretation of Col 1:22.


So you have no sin, and you are confident that from today till the day you die you are sinless, refer to Colossians 1:24 to complete the entire message of that context.

As for your question, no i don't think the Colossians lived without any sin.

What suffering is Paul enduring for Jesus’ sake? Notice this suffering is not for Paul’s sake. Do you believe this is referring to temporal punishment? How would that be for Jesus’ sake? Paul is rejoicing that the world hates him just as Jesus said it would because he is spreading the gospel for Jesus’ sake. Notice verse 25

“Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:25‬

Paul is rejoicing in his suffering because he is carrying out the will of God. This is not temporal punishment because according to the Roman Church that would be for Paul’s sake not Jesus’ sake.

I never said I am sinless. I said I am unblemished. My sins are paid for in full by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice which have rendered me as a sinner holy, blameless and without blemish it fault of any kind as I stand before God now able to enter the most holy place. Hence the veil was torn. Did you not get the point I was making about the Colossians? Do you think they were sinless when Paul wrote the epistle to the Colossians? Surely Paul was not writing to people who had already gone thru purgatory.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You didn't really read it because the title has Colossians 1:24 as the topic, so obviously this is about your views on 1:22-23 being some refutation on purgatory.

Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church”. (find another translation too if you want)

I would like to see how you fit this verse in the context you are proposing of Col 1:22-23, before giving you my actual response to your interpretation of Col 1:22.


So you have no sin, and you are confident that from today till the day you die you are sinless, refer to Colossians 1:24 to complete the entire message of that context.

As for your question, no i don't think the Colossians lived without any sin.

I did in fact read it and as I said it does not address verse 22 at all.

Perhaps you can explain 1 Corinthians 3:15 and prove me wrong or perhaps Matthew 12:32. Notice I go straight to the scriptures and give commentary verse by verse to prove my point. I invite you to do the same. Do you accept?
 
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Cis.jd

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I did in fact read it and as I said it does not address verse 22 at all.
It actually does by showing you that you are not sticking to it's actual context. Your argument is that v22-23 shows how unscriptural or contradictory to scripture the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is.. but that is because you leave out v24 which completes the actual message.

With v24 included along with 22-23, it tells you that while Christs sacrifice was perfect and infinite in value, it doesn't do away with all worries about possible future punishment due to someone's sins. If so, then Paul would never say that his sufferings fill up for members of the Church that which is wanting in the sacrifice of Christ; nor would Jesus speak of the punishments for sins, which He does a lot in the Bible.

Perhaps you can explain 1 Corinthians 3:15 and prove me wrong or perhaps Matthew 12:32. Notice I go straight to the scriptures and give commentary verse by verse to prove my point. I invite you to do the same. Do you accept?
1 Corinthians 3:15 - I hope you are not going pop open stuff from Carm.org or james white to go "oh that doesn't mean it's purgatory".

Matt 12:32 was explained. The only unforgivable sin is the HS, it can't be forgiven in the 1st life or the 2nd life (after life).
 
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Cis.jd

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I never said I am sinless. I said I am unblemished. My sins are paid for in full by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice which have rendered me as a sinner holy, blameless and without blemish it fault of any kind as I stand before God now able to enter the most holy place. Hence the veil was torn. Did you not get the point I was making about the Colossians? Do you think they were sinless when Paul wrote the epistle to the Colossians? Surely Paul was not writing to people who had already gone thru purgatory.

So if you are unblemished then how can you still be with sin? The fact is you still have, there are sins you are probably not aware of. But ok, lets say the sins you have until the time you die are weak, nothing type of sins.. what about the christians I talked about who marched and created traffic that caused the lives of 2 people. What about that? I can understand you believe in Jesus Christ's sacrifice (so do I) but what about the verses in the Bible that defines God as a righteous God? So how do you rationalize that divine just attribute on this circumstance?

Point is, we all know what Jesus did and no one denies this but there are sins that do demand justice and have to be paid. If you don't want to listen to a catholic on it, then go dig CS Lewis on it.
 
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ml5363

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So you’re free to just sin all you want, and you get a free pass? Wow I had no idea.
Why does everyone jumped to that...very FEW folks in the osas crowd think that...and it is wrong by the way..thinking you have a license to sin after being saved..

From a osas
 
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ml5363

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After such receiving such a wonderful gift of salvation, why would anyone want to sin? Why would a Christian consider a free pass to sin as something attractive or desirable? Is it your contention that Christians that try to refrain from sinning only do so in order to escape God's wrath?


So you have never told a white lie, ate too much food at any point, thought a bad thought, lusted, had a bad word slip after being saved, lost your temper? Those are all sin
 
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BNR32FAN

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It actually does by showing you that you are not sticking to it's actual context. Your argument is that v22-23 shows how unscriptural or contradictory to scripture the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is.. but that is because you leave out v24 which completes the actual message.

With v24 included along with 22-23, it tells you that while Christs sacrifice was perfect and infinite in value, it doesn't do away with all worries about possible future punishment due to someone's sins. If so, then Paul would never say that his sufferings fill up for members of the Church that which is wanting in the sacrifice of Christ; nor would Jesus speak of the punishments for sins, which He does a lot in the Bible.


1 Corinthians 3:15 - I hope you are not going pop open stuff from Carm.org or james white to go "oh that doesn't mean it's purgatory".

