God is eternal

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 17, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I'll give it to you Oscarr,

You can be the Author and Finisher of your faith. I'll let you decide to believe that he who began a good work in you will allow you to finish it on the day of Jesus Christ.

I think it unnecessary to further discuss any of this.

I think we are both right in a sense. It is just that we approach things from different directions. I am decidedly Calvinist and believe that God has predestined every person to be conformed to the image of Christ, but as we know, many will never be and will be lost.

I can only comment on how God has revealed Himself to me. I accept that there are many aspects of God that we will never know, because God would not be God if we knew everything about Him. There could very well be attributes of God that are not revealed to us and we may never fully know even after we get to glory.

My approach to the Bible is to confine myself with what the Bible literally says, without delving into any "subtext" or "spiritual" meanings, which to me are speculative and unproven.

Lazarus Short · Jan 17, 2019

JohnB445 said:
Are these things too complex to grasp?

What is the human's scope of understanding?

You may as well try and teach the Calculus to dogs and cats.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

Oscarr said:
How can one know about something that does not exist yet. The only reality is "now". The past only exists in our memories, in books, and on film/video.

I believe that God knows of all the possibilities that can arise out of our decisions, and also knows what His plans are and how He is going to work them out. Jesus said not to plan for tomorrow, because we don't know what tomorrow will bring forth. No one knows, because tomorrow does not exist yet. And no one, including God can know what does not exist and therefore is unknowable.

Oscarr, I agree with Eleos. God knows what we are going to do. He isn't surprised when we make good or bad choices and it doesn't affect His overall plan.

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, according to Scripture. Why would that be necessary, unless God knew before the foundation of the world that Adam and Eve were going to violate the one command he gave Adam?

One of the most amazing things about God is that He can allow free will and yet is so above and beyond that our free will doesn't impact His plan or the outcome for those who truly love Him. I think of the Book of Job. satan was able to take almost everything from Job. he had to use people, natural disasters, etc to do it. When God gave Job back double, there is no indication that he used people more than the apology offerings of his friends and that was simply to restore the relationships. God affected Job's circumstances just like satan had accused God of affecting Job's circumstances before.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

disciple Clint said:
God knows everything? Jeremiah 19:5

Do you really think God was surprised they did that? Or did He know and just not stop it? Do you also believe that God doesn't know when someone is headed to the abortion clinic to get an abortion? He doesn't stop that. I don't see God as an impotent cheerleader just rooting for us to make the right decision and yelling at His giant TV screen when we don't. Still, there are consequences for choices. Just like with Adam and Eve, who He knew were going to sin--otherwise there would have been no reason for Jesus to be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

eleos1954 · Jan 18, 2019

Oscarr said:
If we stick to how God has revealed Himself in the Bible, we can't go wrong. He has revealed Himself as a Person who has a past, present and future. There are places in the Bible narrative where God was angry at the unfolding of events which He did not plan, and changed His mind for Abraham and Moses. Jesus was saddened when He found out that Judas was going to betray Him. We also see many instances of God's sadness over the rebellion and idolatry of Israel and Judah.

When we see how God behaves in certain circumstances, it certainly appears that he does not know every detail of the future and has changed His mind, and has gone to plan B when plan A didn't work.

But some try to go beyond the pages of the Bible and calculate 1 +1 = 3, as they try to describe the nature of God, and end up going into vain philosophy or even science fantasy to dream up a picture of God that is quite unlike the God of the Bible, and someone we could never know or fellowship with.

****

"When we see how God behaves in certain circumstances, it certainly appears that he does not know every detail of the future and has changed His mind, and has gone to plan B when plan A didn't work."

In order for God to change His mind, He would have to improve upon Himself in some way. In other words, if God changed His mind, that action would suggest that His first way of thinking was deficient, but, because we prayed, He improved His plan concerning our situation. We change our minds when we see a better way to do something. We thought plan A but realized plan B was better, so we change our mind. But, since God knows all things, the beginning from the end (Revelation 22:13; Ephesians 1:4), it is not possible for Him to improve upon or change any plan that He has made. His plans are already perfect (2 Samuel 22:31), and He has stated that His plans will prevail (Isaiah 46:9–11).

Regarding our prayers: His will ... not ours

Romans 8:26-27

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Jesus Himself prayed for the will of the Father ... not His own will

Luke 22

41 And He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, where He knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

We submit to the will of the Father. We have complete faith and trust in His will because He is all knowing and His plans are perfect in every way.

Gods will ... thy will be done ... and so in everything it is and it shall be.

