The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

Ed1wolf said:

If there is no God, then that is where morality comes from since that is where you come from. Right?

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No.

Ed1wolf said:

If we are a product of evolution then everything about us is a product of evolution including morality.

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No. And I do not come from evolution.

Ed1wolf said:

If everything you are experiencing right now is a realistic dream including the entire outside world then there is no objective reality. So how do you or any atheist know that there is an objective reality and everything is not just a realistic dream you are having?

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None of my dreams are realistic. Things regularly operate outside the laws of nature and logic in my dreams. I might be in a fast car being chased by the cops at one moment, then the car I’m driving could instantly turn into a bicycle and the cops turn into a dog and the dog is chasing me. things like this never happen in reality, but constantly happen in my dreams.
How do you as a Christian know this is not just a realistic dream you are having?

Ed1wolf said:

So you concede the point?

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So your question was;
And why and how can the universe operate in an orderly and intelligible way without an intelligent creator?

My response;
the same way a coral reef could be made in an intelligible way without an intelligent creator.

nevermind

Cis.jd said:

nevermind

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Humm..... kinda makes ya wonder why someone would go through the trouble of logging on just to say "never mind".

Ed1wolf said:

The majority of scientists are committed to the philosophy of methodological naturalism, by making that commitment it makes those things out of bounds.

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You're confusing methodological with philosophical naturalism.

Ken-1122 said:

Humm..... kinda makes ya wonder why someone would go through the trouble of logging on just to say "never mind".

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Hey hey my dear

We have some unfinished business. What say u?

Cheers

the iconoclast said:

Hey hey my dear

We have some unfinished business. What say u?

Cheers

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I'm up for anything you wanna talk about my friend!

Eight Foot Manchild said:

Big Bang cosmology has 'proven' no such thing. How many times are you going to misrepresent the same subject in one thread?

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Maybe not proven it, but it is very strong evidence for it and so far no evidence has been found to the contrary.

Ken-1122 said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes it does if you just take one more step in logic as I explained earlier.

ken: Science is not about taking steps in logic

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Fraid so, it is called reasoning. Without reasoning science is impossible.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, nothing discovered by good honest scientists that correctly use the scientific method and strive not to cling to any scientific dogmatic theories will ever discover anything against God's word.
It could go against our incorrect interpretation of His word but it will never actually go against His word.

ken: Nothing in science goes against the words of Halle Selassie either! Should we make Rastafarian a part of science as well?

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I never argued that the bible should be part of science, I just said that there is scientific evidence of its divine origin.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
I didn't say that, but schools in colonial days and even up until the 1960's that did teach the ten commandments produced 95% literacy and no mass killings, very different from schools today which dont, do you think there could be a connection?
ken: The culture was different back then. In those schools that taught the 10 commandments, they also initially had slavery, and after slavery they had Jim Crow laws.

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So what? People are people. What is your point? Having slavery doesn't affect good educational principles, they are valid whether the students are segregated or integrated.

Ken-1122 said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Who says? There are many cases where we have discovered things just using logic to determine a cause after discovering an initially unexplained effect. This is done in science everyday.
ken: Examples?

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Black holes, dark matter, eclipses, and many other things.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
That was relatively speaking as compared to other humans, but understood in the context of the entire bible, which teaches that all humans are sinners in comparison to God's moral law, Job was a sinner too.

ken: I don’t care how much you try to justify it, killing his children was wrong.

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No, actually God was merciful, they deserved to die at birth because of their sin, but He allowed them to become adults.

durangodawood said:

I agree the BB probably had a cause.

But what purposes are there in the universe beyond the ones people cook up?

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Eyes are for seeing, ears are for hearing, legs are for walking, and etc.

Ed1wolf said:

Fraid so, it is called reasoning. Without reasoning science is impossible.

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Reasoning alone is not good enough; there has to be evidence.

Ed1wolf said:

I never argued that the bible should be part of science, I just said that there is scientific evidence of its divine origin.

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Most Bible scholars estimate Moses lead 2.5 to 3 million people out of Egypt and they wondered in the Desert for 40 years. Yet there are no evidence of millions of people wondering in any of the deserts of that area for that long. That lack of evidence is evidence against the claims of the Bible. What scientific evidence do you have that the Bible is divine?

Ed1wolf said:

So what? People are people. What is your point? Having slavery doesn't affect good educational principles, they are valid whether the students are segregated or integrated.

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You act as if people back then were better than we are now. I'm just pointing out that they weren't.

Ed1wolf said:

Black holes, dark matter, eclipses, and many other things.

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Those are not the result of a leap of logic, there was evidence that lead to those things.

Ken-1122 said:

I'm up for anything you wanna talk about my friend!

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Hey hey

Thank you for being so accommodating my friend. ill check out what you have contributed here and get back to you soon.

Cheers

Ed1wolf said:

Eyes are for seeing, ears are for hearing, legs are for walking, and etc.

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Those are functions.

To make them "purposes" you have to have an intending-consciousness, which for now at least, is entirely a matter of faith.

Ed1wolf said:

Maybe not proven it,

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'Maybe' not? Try absolutely not.

Ed1wolf said:

but it is very strong evidence for it

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No there isn't. You don't even know what 'evidence' for such a thing would look like.

Kindly leave astrophysics to the professionals.

DogmaHunter said:

What "purposes"?

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The purpose of eyes is for seeing, ears for hearing, and etc.

Strathos said:

Logical impossibilities are one thing, but that doesn't apply to the action we're talking about.

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How do you know?

Ed1wolf said:

How do you know?

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Because it doesn't contain a logical contradiction. You can say that it's something that God wouldn't do, but not something He can't do.

How do you justify the views of some of the christians here, especially those who are of the radical reformed denominations? Their views are the most despicable, irrational, and lunatic views i've ever seen.

I just don't get how dense you can be to think that a God who created us to be cursed and to worship him or die is somehow a loving/righteous God who is evident in morality? It makes no sense. and whenever you show how irrational that is they just go "well, we are finite in minds" or "well, you just don't know christ that's why".

Ken-1122 said:

Would you consider applying macro to reptiles, or other non mammals?

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There is no evidence that macroevolution occurred in reptiles or other non mammals either.

Eyes Can’t See Everything


Kids walk giddily

Into Sunday school class.

Their teacher awaits

Prepared to smile and laugh.

They learn of great tales

That some can’t believe.

Even the teacher is there

Just to please the community.



She’s what we call

An empty can.

She went to Sunday school,

Every weekend,

But she does not believe

In the tales of old.

No, she’s more interested

In her social appearance of gold.



“Why would an ark,

Or an Egyptian lord matter?

None of these things happened,”

She rattles in mental chatter.

Here’s the thing,

If these things were tales,

Then those tales wouldn’t last.

This is the lesson for that Sunday school class.



For a man to make blind see,

Heal cripples on the street,

And change the world’s destiny

Would seriously freak out everything.

I’m talking panic and chaos in those streets.

Mumbles and grumbles of intense anxiety.

I mean the people who witnessed more than beliefs

Are still preaching these entities.



The word that Jews are chosen

Resonates to their inability to leave.

Persecution in the streets, banishment, and genocide

Could not cleave the Jews from the planet they reside.

Christianity and Islam are of the same faith.

They will not leave this planet the same way that

The empty can mentally portrays,

Because she can’t stop assuming in her finite Space.



The things that happened

Really tweaked this world.

That’s why they resonate

To faithful pearls.

“Maybe there’s something to this religion,”

She finally says.

“I’ll send a prayer to these tales,

And hope for good days ahead.”