Matt 12:32 was explained. The only unforgivable sin is the HS, it can't be forgiven in the 1st life or the 2nd life (after life).

I don’t know if you’ve noticed or not but I don’t post links to interpret the scriptures. I assure you you will never see me quoting James White. That guy is so wrong on so many levels it’s amazing that he has apparently studied the Bible as long as he has.

Ok you do think Paul’s suffering is temporal punishment. Jesus explains exactly why the apostles will suffer for His name sake. It has nothing to do with temporal punishment. The apostles suffered at the hands of men. What your implying is that God has made these men cause the suffering of the apostles which would be interfering with free will. Not to mention that temporal punishment is not for Christ’s benefit. So let’s examine the scriptures where Jesus explains why the apostles will suffer for his name sake.

“"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ' THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:18-25

“"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all because of My name.
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:12-17‬

“But the Lord said to him (Ananias) "Go, for he (Paul) is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:15-16‬

“Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:24-25‬

“"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:16-22‬

You are in error my friend Paul’s suffering for Christ’s name sake has nothing to do with temporal punishment. The trials we face that God puts us thru are to strengthen our faith and to teach us lessons so that we learn from Him. Nothing to do with forgiveness or purification of sin. Perhaps you can quote a scripture that supports suffering for the remission of sin.

As far as 1 Corinthians 3:15 I’ve already done a verse by verse extensive explanation about the meaning of this. I invite you to correct me if you feel that I am in error and please be specific on exactly which verses you believe I have misinterpreted.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So if you are unblemished then how can you still be with sin? The fact is you still have, there are sins you are probably not aware of. But ok, lets say the sins you have until the time you die are weak, nothing type of sins.. what about the christians I talked about who marched and created traffic that caused the lives of 2 people. What about that? I can understand you believe in Jesus Christ's sacrifice (so do I) but what about the verses in the Bible that defines God as a righteous God? So how do you rationalize that divine just attribute on this circumstance?

Point is, we all know what Jesus did and no one denies this but there are sins that do demand justice and have to be paid. If you don't want to listen to a catholic on it, then go dig CS Lewis on it.

Please answer this question. This is the third time I’ve asked. Did the Colossians live free from sin when Paul wrote his epistle to them?
 
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Cis.jd

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Please answer this question. This is the third time I’ve asked. Did the Colossians live free from sin when Paul wrote his epistle to them?


“"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ' THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:18-25

“"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all because of My name.
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:12-17‬

“But the Lord said to him (Ananias) "Go, for he (Paul) is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:15-16‬

“Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:24-25‬

“"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:16-22‬
I've already answered that. The answer is no. I don't think that they lived sinless lives after.



Ok you do think Paul’s suffering is temporal punishment. Jesus explains exactly why the apostles will suffer for His name sake. It has nothing to do with temporal punishment. The apostles suffered at the hands of men. What your implying is that God has made these men cause the suffering of the apostles which would be interfering with free will. Not to mention that temporal punishment is not for Christ’s benefit. So let’s examine the scriptures where Jesus explains why the apostles will suffer for his name sake.

What you are talking about is martydom, not temporal punishment -- justification/removing of sin.

You are in error my friend Paul’s suffering for Christ’s name sake has nothing to do with temporal punishment. The trials we face that God puts us thru are to strengthen our faith and to teach us lessons so that we learn from Him. Nothing to do with forgiveness or purification of sin. Perhaps you can quote a scripture that supports suffering for the remission of sin.

As far as 1 Corinthians 3:15 I’ve already done a verse by verse extensive explanation about the meaning of this. I invite you to correct me if you feel that I am in error and please be specific on exactly which verses you believe I have misinterpreted.

Well you are confusing temporal punishment for Martydom. This has nothing to do with suffering for christ but simply still sinning in your life regardless of Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus death on the cross saved us from the penalty of sin but that doesn't mean sin is now completely removed from human nature. In this life we are not perfect, and there are sins that we are probably not aware of and it would be unfair and unjust for God to just either have that instantly wiped clean -- especially if that sin was against someone-- or send that person to hell.

You quote 1 Cor 3:15 and your verse explanation, but this is a verse popular with catholics in discussing purgatory. In that verse you have the word suffer loss; in greek this is zemiothesetai which is a word used to mean punishment. In short, God uses fire and discipline to reform and purge His children.. to get more understanding of this, start with 1 Cor 3:11-15. Afterwards go to 2 Cor 5:10, and then ask yourself where is this judgement seat? It can't be in heaven sincs nothing unclean can enter there and it can't be hell because that is the death sentence.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I've already answered that. The answer is no. I don't think that they lived sinless lives after.





What you are talking about is martydom, not temporal punishment -- justification/removing of sin.

You are in error my friend Paul’s suffering for Christ’s name sake has nothing to do with temporal punishment. The trials we face that God puts us thru are to strengthen our faith and to teach us lessons so that we learn from Him. Nothing to do with forgiveness or purification of sin. Perhaps you can quote a scripture that supports suffering for the remission of sin.



Well you are confusing temporal punishment for Martydom. This has nothing to do with suffering for christ but simply still sinning in your life regardless of Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus death on the cross saved us from the penalty of sin but that doesn't mean sin is now completely removed from human nature. In this life we are not perfect, and there are sins that we are probably not aware of and it would be unfair and unjust for God to just either have that instantly wiped clean -- especially if that sin was against someone-- or send that person to hell.