Amen and God Bless.

eleos1954 · Jan 18, 2019

Oscarr said:
What you are saying is quite correct in terms of God knowing everything that is knowable.

In terms of Matthew 24:36, The Father knows because He has planned it for a specific time. We don't know whether He originally planned it for sooner, and is delaying it because He wants to make sure that all the conditions line up. If the church had continued in the way He originally planned, then the Day would have come sooner. But the church went in a direction He did not plan and He has taken centuries to bring the church back to where He wants it to be. My belief is that He has not decided when Jesus is to come back yet.

Jesus is God as well, and if the Father knows the future, then so does He and the Holy Spirit. God is all three, then if you are saying that one member of the Trinity knows the future and the other two don't, then that is a contradiction. How can three members of the Trinity in absolute unity have secrets from each other? Doesn't make sense.

*****

Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions ( John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).

Matthew 24:36 clearly states that the Father alone knows when Jesus' return will be. Verses such as John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28-29; 10:30; 12:49; 14:28, 31; and Matthew 26:39, 42 demonstrate Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But Jesus chose to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.

Ken Rank · Jan 18, 2019

JohnB445 said:
How does that look like? Can we know?

He is unchanging. I believe God knows the eternal future as well. And some how allowed and gave us free will.

Are these things too complex to grasp?

What is the human's scope of understanding?

I really do believe that in a fallen temporal state, we are not able to "fully" grasp the spiritual realm nor eternity. That said... eternal in Hebrew is olam. One Hebrew teacher once told me, "Olam is like the horizon. As you drive it is before you, and no matter how far you drive or how fast, it will always remain before you." I like that!

The things we use to tell time are things God created. A day is the rotation of the earth one time, a month the orbit of the moon once, a year the orbit of earth around the sun once. And then we sub-divide those out into hours, minutes, seconds, milliseconds, and so forth. But it all is based on what God created. That fact, and because we are "born into" those boundaries, create in us a paradigm that we simply cannot break free from and it does not allow us to comprehend, to it's fullness, these things. We can get a small glimpse, but nobody has seen the fullness of eternity unless, perhaps, they are dead.

disciple Clint · Jan 18, 2019

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Do you really think God was surprised they did that? Or did He know and just not stop it? Do you also believe that God doesn't know when someone is headed to the abortion clinic to get an abortion? He doesn't stop that. I don't see God as an impotent cheerleader just rooting for us to make the right decision and yelling at His giant TV screen when we don't. Still, there are consequences for choices. Just like with Adam and Eve, who He knew were going to sin--otherwise there would have been no reason for Jesus to be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Johnny, read the passage, God said he was surprised are you saying that God is not telling the truth about Himself?

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

disciple Clint said:
Johnny, read the passage, God said he was surprised are you saying that God is not telling the truth about Himself?

Hi Clint, I re-read it again. I can't even find a Greek word that says God was surprised.

ASV Jeremiah 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
CJB Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Ba'al, in order to burn up their children in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba'al- something I never ordered or said; it never even entered my mind.
KJV Jeremiah 19:5 They have built <01129> (08804) also the high places <01116> of Baal <01168>, to burn <08313> (08800) their sons <01121> with fire <0784> for burnt offerings <05930> unto Baal <01168>, which I commanded <06680> (08765) not, nor spake <01696> (08765) it, neither came <05927> (08804) it into my mind <03820>:
NAS Jeremiah 19:5 and have built <01129> the high <01116> places <01116> of Baal <01168a> to burn <08313> their sons <01121> in the fire <0784> as burnt <05930a> offerings <05930a> to Baal <01168a>, a thing which <0834> I never <03808> commanded <06680> or spoke <01696> of, nor <03808> did it ever enter <05927> My mind <03820>;

So, I read that and understand that God said: "I never told you to do it nor did it even enter my mind to tell you such a thing! But, surely God knew that such was a regular practice of heathen toward their gods--like baal. I also don't think He was surprised when the made the golden calf. I also don't think he was surprised when Adam and Eve sinned. Otherwise, like I shared already, why was Jesus "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" if God didn't know that we would fall into sin and would need a savior. And, Adam and Eve had it real easy. They only had one command!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 18, 2019

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Oscarr, I agree with Eleos. God knows what we are going to do. He isn't surprised when we make good or bad choices and it doesn't affect His overall plan.

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, according to Scripture. Why would that be necessary, unless God knew before the foundation of the world that Adam and Eve were going to violate the one command he gave Adam?

