The Assurance of Baptism

LoveofTruth

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"Water" is implied in the normal usage of baptism just like "water" is implied in the normal usage of "shower". If Jesus said: "Dude, you need to take a shower" we would understand that water is implied. We would only take his words to be figurative or metaphorical if he used another word to qualify himself. Like he might say: "Dude, you need to take a spiritual shower". Only then might we suspect that Jesus isn't talking about water.

Since Jesus says: "Go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them..." without at all qualifying "baptism", we should assume that he is using the word in its plain and normal sense.
You worded that wrong, he didn’t say baptizing and then teaching them he told them to teach all nations baptizing them. The spiritual teaching and preaching immersed them into the name...

Here is the correct text and wording

Matthew 28:19. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
 
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Tree of Life

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You worded that wrong, he didn’t say baptizing and then teaching them he told them to teach all nations baptizing them. The spiritual teaching and preaching immersed them into the name...

Here is the correct text and wording

Matthew 28:19. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

That's actually not very precise. The dominant verb in the sentence is μαθητεύσατε which means "make disciples." This is modified by three participles: "going" (πορευθέντες), "baptizing" (βαπτίζοντες), and "teaching" (διδάσκοντες). The apostles were to make disciples by going, baptizing, and teaching. Baptism and teaching are two distinct elements.
 
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LoveofTruth

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"Water" is implied in the normal usage of baptism just like "water" is implied in the normal usage of "shower". If Jesus said: "Dude, you need to take a shower" we would understand that water is implied. We would only take his words to be figurative or metaphorical if he used another word to qualify himself. Like he might say: "Dude, you need to take a spiritual shower". Only then might we suspect that Jesus isn't talking about water.

Since Jesus says: "Go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them..." without at all qualifying "baptism", we should assume that he is using the word in its plain and normal sense.
Water is not always implied with baptism in scripture. As we read

1 Corinthians 12:13. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Notice this is the “one baptism” all must have

Galatians 3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Notice that this speaks of being baptised (Immersed) into Christ not into water.
 
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Tree of Life

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Water is not always implied with baptism in scripture. As we read

1 Corinthians 12:13. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Notice this is the “one baptism” all must have

Galatians 3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Notice that this speaks of being baptised (Immersed) into Christ not into water.

It is unclear whether Paul is referring to water baptism or spiritual baptism in both of these verses. You assume he is talking about spiritual baptism, but you're not demonstrating that Paul is indeed talking about this to the exclusion of water baptism. Of course the verses fit your conclusion because you come to the verses with a conclusion already formed. But if you discard your conclusion and simply let the text speak, you'll see that it could go either way. Perhaps Paul didn't separate the two things as severely as you suppose he did.
 
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LoveofTruth

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@LoveofTruth Did you know that the only major Christian sect which has taken your view on baptism is the Quakers? Are you a Quaker or did you come from a Quaker heritage? Do you read Quaker authors?
I an not a Quaker or Salvation Army and there are others who do not preach water baptism as part of the gospel for salvation. One of them is Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-4 and 1 Cor 1:17

We must follow the truth as we are shown and in the Spirit with scripture also and not rely on the traditions of men .
 
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Tree of Life

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Ian not a Quaker or Salvation Army and there are others who do not preach water baptism as part of the gospel for salvation. One of them is Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-4 and 1 Cor 1:17

We must follow the truth as we are shown and in the Spirit eith scripture also and not rely on the traditions of men .

Sounds like something a Quaker would say.
 
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LoveofTruth

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It is unclear whether Paul is referring to water baptism or spiritual baptism in both of these verses. You assume he is talking about spiritual baptism, but you're not demonstrating that Paul is indeed talking about this to the exclusion of water baptism. Of course the verses fit your conclusion because you come to the verses with a conclusion already formed. But if you discard your conclusion and simply let the text speak, you'll see that it could go either way. Perhaps Paul didn't separate the two things as severely as you suppose he did.
There are many baptisms yet only “one baptism” that saves. Would you say that the saving baptism is spiritual or carnal in an ordinance?