You quote 1 Cor 3:15 and your verse explanation, but this is a verse popular with catholics in discussing purgatory. In that verse you have the word suffer loss; in greek this is zemiothesetai which is a word used to mean punishment. In short, God uses fire and discipline to reform and purge His children.. to get more understanding of this, start with 1 Cor 3:11-15. Afterwards go to 2 Cor 5:10, and then ask yourself where is this judgement seat? It can't be in heaven sincs nothing unclean can enter there and it can't be hell because that is the death sentence.

Where do the scriptures say justification is thru suffering?

You said “it would be unfair and unjust for God to just either have that instantly wiped clean -- especially if that sin was against someone“ is this scripture or your opinion? How is it just or fair that Jesus suffered and died for our sins even tho He never sinned? Our sins are wiped clean by Jesus’ sacrifice. He paid the price. If we had to pay for our own sins no one would be in heaven.

I know 1 Corinthians 3:15 is a popular verse that Roman Catholics believe supports purgatory but it doesn’t. In order to understand verse 15 you don’t start at verse 11 you start at verse 1. That’s where you’ll find the context of the topic Paul is using the the illustration in verses 11-15 to support. Verses 11-15 are an illustration to support what Paul is talking about in verses 1-10. The term “suffer loss” is translated from the Greek word zēmióō G2210 meaning
1) to affect with damage, do damage to

2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

It’s used in the scriptures 6 times.

Matthew 16:26, Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25, 1 Corinthians 3:15, 2 Corinthians 7:9, and Philippians 3:8.

I don’t see any of them in reference to punishment. Now I’m not saying the word can’t be used in reference to punishment. But 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not referring to punishment it is referring to a loss of rewards. If you didn’t place within top 3 in a race you don’t get a trophy. Not getting a trophy isn’t a punishment you just don’t receive a reward. Remember the builders are people who are building on the foundation of Christ and it is only this type of work that is being tested. Notice verse 12 & 13

“Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:12-13‬ ‭

In 1 Corinthians 3:15 zēmióō is used in contrast to receiving rewards according to our deeds. If our works do not survive the test of fire we will not receive a reward hence suffer loss of said reward. We will not be punished for not succeeding in our efforts in building on the foundation of Christ and there is no reference anywhere in the entire chapter of sin, forgiveness, atonement, or purification. Verse 13 says the fire will prove the works. Nowhere in the entire chapter is there any mention of the builder being purified, punished, tested or proved by fire. The builder doesn’t have anything to do with the fire.

“each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬

The builder will be saved yet so as thru fire. I believe this is a way of saying he will barely make it into heaven. But my official position is I don’t know what it means. I think too often people are too afraid to admit they don’t know it all. I’m not implying this to you my friend just speaking in general.
 
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Cis.jd

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Where do the scriptures say justification is thru suffering?
Does it need to say it to understand the whole context of paying/removing sin? It's all justified.. and in some views it is concept to involve suffering. You see, this when you protestants try to defend your arguments of straw "show me scripture". You guys fling it around everytime your arguments and logical reasoning isn't working. You need to take the muslim route in demanding a specific verse when you can't accept a set of verses spelling it out.

You said “it would be unfair and unjust for God to just either have that instantly wiped clean -- especially if that sin was against someone“ is this scripture or your opinion? How is it just or fair that Jesus suffered and died for our sins even tho He never sinned? Our sins are wiped clean by Jesus’ sacrifice. He paid the price. If we had to pay for our own sins no one would be in heaven.

Why does what is fair and unfair need to be scripture? It's just basic rationalism and common sense that to just let sins go unpunished, especially sins that have harmed someone, is unjust. Even our court system shows it. If someone killed your family, wouldn't you be upset if the judge just lets this person pass out of forgiveness? No.

Also, you ignored once again v24 and are inserting redundant arguments to take away the fact it showed you how you took v22-23 out of context. I don't get why you are using Jesus' suffering on the cross as counter logic, because that is a really bad argument.

Lets go back to that Christian march; do you think those 2 lives where the only ones effected by their ignorance? What if those 2 people had families they were supporting? What if one of their kids was already in high depression and then this happens, what if their families now lost someone who provides the food on their table? Not only did these Christians kill this person but has now given great stress and life long pain to the people around him.. so here you are being asked, if the Bible says the God is a just God, then how can that be true if this sin the christians made are just washed clean at the end of their lives? Your reply to this was an attempt of "counter-logic" with, "Well Jesus was sinless and sacrificed himself.. that wasn't fair either.."... what argument is that?

I know 1 Corinthians 3:15 is a popular verse that Roman Catholics believe supports purgatory but it doesn’t. In order to understand verse 15 you don’t start at verse 11 you start at verse 1. That’s where you’ll find the context of the topic Paul is using the the illustration in verses 11-15 to support. Verses 11-15 are an illustration to support what Paul is talking about in verses 1-10. The term “suffer loss” is translated from the Greek word zēmióō G2210 meaning
1) to affect with damage, do damage to

zemiothesetai is used and it is translated to "Suffer Loss" in 3:15 not zēmióō. In some uses it can be used in the same sense as punishment but the context is different. That is why it is translated as "Suffer Loss" and not "punishment". The fact that your wording is also incorrect throws away the next couple of blocks you've made trying to tell me what zēmióō is used for in 1 Cor 3:15.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Does it need to say it to understand the whole context of paying/removing sin? It's all justified.. and in some views it is concept to involve suffering. You see, this when you protestants try to defend your arguments of straw "show me scripture". You guys fling it around everytime your arguments and logical reasoning isn't working. You need to take the muslim route in demanding a specific verse when you can't accept a set of verses spelling it out.