One of the most amazing things about God is that He can allow free will and yet is so above and beyond that our free will doesn't impact His plan or the outcome for those who truly love Him. I think of the Book of Job. satan was able to take almost everything from Job. he had to use people, natural disasters, etc to do it. When God gave Job back double, there is no indication that he used people more than the apology offerings of his friends and that was simply to restore the relationships. God affected Job's circumstances just like satan had accused God of affecting Job's circumstances before.

Although there is nothing to convince me that the actual future is knowable because it does not exist yet, we have no conception of the extent of God's knowledge, awareness of the infinite possibilities, knowledge of trends, and the nature of people, and His ability to predict future possible decision based on current ones. Also, we have little idea of His ability to plan, foresee, and implement what He has planned and purposed in spite of the free will of people. So, with all that in mind, it is easy for many to believe that God really does know every detail of the future. But in actual fact, our knowledge of God and His ways are just a thin slice of the pie, and the 99% of the rest of the pie is totally outside of our knowledge.

What we do know, from how He is revealed to us in the Bible, is that God lives in the same "now" that we live in. He has a much more accurate memory of the past than our fading memories, but He doesn't live in the past at all. If He did, He could change the past to correct all the previous mistakes mankind has made. But the past has gone out of existence. We can have memories, watch movies and videos, read histories that have recorded the past, but no one can go back there to change anything. You have heard the expression, "we can't put the clock back", and it is quite true. We can't.

Also, the moment we come to Christ and repent, God forgets our past. "Your sins and iniquities I will remember no more." How can God go back into a past that He has forgotten?

And if He could go back into the past and change things, He will be very unjust to judge sinners at the last day, because He could have gone back and given the lost sinners another chance to give their lives to Jesus!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 18, 2019

eleos1954 said:
****

"When we see how God behaves in certain circumstances, it certainly appears that he does not know every detail of the future and has changed His mind, and has gone to plan B when plan A didn't work."

In order for God to change His mind, He would have to improve upon Himself in some way. In other words, if God changed His mind, that action would suggest that His first way of thinking was deficient, but, because we prayed, He improved His plan concerning our situation. We change our minds when we see a better way to do something. We thought plan A but realized plan B was better, so we change our mind. But, since God knows all things, the beginning from the end (Revelation 22:13; Ephesians 1:4), it is not possible for Him to improve upon or change any plan that He has made. His plans are already perfect (2 Samuel 22:31), and He has stated that His plans will prevail (Isaiah 46:9–11).

Regarding our prayers: His will ... not ours

Romans 8:26-27

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Jesus Himself prayed for the will of the Father ... not His own will

Luke 22

41 And He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, where He knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

We submit to the will of the Father. We have complete faith and trust in His will because He is all knowing and His plans are perfect in every way.

Gods will ... thy will be done ... and so in everything it is and it shall be.

Amen and God Bless.

So, my answer still is: Why bother to pray in order to change things if we are locked into an unchangeable script. We might as well stay sitting on the couch and let whatever will be, will be.

Oh, that's what the Muslim's Allah is like!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 18, 2019

eleos1954 said:
*****

Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions ( John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).

Matthew 24:36 clearly states that the Father alone knows when Jesus' return will be. Verses such as John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28-29; 10:30; 12:49; 14:28, 31; and Matthew 26:39, 42 demonstrate Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But Jesus chose to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.

Guess work.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

Oscarr said:
And if He could go back into the past and change things, He will be very unjust to judge sinners at the last day, because He could have gone back and given the lost sinners another chance to give their lives to Jesus!

I guess I am missing how that would make God unjust? Seems to me, we all made our bed and deserve the foretold consequence. If God chooses to spare any of us, it will be because we did what He told us to do to have what He promised--we chose to believe. But, when others--with the same knowledge--reject doing the same thing that we were willing to do, how would that make God unjust? It is like the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus. The information they needed was already available according to Abraham. He said if they reject that, they would also reject if one came back from the dead--and how many do that very thing? Does that make it God's fault, if He doesn't keep giving them more chances? NO!

I am certainly thankful that He gives us ample opportunities; but if He only gave one and we rejected it, that is our fault not His. And, we would deserve the consequences.

disciple Clint · Jan 18, 2019

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Hi Clint, I re-read it again. I can't even find a Greek word that says God was surprised.