Ephesians 4 - 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”

We do not read of the two being one here just as there is not two faiths etc
 
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LoveofTruth

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Sounds like something a Quaker would say.
The Quakers were right on some things

Actually read Robert Barclays apology discussion on water baptism some good points . But I disagree with some of his points in that letter.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Sounds like something a Quaker would say.
People are often trying to categorize people and thier ideas into a neat little understanding but things are not like that in Christ. We are not to make deniminations and sects
 
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LoveofTruth

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It is unclear whether Paul is referring to water baptism or spiritual baptism in both of these verses. You assume he is talking about spiritual baptism, but you're not demonstrating that Paul is indeed talking about this to the exclusion of water baptism. Of course the verses fit your conclusion because you come to the verses with a conclusion already formed. But if you discard your conclusion and simply let the text speak, you'll see that it could go either way. Perhaps Paul didn't separate the two things as severely as you suppose he did.
It is clear, Paul said it was by “one Spirit” that we are all baptized into one body how much clearer can it be to the unbiased reader?
 
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LoveofTruth

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That's actually not very precise. The dominant verb in the sentence is μαθητεύσατε which means "make disciples." This is modified by three participles: "going" (πορευθέντες), "baptizing" (βαπτίζοντες), and "teaching" (διδάσκοντες). The apostles were to make disciples by going, baptizing, and teaching. Baptism and teaching are two distinct elements.
The KJV got it right I disagree with the commentator you post from

But this KJV talk is about a 45 hr talk. Needless to say I believe the KJV and the wording so if that makes me a different kind of Christian than some who read other text so be it.
 
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LoveofTruth

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That's actually not very precise. The dominant verb in the sentence is μαθητεύσατε which means "make disciples." This is modified by three participles: "going" (πορευθέντες), "baptizing" (βαπτίζοντες), and "teaching" (διδάσκοντες). The apostles were to make disciples by going, baptizing, and teaching. Baptism and teaching are two distinct elements.
The KJV got it right

Mat 28:19 — πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος”
 
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StillGods

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I dont think baptism is necessary for salvation, I think it is symbolic...representing what has already happened to us...an outward witness to others (saved and unsaved) of an inward change that has already taken place through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
 
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I dont think baptism is necessary for salvation, I think it is symbolic...representing what has already happened to us...an outward witness to others (saved and unsaved) of an inward change that has already taken place through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
According to scripture Jesus made affirmative statements concerning baptism.
you will find people in the book of Acts gladly receiving the word being baptized, being told to be baptized, being commanded to be baptized, and choosing to be baptized as a response to their new faith in Christ.
The scripture teaches we are buried with Christ in baptism.
Acts 2:38 claims baptism is for the remission of sins.
Paul was told to go be baptized, and wash away thy sins...
Jesus said you must be born of water..
And you only think its a symbol?
According to the bible baptism is for the remission of sins and is a part of the born again experience.
 
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StillGods

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According to scripture Jesus made affirmative statements concerning baptism.
you will find people in the book of Acts gladly receiving the word being baptized, being told to be baptized, being commanded to be baptized, and choosing to be baptized as a response to their new faith in Christ.
The scripture teaches we are buried with Christ in baptism.
Acts 2:38 claims baptism is for the remission of sins.
Paul was told to go be baptized, and wash away thy sins...
Jesus said you must be born of water..
And you only think its a symbol?
According to the bible baptism is for the remission of sins and is a part of the born again experience.

if baptism is an outward witness of a change (salvation) that has already happened then it symbolizes those things of course but it doesn't save.. Jesus saves.
 
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Tree of Life

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There are many baptisms yet only “one baptism” that saves. Would you say that the saving baptism is spiritual or carnal in an ordinance?

Ephesians 4 - 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”

We do not read of the two being one here just as there is not two faiths etc

The one baptism that saves is Christian baptism. This does not mean that the waters of baptism save apart from faith. But this does mean that Paul views baptism as an integral part of salvation.
 
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Tree of Life

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People are often trying to categorize people and thier ideas into a neat little understanding but things are not like that in Christ. We are not to make deniminations and sects

Sounds like someone who is a sectarian and doesn't know it.
 
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Tree of Life

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It is clear, Paul said it was by “one Spirit” that we are all baptized into one body how much clearer can it be to the unbiased reader?

You believe that you are the unbiased reader? The Holy Spirit does indeed baptize us through the waters of Christian baptism.
 
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The KJV got it right I disagree with the commentator you post from

But this KJV talk is about a 45 hr talk. Needless to say I believe the KJV and the wording so if that makes me a different kind of Christian than some who read other text so be it.

I'm not posting from a commentator. I'm posting from the Greek text.
 
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