Why does what is fair and unfair need to be scripture? It's just basic rationalism and common sense that to just let sins go unpunished, especially sins that have harmed someone, is unjust. Even our court system shows it. If someone killed your family, wouldn't you be upset if the judge just lets this person pass out of forgiveness? No.

Also, you ignored once again v24 and are inserting redundant arguments to take away the fact it showed you how you took v22-23 out of context. I don't get why you are using Jesus' suffering on the cross as counter logic, because that is a really bad argument.

Lets go back to that Christian march; do you think those 2 lives where the only ones effected by their ignorance? What if those 2 people had families they were supporting? What if one of their kids was already in high depression and then this happens, what if their families now lost someone who provides the food on their table? Not only did these Christians kill this person but has now given great stress and life long pain to the people around him.. so here you are being asked, if the Bible says the God is a just God, then how can that be true if this sin the christians made are just washed clean at the end of their lives? Your reply to this was an attempt of "counter-logic" with, "Well Jesus was sinless and sacrificed himself.. that wasn't fair either.."... what argument is that?



zemiothesetai is used and it is translated to "Suffer Loss" in 3:15 not zēmióō. In some uses it can be used in the same sense as punishment but the context is different. That is why it is translated as "Suffer Loss" and not "punishment". The fact that your wording is also incorrect throws away the next couple of blocks you've made trying to tell me what zēmióō is used for in 1 Cor 3:15.

As I expected when you come to your own conclusions outside of what the apostles actually taught you are incapable of providing scriptures to support them. Like I said purgatory is formulated based on nothing but assumptions and errors. When they are shown to you and you can no longer defend your beliefs by the scriptures you retaliate with nonsense about sola scriptura.

You misunderstood why I asked if Jesus’ sacrifice was just and fair. Your under the assumption that grace is just and fair and it isn’t. If grace were just and fair no one would receive it. Who on this earth is deserving of grace? I think I’ve provided enough information to make my point. Any further discussion is a waste of time. Your eyes are shut but to those who read this discussion who are seeking truth they will see both sides and be able to determine the truth.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Does it need to say it to understand the whole context of paying/removing sin? It's all justified.. and in some views it is concept to involve suffering. You see, this when you protestants try to defend your arguments of straw "show me scripture". You guys fling it around everytime your arguments and logical reasoning isn't working. You need to take the muslim route in demanding a specific verse when you can't accept a set of verses spelling it out.



Why does what is fair and unfair need to be scripture? It's just basic rationalism and common sense that to just let sins go unpunished, especially sins that have harmed someone, is unjust. Even our court system shows it. If someone killed your family, wouldn't you be upset if the judge just lets this person pass out of forgiveness? No.

Also, you ignored once again v24 and are inserting redundant arguments to take away the fact it showed you how you took v22-23 out of context. I don't get why you are using Jesus' suffering on the cross as counter logic, because that is a really bad argument.

Lets go back to that Christian march; do you think those 2 lives where the only ones effected by their ignorance? What if those 2 people had families they were supporting? What if one of their kids was already in high depression and then this happens, what if their families now lost someone who provides the food on their table? Not only did these Christians kill this person but has now given great stress and life long pain to the people around him.. so here you are being asked, if the Bible says the God is a just God, then how can that be true if this sin the christians made are just washed clean at the end of their lives? Your reply to this was an attempt of "counter-logic" with, "Well Jesus was sinless and sacrificed himself.. that wasn't fair either.."... what argument is that?



zemiothesetai is used and it is translated to "Suffer Loss" in 3:15 not zēmióō. In some uses it can be used in the same sense as punishment but the context is different. That is why it is translated as "Suffer Loss" and not "punishment". The fact that your wording is also incorrect throws away the next couple of blocks you've made trying to tell me what zēmióō is used for in 1 Cor 3:15.

Which is more dangerous? Fully trusting in Christ as your one and only means of atonement that His sacrifice paid for all my sins in full? Or saying that His sacrifice didn’t pay for my sins in full and relying on purgatory to pay for remaining sins? Who will be more likely to be condemned? The one who didn’t believe in purgatory or the one who didn’t believe that Jesus’ sacrifice paid for all his sins?
 
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Which is more dangerous? Fully trusting in Christ as your one and only means of atonement that His sacrifice paid for all my sins in full? Or saying that His sacrifice didn’t pay for my sins in full and relying on purgatory to pay for remaining sins? Who will be more likely to be condemned? The one who didn’t believe in purgatory or the one who didn’t believe that Jesus’ sacrifice paid for all his sins?

Dangerous? What kind of questions and response is this? I gave you a real life event in where christians created traffic that killed 2 people, and if God just sweeps that under the rug, how can he be a just God, and this is your response?
Are you serious with these questions?... dangerous??

