Why is Jesus called the Word?

Foxfyre

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I didn't say you were.



Exactly. Jesus was not "God's spoken word."

In the way that John characterized it, yes he was. Jesus WAS God's word because he was God. Which is why John used the metaphor "logos", translated 'word' in English, to define him. As God he spoke God's word. He was God's Word in the flesh. He was fulfillment of prophecy and giver of prophecy.

As in the case with all metaphors, the imagery is to explain or demonstrate a greater truth, and cannot be contained within a narrow 21st Century English definition.
 
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Der Alte

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Why is Jesus called the Word?
Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

.....In the below list, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.
Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.”
[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14;18, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you..
[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. 1 Cor 1:30, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. 1 Cor 1;30, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:
In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).
The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).
Jewish Encylopædia online

 
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Ing Bee

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That's not inconsistent with what I said: that John takes Philo's Logos as a starting point for describing Jesus, and then outlines key differences.
Just to be clear, is it your assertion that Philo is of greater, equal, or lesser importance in John's thought than the Hebrew Old Testament documents he was steeped in from childhood and referenced by Jesus quotes extensively from without reference to Philo?

It could be that you are correct and the John uses Philo as a jumping off point, but if he then goes on to "outline key differences" in what way is Philo's understanding of "logos" important at all? And if John is correcting the erroneous views of Philo using Old Testament understandings of "memra", that proves Philo's thought is not foundational or a jumping off point at all but a deficient understanding of the Jewish scriptures.

Paul quotes directly from Epimenedes and says "as their own poets have said" (Titus 1:12) thus cluing us in to his familiarity with Greek literature. In the present discussion it would be helpful if you could demonstrate by textual comparison where John (in his prologue or elsewhere in his gospel) is unambiguously referencing Philo's thought, since just using the Greek word "logos" doesn't establish anything (its used 331 times in the New Testament).

Plus you didn't answer the most important question: Do you prefer the Hobbit movies or the Hobbit book?
 
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Radagast

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Just to be clear, is it your assertion that Philo is of greater, equal, or lesser importance in John's thought than the Hebrew Old Testament documents he was steeped in from childhood and referenced by Jesus quotes extensively from without reference to Philo?

Well, Philo was also "steeped in the Hebrew Old Testament."

John is correcting the erroneous views of Philo using Old Testament understandings of "memra"

John is building on the Philonian view using direct revelation. The deity of Christ and the truth of the Incarnation was not something John got from the Old Testament.

And, remember, John is not just using the word "logos," he is using "Logos" as the name of an entity. There are pagan Greek uses of "Logos" in that sense, but John is almost certainly relying on Philo.

However, I have no wish to argue the point.
 
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Ing Bee

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Well, Philo was also "steeped in the Hebrew Old Testament."

So the Hebrew scriptures are the common denominator.

John is building on the Philonian view using direct revelation. The deity of Christ and the truth of the Incarnation was not something John got from the Old Testament.

Jesus disagreed with you on that point. Here's what he said in the same gospel:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me," (John 5:39)

I would still like to see some actual textual support that demonstrates conclusively what you are asserting. The above post by Der Alter did a great job of providing textual evidence but so far your posts have a dearth of concrete evidence to substantiate your claims.

I'm open, I just need to see good evidence.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus disagreed with you on that point. Here's what he said in the same gospel:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me," (John 5:39)

Luke 24:45

Without that revelation that is Jesus Himself there remains a veil obscuring the fullness of truth. The rabbis did not expect a conquering warrior for no reason, they were well versed in the Scriptures. What they lacked was the understanding that comes with the One who is the very Word and Revelation of God.

The Old Testament is read in the light of Christ, not the other way around.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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setst777

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I wonder why John 1 sounds like the beginning of Genesis, and if that might tell us if the Word began with Philo or the Old testament.

Your question here more logically reveals John's inspired mindset and understanding of The Word... more so than presuming that John takes his cue from Philo without proof. Could it be that Philo just understood more than other Jewish scholars of his day regarding the Logos but was still in error as to the nature of the Logos?

Also, someone else wrote that the Apostle John would have understood Jesus as the revealing of the Father from Old Testament Scripture, John 5:39 "These are 'the Scriptures' which testify of me."

John also had His own insight from the Spirit of Christ, and Christ's own teaching about Himself while with His Apostles on earth, ie:

John 5:37-39
37 The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.
38 You don’t have his word living in you; because you don’t believe him whom he sent.
39 “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.

Regarding my first point, that John begins His Gospel account, which clearly parallels the Logos of John 1:1-3 with the beginning of Genesis, John would have gained much insight from Genesis itself about the nature of God being one, yet a plurality.

In Gen 1:1, Elohim created the sky and the earth. Then it continues with God creating through His Word and Spirit.