ASV Jeremiah 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
CJB Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Ba'al, in order to burn up their children in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba'al- something I never ordered or said; it never even entered my mind.
KJV Jeremiah 19:5 They have built <01129> (08804) also the high places <01116> of Baal <01168>, to burn <08313> (08800) their sons <01121> with fire <0784> for burnt offerings <05930> unto Baal <01168>, which I commanded <06680> (08765) not, nor spake <01696> (08765) it, neither came <05927> (08804) it into my mind <03820>:
NAS Jeremiah 19:5 and have built <01129> the high <01116> places <01116> of Baal <01168a> to burn <08313> their sons <01121> in the fire <0784> as burnt <05930a> offerings <05930a> to Baal <01168a>, a thing which <0834> I never <03808> commanded <06680> or spoke <01696> of, nor <03808> did it ever enter <05927> My mind <03820>;

So, I read that and understand that God said: "I never told you to do it nor did it even enter my mind to tell you such a thing! But, surely God knew that such was a regular practice of heathen toward their gods--like baal. I also don't think He was surprised when the made the golden calf. I also don't think he was surprised when Adam and Eve sinned. Otherwise, like I shared already, why was Jesus "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" if God didn't know that we would fall into sin and would need a savior. And, Adam and Eve had it real easy. They only had one command!

What do you think God means when He said "it never even entered my mind."

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

disciple Clint said:
What do you think God means when He said "it never even entered my mind."

That it is not something He would have ever even thought to tell them to do.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 18, 2019

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I guess I am missing how that would make God unjust? Seems to me, we all made our bed and deserve the foretold consequence. If God chooses to spare any of us, it will be because we did what He told us to do to have what He promised--we chose to believe. But, when others--with the same knowledge--reject doing the same thing that we were willing to do, how would that make God unjust? It is like the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus. The information they needed was already available according to Abraham. He said if they reject that, they would also reject if one came back from the dead--and how many do that very thing? Does that make it God's fault, if He doesn't keep giving them more chances? NO!

I am certainly thankful that He gives us ample opportunities; but if He only gave one and we rejected it, that is our fault not His. And, we would deserve the consequences.

The point I was making is if God could go back into the past and change things, He would be unjust to condemn lost sinners if He could go back into the past and give them another opportunity to receive Christ. My point was not about God giving opportunities to receive Christ, which He does more than once, but that God cannot go back and change the past. It has happened, and that is that!

disciple Clint · Jan 18, 2019

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
That it is not something He would have ever even thought to tell them to do.

I see, you could be right. I am thinking that He is saying that He had no ideal that they would do such a thing.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

Oscarr said:
So, my answer still is: Why bother to pray in order to change things if we are locked into an unchangeable script. We might as well stay sitting on the couch and let whatever will be, will be.

Oh, that's what the Muslim's Allah is like!

But, see this is where I disagree. What happens if God already knew and even put on the heart of believers to pray for something, so He could change what would have otherwise been? So, we don't know what would have been the future had God not intervened on behalf of those praying.

But, God can still already know what IS going to happen just like He knew what would have happened, if He didn't intervene.

You are missing the point, there are some things that are unchangeable--God told us what the end is going to look like in many places. No amount of believer praying is going to change the Scriptures. But, for individuals, there is certainly a lot of variation that could play out without it impeding the overall outcome that God told us will happen.

We aren't locked into an unchangeable script as individuals. Just because God knows what choices we will make or what will happen, doesn't mean we can't impact that script on an individual level. And, what if someone's decision not to pray and sit on the couch is actually the reason their end looks like it does, where the one who diligently sought God has moved God on their or someone else's behalf.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

Oscarr said:
The point I was making is if God could go back into the past and change things, He would be unjust to condemn lost sinners if He could go back into the past and give them another opportunity to receive Christ. My point was not about God giving opportunities to receive Christ, which He does more than once, but that God cannot go back and change the past. It has happened, and that is that!

What I was saying is that he has no obligation to give a sinner another chance by changing the past to allow for it. It is like finding fault with the umpire calls the third strike when the batter swung and missed the ball. The batter swung and missed the ball. It isn't the umpire's fault that he is out. I know stupid analogy, but the point remains.

Even if God could change the past, why should He? God could have designed it, so we had no choice and everyone came to Him and nobody hurt each other ever. He allowed us to have free will. We did the destruction. He offered an out from what we deserved. Why should He go back and force people who rejected Him to keep re-making their same bad choices?

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 18, 2019

disciple Clint said:
I see, you could be right. I am thinking that He is saying that He had no ideal that they would do such a thing.

It reminds me of other things God has said. Like what we read in Job where God asked satan "where ya been?" when God knows fully well where satan was, He cast him there! And, with Adam and Eve, God knew what they did. Shoot, He already had a plan for our redemption before the foundation of the world that included the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. God isn't surprised. If He is ever truly surprised, He wouldn't be the God that Scripture talks about. That means it would be possible for satan to do something that God wasn't expecting. Yet, satan even had to ask for permission to sift Peter like wheat.

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