As I expected when you come to your own conclusions outside of what the apostles actually taught you are incapable of providing scriptures to support them. Like I said purgatory is formulated based on nothing but assumptions and errors. When they are shown to you and you can no longer defend your beliefs by the scriptures you retaliate with nonsense about sola scriptura.

You misunderstood why I asked if Jesus’ sacrifice was just and fair. Your under the assumption that grace is just and fair and it isn’t. If grace were just and fair no one would receive it. Who on this earth is deserving of grace? I think I’ve provided enough information to make my point. Any further discussion is a waste of time. Your eyes are shut but to those who read this discussion who are seeking truth they will see both sides and be able to determine the truth.
Please do not play the "you did not provide scripture" card, because you know I did.
Your biggest ace in the hole was your Colossians 1:22-23, in where you go "catholics contradict this" yet when 1:24 is shown showing you it's actual context it turned out this entire message was against your argument. Same thing with 1 Cor 3:15. You were then given the verses in Revelation, Matt, Mark. etc etc with addition to real life events with Christians hurting others out ignorance. It's like you never had an interest to look at these things objectively and now you post this to pat yourself on the back.
 
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Dangerous? What kind of questions and response is this? I gave you a real life event in where christians created traffic that killed 2 people, and if God just sweeps that under the rug, how can he be a just God, and this is your response?
Are you serious with these questions?... dangerous??


Please do not play the "you did not provide scripture" card, because you know I did.
Your biggest ace in the hole was your Colossians 1:22-23, in where you go "catholics contradict this" yet when 1:24 is shown showing you it's actual context it turned out this entire message was against your argument. Same thing with 1 Cor 3:15. You were then given the verses in Revelation, Matt, Mark. etc etc with addition to real life events with Christians hurting others out ignorance. It's like you never had an interest to look at these things objectively and now you post this to pat yourself on the back.

Your marching band analogy is completely useless in this discussion. What you think is just or fair is also completely irrelevant. The fact remains that Jesus’ sacrifice has rendered us holy, blameless, and unblemished. We are made right with God, we are justified. You yourself even admitted that the Colossians were not free of sin yet Paul is fully confident that despite their sin they are in fact perfectly justified by Christ’ Sacrifice if they remain in their faith and in the hope of the gospel.

Verse 24 in no way shape or form changes the context of verse 22. Paul’s suffering for the congregations sake is not temporal punishment its martyrdom. Paul is suffering at the hands of men. Not from God’s doing. Paul was not sick, or starving, or dying of thirst or caught in a terrible storm or plague. God causes punishment thru natural events. Paul was beaten and imprisoned by men. God does use the actions of men as His punishment because He does not interfere with free will. When Jonah rebelled against God, God did not cause the men on the boat to beat him and throw him overboard. No He caused a great storm and a giant fish to swallow him and bring him to Nineveh. When God demolished Sodom & Gomorrah He did not cause men to attack one another. He caused a meteor shower. When God punished Egypt He caused a series of plagues. When God punished the world he sent a flood. In every case of God’s punishment He caused natural disasters. Furthermore the very first sentence in verse 24 says Paul rejoices in his suffering for the congregations sake. Temporal punishment is for the sake of the one being punished. God does not punish me for the forgiveness of sin of another person.

I see you completely declined to answer any of my questions regarding grace being just and fair. That God’s grace on us is not just or fair because no one deserves it and if grace were just and fair no one would receive it.

Your the one who played the sola scriptura card and showing scriptures out of context does not count as evidence so you ran away from the scriptures with the usual Roman Catholic defense that it doesn’t have to be written in the scriptures. Only after you failed to produce evidence and I exposed your errors in the RCC interpretation did you resort to denying the scriptures. You fail every time to explain 1 Corinthians 3 verse by verse. You simply jump to verse 15 ignoring the entire context because you cannot piece together where sin, forgiveness, atonement, or purification of the builder is stated in the entire chapter because it’s not there. You fail to recognize that the only works that are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3 is the work of building on the foundation of Christ. That is the only work that is mentioned. You’ve never addressed 1 Corinthians 3:1-15 or even 11-15. Let’s take a look at your explanation of 1 Corinthians 3 shall we?

You quote 1 Cor 3:15 and your verse explanation, but this is a verse popular with catholics in discussing purgatory. In that verse you have the word suffer loss; in greek this is zemiothesetai which is a word used to mean punishment. In short, God uses fire and discipline to reform and purge His children.. to get more understanding of this, start with 1 Cor 3:11-15. Afterwards go to 2 Cor 5:10, and then ask yourself where is this judgement seat? It can't be in heaven sincs nothing unclean can enter there and it can't be hell because that is the death sentence.

Notice you don’t explain anything in the context. That’s because you can’t. I invited you to do a verse by verse explanation and this is all you produced because you know that a verse by verse explanation will destroy the idea of purgatory. You cannot reach the conclusion of purgatory by the scriptures. Surely you must’ve tried at least once at some time and was unable to defend your position. If you didn’t even try then we’re just wasting our time here. If you did try and failed doesn’t that raise the question where does your church get this idea? I even showed the definition for the word zemiothesetai G2210 and gave the Strong’s Concordance reference number so you could check for yourself and you still say my definition is incorrect. It’s not even my definition it’s Greek scholar’s definition.