Psalms 33:6 By Yahweh’s Word, the heavens were made;
all their army by the Spirit of his mouth.

The title "Elohim" in Gen 1:1 is one out of many examples in the Old Testament of a grammatical plurality. Though plural, it is understood also as a unity – the Almighty One. (The singular is Ěl [Ayl] or, coming in later, Ěloah (Ay-lō-ah.)

Hebrew word Elohim is used in the plural is that it is translated "gods" (referring to idols) 235 times in the Old Testament. It is exactly the same word that is translated "God," referring to the Almighty.

To show that "Elohim" is not referring to a presumed plurality of majesty as some suppose, although early Jews had no such definition or understanding, we must dig further...

Genesis 1:26-27 World English Bible (WEB)
26 God said, “Let us (plurality of persons) make man in our (plurality of persons) image, after our (plurality of persons) likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in his own image (one in unity). In God’s image (image of God is one being with plurality of persons) he created him; male and female he created them.

God says 'let us make man (Adam) in our image, after our likeness.'

Here we see that God, is speaking with others in Himself, yet only one God created Adam to be in God's image.

When God created man in His own image, although imperfectly, we also see this unity of plurality...

Genesis 5:1-2 (WEB) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man (singular), he made him in God’s likeness. 2 He created them (plurality of persons) male and female, and blessed them. On the day they were created, he named them “Adam” (singular nature).

The one “Adam” was created in the likeness of the one “God” in that Adam, like God, is a plural being.

Now, compare Genesis 5:1-2 with John 1:1-2 and we can see how John would have likely understood - along with a number of other Old Testament Scriptures - that God and His Word would be that one God - unity in the one God...

John 1:1-2 (WEB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Adam, in a similar but not exact way, is like God - a plural unity of one being…

For instance, using the John 1:1-2 format...

In the beginning was the Eve, and the Eve was with the Adam, and the Eve was Adam. The same was in the beginning with Adam.

Eve is of the same substance and nature as Adam - coming form Adam - being with Adam, and is also called "Adam." Very similar language that John uses in John 1:1-2.

Genesis 3:22-23 World English Bible (WEB)
22 Yahweh God said, “Behold, the man (Adam - singular yet plurality of unity - Adam and Eve) has become like one of us (plurality), knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” 23 Therefore Yahweh God (singular being) sent him out from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

And we see the plural unity of God speaking to himself in other places in Genesis. Remember that no one is like God who alone creates.. no one was with God creating all things, just as God reveals repeatedly in Isaiah.

Genesis 11:7-9 World English Bible (WEB)
7 Come, let us (plural) go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So Yahweh (singular) scattered them abroad from there on the surface of all the earth. They stopped building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there Yahweh (singular being) confused the language of all the earth. From there, Yahweh (singular) scattered them abroad on the surface of all the earth.

Now read through the following verses carefully, and see what you find about God's nature...

Genesis 18:1-2 World English Bible (WEB)
18 Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood opposite him. When he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth

Genesis 18:22 World English Bible (WEB)
22 The men turned from there, and went toward Sodom, but Abraham stood yet before Yahweh (one of the three 'men' was Yahweh - no doubt the Word).

Genesis 19:24 World English Bible (WEB)
24 Then Yahweh (The Word) rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh (The Father) out of the sky.

Notice, Yahweh sends Yahweh in many Scriptures, especially in Zachariah.

Also Jesus fulfills what only Yahweh can do in the Old Testament:

'Jesus (Yahweh) is the one whom John prepares the way.'
'Jesus (Yahweh) will come again with His Holy angles to bring judgement.'

Therefore, God in one, yet plural unity...

Deuteronomy 6:4: 'Listen, Israel: Yahweh our Elohim Yahweh is one.” or “Elohim (plural) is united ('echad, singular).”

Here is one more Passage to consider on God's plural nature.

Isaiah 6:8-10 World English Bible (WEB)
8 I heard the Lord’s voice, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”

Then I said, “Here I am. Send me!”

So, one of these Yahweh's is the Logos, who is eventually made flesh to be our redeemer, our Savior, our one Mediator and Judge - all titles of God alone in the Old Testament fulfilled in Christ Jesus - the Word...

Micah 5:2 (KJV)
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Only one Savior of mankind...

Isaiah 45:21-25 World English Bible (WEB)
21 Declare and present it.
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has shown this from ancient time?
Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh?
There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior;
There is no one besides me.

Only one we are to bow down to and worship - God alone who will not share His glory with another....

Isaiah 45:22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by myself. The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not be revoked,
that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.
24 They will say of me, ‘There is righteousness and strength only in Yahweh.’”
Even to him shall men come; and all those who raged against him shall be disappointed.
25 All the offspring of Israel will be justified in Yahweh, and will rejoice!

Fulfilled in Christ...