If you are not aware of what Strong’s Concordance is you should really look into it. It’s a dictionary that has every Greek word used in the Bible along with the type of grammar and definition of them. It’s a very useful tool for determining what the original Greek texts actually taught. You can find it on several websites. It’s like the dictionary for Greek. You can search any English word in the Bible and it will show you the Greek word and Greek definition in English and it will show you how many times it appears in the Bible.

You think I’m your average everyday Protestant but I’m not. I actually agree with more Roman doctrines that you might think. Martin Luther and John Calvin were both very incorrect about the scriptures. Eternal security, predestination, and salvation by faith without works is all incorrect. I don’t believe in any of them. In fact I refute all of these on almost a daily basis here on CF. You can check my profile and see my posts on these topics. Furthermore I actually defend Roman Catholics on many topics like prayers to saints for example, or Mary mother of God (Theostokos). I’m not an anti Catholic Christian but I am anti purgatory. I just wanted you to know this so you think of me as one of the many people who reject all Roman teachings because the Roman church has more correct doctrines than most of the Protestant Churches. Unfortunately purgatory is not one of them. Purgatory was formulated by men who sanctioned the inquisitions giving the Roman Church the authority to arrest, imprison, torture, and in some cases even execute nonbelievers. The Roman Church has officially apologized for the actions of these men who were not acting in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. These men had both the power and authority to stop the inquisitions but they didn’t. 99 popes sanctioned the inquisitions for a period of 686 years from 1184AD-1870AD in several places within the Roman jurisdiction all over the world. The inquisitions were not limited to France and Spain but also parts of Asia, Africa, Portugal, North America, and South America. Where did I get this information? Not some random website but from Britannica.com. The same people that brought us the encyclopedia Britannica. A well known organization with a reputation for stating only the facts. In fact Britannica is admissible as evidence in a court of law in America and several countries worldwide because of their highly respected reputation for writing only the facts. It’s a secular organization I might add that is not biased either towards or against the Roman Church. So they have no reason to attack or venerate the Roman Church. You would learn a lot if you read what Britannica.com has to say on the inquisitions, the East West schism, and the pentarchy.
 
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Cis.jd

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Your marching band analogy is completely useless in this discussion. What you think is just or fair is also completely irrelevant. The fact remains that Jesus’ sacrifice has rendered us holy, blameless, and unblemished. We are made right with God, we are justified. You yourself even admitted that the Colossians were not free of sin yet Paul is fully confident that despite their sin they are in fact perfectly justified by Christ’ Sacrifice if they remain in their faith and in the hope of the gospel.

You know how illogical and completely wrong it would be to call God a just a God and yet these christian marches are just auto-cleaned after death regardless of killing 2 people and giving a life long emotional pain towards their families. What you seem to ignore is the fact that forgiveness of sins doesn't mean a free pass from justice. When looking at this, you have to make sure that your views of God are all accurate in harmony. You have the savior part down but what about the divine Judge and the Just God part? He has to be a full savior and just judge. That is why the view of his sacrifice as if it sweeps all sins under the rug contradicts him as the divine judge.
That Christian march is not useless and you know this because you know deep down those christian marchers did something very bad unintentionally. Your attempt by using Colossians as some verse that contradicts purgatory turned out to contradict you when the v24 was shown. You can't just take verses and say "this is what it means" and leave out the next verse which is supposed to complete the message. That is taking out of context.

Verse 24 in no way shape or form changes the context of verse 22. Paul’s suffering for the congregations sake is not temporal punishment its martyrdom. Paul is suffering at the hands of men.

Your initial argument of v22 was to show me that the Bible is saying that Jesus' sacrifice shows how all sins are now completely gone, hence no need for a purgatory or anything in between because once we die we are clean. But when you were shown v24, you were shown the complete message of it. Paul says that he fills up, for the Church, those things that are wanting or lacking in the sufferings of Christ. If your arguments were correct then Paul would never say that his sufferings fill up for members, and at the sametime Jesus wouldn't have been talking about punishment for sins countless times in the Bible if going by but you say.

I see you completely declined to answer any of my questions regarding grace being just and fair. That God’s grace on us is not just or fair because no one deserves it and if grace were just and fair no one would receive it.
I did not decline anything. You on the other hand not only misused translations and took out verses out of context such as v22-23 but you completely dodged every analogy that showed you a complete and understandable form of rationalism. Just stop. You are just some guy who wants the catholic church to be shown wrong you are not here to look at verses objectively or even take any form of time to read what you are replying to.

Your the one who played the sola scriptura card and showing scriptures out of context does not count as evidence so you ran away from the scriptures with the usual Roman Catholic defense that it doesn’t have to be written in the scriptures. Only after you failed to produce evidence and I exposed your errors in the RCC interpretation did you resort to denying the scriptures. You fail every time to explain 1 Corinthians 3 verse by verse. You simply jump to verse 15 ignoring the entire context because you cannot piece together where sin, forgiveness, atonement, or purification of the builder is stated in the entire chapter because it’s not there. You fail to recognize that the only works that are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3 is the work of building on the foundation of Christ. That is the only work that is mentioned. You’ve never addressed 1 Corinthians 3:1-15 or even 11-15.

Let’s take a look at your explanation of 1 Corinthians 3 shall we? I even showed the definition for the word zemiothesetai G2210 and gave the Strong’s Concordance reference number so you could check for yourself and you still say my definition is incorrect. It’s not even my definition it’s Greek scholar’s definition.

No you were talking about "zemioo" in reference to 1 Cor 3:15. I presented you the greek word "zemiothesetai" and your response was talking to me about "zemioo" .

On the earlier post you said: "I invite you to correct me if you feel that I am in error and please be specific on exactly which verses you believe I have misinterpreted."

Well since you got the word wrong, then that throws all your arguments on this verse out the window because if you have been reading "zemioo" in there, then obviously your view on the verse is wrong. Why was there a need to write a huge block correcting you when you already had the major part incorrect?


Unfortunately purgatory is not one of them. Purgatory was formulated by men who sanctioned the inquisitions giving the Roman Church the authority to arrest, imprison, torture, and in some cases even execute nonbelievers. The Roman Church has officially apologized for the actions of these men who were not acting in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. These men had both the power and authority to stop the inquisitions but they didn’t. 99 popes sanctioned the inquisitions for a period of 686 years from 1184AD-1870AD in several places within the Roman jurisdiction all over the world. The inquisitions were not limited to France and Spain but also parts of Asia, Africa, Portugal, North America, and South America. Where did I get this information? Not some random website but from Britannica.com. The same people that brought us the encyclopedia Britannica. A well known organization with a reputation for stating only the facts. In fact Britannica is admissible as evidence in a court of law in America and several countries worldwide because of their highly respected reputation for writing only the facts. It’s a secular organization I might add that is not biased either towards or against the Roman Church. So they have no reason to attack or venerate the Roman Church. You would learn a lot if you read what Britannica.com has to say on the inquisitions, the East West schism, and the pentarchy.

I will not argue about the sins with in the history of the RCC. I think you and mostly everyone i've talked to have noticed my distain for churches and how I view every church to be corrupt. Nevertheless, what do you think should have happened to those catholics involved with the arrests, imprison, torture.. especially just random henchmen. Did Jesus' saricifice leave them unblemished or gave them a free pass into heaven after they died, if so then explain how that is a just God especially when he didn't answer the injustice done to the people who were tortured by these church people?
 
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Paul says that he fills up, for the Church, those things that are wanting or lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

So Paul’s suffering is not also atonement for the congregation? Is that what your saying?!!

No you were talking about "zemioo" in reference to 1 Cor 3:15. I presented you the greek word "zemiothesetai" and your response was talking to me about "zemioo"

Ok here look at the Greek interlinear for 1 Corinthians 3:15.

1 Corinthians 3:15

15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

15 εἴ (if) G1487 Conj τινος (any) G5100 IPro-GMS τὸ (the) G3588 Art-NNS ἔργον (work) G2041 N-NNS κατακαήσεται (burned) G2618 V-FIP-3S ζημιωθήσεται (loss) G2210 V-FIP-3S αὐτὸς (himself) G846 PPro-NM3S δὲ (yet) G1161 Conj σωθήσεται (saved) G4982 V-FIP-3S οὕτως (so) G3779 Adv δὲ (yet) G1161 Conj ὡς (as) G5613 Adv διὰ (through) G1223 Prep πυρός (fire) G4442 N-GNS

Now let’s compare with Strong’s Concordance.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

loss


G2210


Lemma:

ζημιόω


Transliteration:

zēmióō


Pronounce:

dzay-mee-o'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to affect with damage, do damage to

2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss


Grammar:

from ζημία; to injure, i.e. (reflexively or passively) to experience detriment:--be cast away, receive damage, lose, suffer loss.


Occurrences in Bible:

6


Occurrences in Verses:

6


KJV usage:

lose (2x), suffer loss (2x), be cast away (1x), receive damage (1x).

To the exx. of this verb cited s.v. ζημία we may add P Tebt I. 5.92 (B.C. 118) τοὺς δὲ παρὰ ταῦτα ποιοῦντας θαν [άτωι ζ ]ημιοῦσθαι, and for the more special sense of ";fine"; P Par 47.18 (c. B.C. 153) (= Selections, p. 23) χάριν γὰρ ἡμῶν ἠζημίοται εἰς χαλκοῦ τ (άλαντα) ι ̄ε ̄, ";for on our account he has been fined to the amount of 15 bronze talents,"; BGU IV. 1044.13 (iv/A.D.) ποιήσω ὑμῖς ζημιᾶσθαι (l. ὑμᾶς ζημιοῦσθαι) δέκα ἀντὶ τούτου. For the verb in the inscrr. see Michel 1342.4 (i/B.C.) ἐζημιωμένον ὑπὸ τῶν πρυτάνεων. . . ὀφίλοντα τοὺς κατὰ τὸν νόμον στατῆρας δύο, and OGIS 669.40 (i/A.D.) ὁ τοῦτο ποιήσας ἀπαραιτήτως ζημιωθήσεται. In accordance with the primary meaning of the word ";suffer loss,"; ";receive damage"; (see e.g. the citation from P Flor II. 142.8 s.v. ζημία). Field (Notes, p. 61) translates Luke 9:25 ";and lose, or receive damage in, his own self."; A new verb ζημιοπρακτέω, ";exact punishment from,"; is found in P Tor II. 7.7.