Philippians 2:9-11 World English Bible (WEB)
9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name; 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

God is the only Savior, and His name is the only name in the Old Testament - fulfilled in Christ...

Acts 4:10-12 World English Bible (WEB)
10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in him does this man stand here before you whole. 11 He is ‘the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.’[a] 12 There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”

Psalm 118:20-24 World English Bible (WEB)
20 This is the gate of Yahweh;
the righteous will enter into it.
21 I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me,
and have become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner.
23 This is Yahweh’s doing.
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day that Yahweh has made.
We will rejoice and be glad in it!
25 Lord, save us! Lord, grant us success!
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
From the house of the Lord we bless you.
27 The Lord is God, and he has made his light shine on us.

John 10:7-9 World English Bible (WEB)
7 Jesus therefore said to them again, “Most certainly, I tell you, I am the sheep’s gate. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep didn’t listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by me, he will be saved, and will go in and go out, and will find pasture.

The Father sends His Word with His Spirit - just as prophesied in the Old Testament...

Isaiah 48:16 World English Bible (WEB)
16 “Come near to me and hear this:
“From the beginning I have not spoken in secret;
from the time that it happened, I was there.”
Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, with his Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17 World English Bible (WEB)
16 Jesus, when he was baptized, went up directly from the water: and behold, the heavens were opened to him. He saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming on him. 17 Behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Jesus (the incarnate Word) is the Holy Arm of God
Isaiah 59:16-19
World English Bible (WEB)
16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor.
Therefore his own arm brought salvation to him; and his righteousness sustained him.
17 He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head.

Fulfilled in Jesus...
1 Timothy 2 (WEB)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times

So many more examples could be given showing the one God is plural in nature, and that this one God the Father has within His nature the Word and Spirit - both of whom the Father sends forth to do all things - to create, to redeem, to save, to judge, and to do all things God does in His creation.

So, it is not unusual that the Apostle John should understand that Jesus is that Word of God incarnate, and that the Spirit was with the Word to accomplish His mission on earth just as prophesied.
 
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Radagast

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Danthemailman

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Scripture is God breathed ... and contains everything God wants us to know about Him, His laws, His love, His character, His ways ... so yes the Word (Jesus) is the embodiment of all those. Didn't state that because I thought that goes without saying. ;o) We wouldn't know about Gods ways without the scriptures.

God Bless.
Yes, Scripture is the WRITTEN Word and Jesus is the LIVING Word.
 
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Ing Bee

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Luke 24:45

Without that revelation that is Jesus Himself there remains a veil obscuring the fullness of truth. The rabbis did not expect a conquering warrior for no reason, they were well versed in the Scriptures. What they lacked was the understanding that comes with the One who is the very Word and Revelation of God.

The Old Testament is read in the light of Christ, not the other way around.

-CryptoLutheran
Hi Crypto-

No argument with you there. Hebrews 11:1-2 indicates that Jesus is the continuing and better revealing of God's unfolding promise.

My comment above was focused on the presence of Jesus in the Old Testament scriptures. That humans were prevented or incapable of recognizing what was there is beside the point. Jesus said that the scriptures testified to him (the divine Son who would come, suffer, die, rise, rule, etc.). Philo's greek conceptual framework is unnecessary.

-Ing Bee
 
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YeshuaFan

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Just to be clear, is it your assertion that Philo is of greater, equal, or lesser importance in John's thought than the Hebrew Old Testament documents he was steeped in from childhood and referenced by Jesus quotes extensively from without reference to Philo?

It could be that you are correct and the John uses Philo as a jumping off point, but if he then goes on to "outline key differences" in what way is Philo's understanding of "logos" important at all? And if John is correcting the erroneous views of Philo using Old Testament understandings of "memra", that proves Philo's thought is not foundational or a jumping off point at all but a deficient understanding of the Jewish scriptures.

Paul quotes directly from Epimenedes and says "as their own poets have said" (Titus 1:12) thus cluing us in to his familiarity with Greek literature. In the present discussion it would be helpful if you could demonstrate by textual comparison where John (in his prologue or elsewhere in his gospel) is unambiguously referencing Philo's thought, since just using the Greek word "logos" doesn't establish anything (its used 331 times in the New Testament).

Plus you didn't answer the most important question: Do you prefer the Hobbit movies or the Hobbit book?
John would have been laying out the Logos from a prominent Hebrew mindset and understand...
 
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YeshuaFan

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Jesus is God.

Scripture is not God.

They are two completely different things.
Both the scriptures and Jesus are the infallible revelation from God to us, its that the Bible was the written one, and Jesus was and is God Incarnate!
 
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eleos1954

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Yes, Scripture is the WRITTEN Word and Jesus is the LIVING Word.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Amen.
 
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Danthemailman

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Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Amen.
Why is it alive and active? What makes it alive and active?
 
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