You can find this for yourself at Strong's #2210 - ζημιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon schroll down to the section that says “vocabulary of the Greek NT” and towards the bottom you will see what I pasted. The difference between ζημιωθήσεται (suffer loss or receive damage) and ζημιοπρακτέω (to exact punishment). The word I posted zēmióō is the root word and the actual word that appears in the Greek text which is ζημιωθήσεται as I’ve shown above in the Greek interlinear in bold letters. I have apps on my phone that I use on a daily basis for deciphering the Greek scriptures. The actual word used in the scriptures does not indicate punishment nor does the context in verses 14-15. It implies a contrast of either receiving rewards (verse 14)

1 Corinthians 3:14

14 if of any one the work doth remain that he built on [it], a wage he shall receive;

And not receiving a reward (verse 15)

1 Corinthians 3:15

15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

The work the builder is doing is building on the foundation of Christ. No on received a punishment for building on the foundation of Christ. The fire simply tests the quality of each builder’s work to show if it has any value or not. Punishment neither fits the Greek translation nor the context of the text.
 
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Cis.jd

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So Paul’s suffering is not also atonement for the congregation? Is that what your saying?!!
No... and atonement, what are you talking about?You are trying to hard to circle away from this verse not only are your questions on it being completely off but even the sentence structuring of it shows you are babbling. You are even using vocabulary "atonement", previously "dangerous" which is so random. I don't get how those questions can be thought of in response to my post.

If you read my post i said this: "Paul would never say that his sufferings fill up for members, and at the same time Jesus wouldn't have been talking about punishment for sins countless times in the Bible if going by but you say." This here is in response to your views about Jesus' death giving complete auto-clean of sins, even the sins that haven't been repented and have hurt others. Remember those examples I gave. You know deep down that it is unjust for those Christian Marchers and the Villagers of the Salem witch trials just have their killings swept under the rug and it would also be way too harsh to send them to burn forever in hell over their ignorance.

Ok here look at the Greek interlinear for 1 Corinthians 3:15.

1 Corinthians 3:15

15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

15 εἴ (if) G1487 Conj τινος (any) G5100 IPro-GMS τὸ (the) G3588 Art-NNS ἔργον (work) G2041 N-NNS κατακαήσεται (burned) G2618 V-FIP-3S ζημιωθήσεται (loss) G2210 V-FIP-3S αὐτὸς (himself) G846 PPro-NM3S δὲ (yet) G1161 Conj σωθήσεται (saved) G4982 V-FIP-3S οὕτως (so) G3779 Adv δὲ (yet) G1161 Conj ὡς (as) G5613 Adv διὰ (through) G1223 Prep πυρός (fire) G4442 N-GNS

Now let’s compare with Strong’s Concordance.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
loss


G2210


Lemma:

ζημιόω


Transliteration:

zēmióō

14 if of any one the work doth remain that he built on [it], a wage he shall receive;

And not receiving a reward (verse 15)

1 Corinthians 3:15

15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

The work the builder is doing is building on the foundation of Christ. No on received a punishment for building on the foundation of Christ. The fire simply tests the quality of each builder’s work to show if it has any value or not. Punishment neither fits the Greek translation nor the context of the text.

Well, it's rather useless to still comment on this part of the argument because you are still using zēmióō which isn't the word used in that verse. You were told already that zemiothesetai is used. Why are you still forcing this? You typed this whole thing trying to "educate" me about the whole verse in greek, talking about looking at the "strong" comparisons, yet you are still using the wrong word. You wrote this whole block of nothing.

What is weird here is that you not only brought this verse up but have been determined to get me in to debate with you on it. It's like you've researched and saw some "golden arguments" on some website and you are hoping to use this on me. So when you started with the verse, i gave the greek word for the "suffer loss" and you've been replying about the wrong greek word.. and here you are still trying to explain it using this wrong word. If you want to get passed my response, please argue in use of the right word zemiothesetai.
 
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No... and atonement, what are you talking about?You are trying to hard to circle away from this verse not only are your questions on it being completely off but even the sentence structuring of it shows you are babbling. You are even using vocabulary "atonement", previously "dangerous" which is so random. I don't get how those questions can be thought of in response to my post.

If you read my post i said this: "Paul would never say that his sufferings fill up for members, and at the same time Jesus wouldn't have been talking about punishment for sins countless times in the Bible if going by but you say." This here is in response to your views about Jesus' death giving complete auto-clean of sins, even the sins that haven't been repented and have hurt others. Remember those examples I gave. You know deep down that it is unjust for those Christian Marchers and the Villagers of the Salem witch trials just have their killings swept under the rug and it would also be way too harsh to send them to burn forever in hell over their ignorance.



Well, it's rather useless to still comment on this part of the argument because you are still using zēmióō which isn't the word used in that verse. You were told already that zemiothesetai is used. Why are you still forcing this? You typed this whole thing trying to "educate" me about the whole verse in greek, talking about looking at the "strong" comparisons, yet you are still using the wrong word. You wrote this whole block of nothing.

Post some scriptures of Jesus describing punishment for sins that does not result in loss of salvation.

Notice that I gave actual references from Greek scholars and even the scriptures original Greek text word for word to support my position. Your defense gives absolutely no reference at all. You might’ve done just as well to just say “nuh uh”. Your problem is you believe what your told. You have not studied any of this. That’s why your quotes are copy paste from Catholic websites. If you knew anything about the Greek you would be able to see that the information I provided is correct.
 
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