Ellen White's Sabbath in Eden is Not Biblical

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Dale said:

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

Click to expand...

Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

All those sources agree - the Bible says Sabbath begins in Eden.

Albion said:

But was it given to Adam and Eve by God?

Click to expand...

In the Bible when God makes something on Earth holy - it obligates mankind to treat it is holy.

Albion said:

Yes, but the point of that mention was that saying Saturday is special and the day of worship is one thing, but the law that we are constantly told by Sabbatarians must be adhered to speaks of duties that could not apply to Adam and Eve while in the garden. .

Click to expand...

Like resting -- Ex 20:8-11
Like - solemn assembly Lev 23:1-3??
Like - worship Is 66:23 ??
Like - not getting side tracked to secular topics? Isaiah 58:13??
"worship Him who created the heavens and the earth" Rev 14:7

Adam and Eve had no capacity for that? really?

BobRyan said:

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since....

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
………….…………………………………………………………………………………….

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Click to expand...

I take this to mean that this is another case of Ellen White simply relaying aspects of church history and calling it revelation. But you did make your point that Sabbatarians are not alone on that issue.

BobRyan said:

Like resting -- Ex 20:8-11
Like - solemn assembly Lev 23:1-3??
Like - worship Is 66:23 ??
Like - not getting side tracked to secular topics? Isaiah 58:13??
"worship Him who created the heavens and the earth" Rev 14:7

Adam and Eve had no capacity for that? really?

Click to expand...

Handle the other examples that were mentioned earlier if you want to ask me that question..

Albion said:

Yes, but the point of that mention was that saying Saturday is special and the day of worship is one thing, but the law that we are constantly told by Sabbatarians must be adhered to speaks of duties that could not apply to Adam and Eve while in the garden. .

Click to expand...

Like resting -- Ex 20:8-11
Like - solemn assembly Lev 23:1-3??
Like - worship Is 66:23 ??
Like - not getting side tracked to secular topics? Isaiah 58:13??
"worship Him who created the heavens and the earth" Rev 14:7

Adam and Eve had no capacity for that? really?

Albion said:

Handle the other examples that were mentioned earlier if you want to ask me that question..

Click to expand...

Not sure what you are talking about - but I take it that you already accept the above as "valid" for Adam and Eve in Eden.

Albion said:

I take this to mean that this is another case of Ellen White simply relaying aspects of church history and calling it revelation.

Click to expand...

How is it that a quote of D.L. Moody or the Bible is a case of Ellen White claiming revelation in your mind??

Ellen White claimed to have been shown the fall of Adam and Eve - but she did not claim that she was the only one in all of time that knew about Adam and Eve falling into sin or that all the Bible texts on that topic did not already exist.

More to the point -- the entire OP is refuted by the point you are trying to make - and also the point that I am making.

Major1 said:

SEE, I told you so! It makes absolutely no difference what you say, the SDA'S will always have an answer to defend their personal non-Biblical denominational doctrines.

Click to expand...

LOL!! That should tell you something!! We answer with scripture. And we answer with definitions of Hebrew words and we answer with historical facts. Everything we adhere to--is proveable to be totally scriptural., What you have chosen to believe are Catholic and a mix of Catholic and pagan believes that are not defendable with scripture---everlasting burning hell is not biblical, we are not alone in that believe for other denomination also do not belive in an everlasting burning hell. The bible does not support an immortal soul, the bible supports God alone is immortal. Sorry--but if you can't point to scripture to prove your point--it is not our fault. It is not our fault that you can not produce one verse that says Jesus says we are to worship on the 1st day of the week.

mmksparbud said:

LOL!! That should tell you something!! We answer with scripture. And we answer with definitions of Hebrew words and we answer with historical facts. Everything we adhere to--is proveable to be totally scriptural., What you have chosen to believe are Catholic and a mix of Catholic and pagan believes that are not defendable with scripture---everlasting burning hell is not biblical, we are not alone in that believe for other denomination also do not belive in an everlasting burning hell. The bible does not support an immortal soul, the bible supports God alone is immortal. Sorry--but if you can't point to scripture to prove your point--it is not our fault. It is not our fault that you can not produce one verse that says Jesus says we are to worship on the 1st day of the week.

Click to expand...

You said...……….
"Everything we adhere to--is provable to be totally scriptural".

1). Then prove by Scriptures how Jesus showed up to cleanse the Temple in Oct. 22, 1844.

2). Prove by the Scriptures that Saturday is to be a day of WORSHIP.

3). Prove by the Scriptures that Sunday worship will result in the “Mark of the Beast,”.

4). Prove by the Scriptures that the “Remnant Church” doctrine that teaches that the SDA is God’s only true church.

5). Prove by the Scriptures the Investigative Judgment.
First taught in Adventism by Hiram Edson, F.B. Hahn, and O.R.L. Crosier, it was accepted as “present truth” by those who would later become known as Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) after it was confirmed and taught in visions received by Ellen G. White.

DO NOT post opinions or ideas or what someone told you. POST THE SCRIPTURES with confirm these false doctrines. And please do not post long unreadable presentations.

ONE Scripture per number will be acceptable.

BobRyan said:

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.



Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

All those sources agree - the Bible says Sabbath begins in Eden.



In the Bible when God makes something on Earth holy - it obligates mankind to treat it is holy.

Click to expand...

None of that is acceptable. The truth is that no where in the Scriptures is there any mention of SATURDAY being a day to Worship!!!

I understand your need to believe what you have been taught, but the word "Sabbath" is never found in the book of Genesis.

The first case of Sabbath keeping was in Exodus 16 at Mt. Sinai. Here Jehovah gave Moses the "Ten Commandments", for the first time in world history. If the Ten commandments did not exist before Moses, then neither did the 4th commandment unless we find some command or example before Moses. The truth is that Adam never kept the Sabbath, nor did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph or anyone in while in Egyptian bondage.

Fathers prior to Egypt did not keep the Sabbath: Deut 5:2-3...……
"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

How can that be so hard to understand??????

Now the first mistake is that every time YOU as and SDA advocate see "my commandments" they assume it is the ten commandments.

Ok lets run with this for a minute. Assume they are right. Then what does My statutes and My laws refer to? Well the ceremonial law of Moses of course.

If "my commandments" refers the to 10 commandments, then My statutes and My laws refers to the ceremonial law of Moses!

So Seventh-day Adventists read into the text the text the 10 commandments, but ignore the obvious reference to what they call the ceremonial law of Moses.

The verse proves too much for them, so they merely ignore everything but the phrase "my commandments".

BobRyan said:

Like resting -- Ex 20:8-11
Like - solemn assembly Lev 23:1-3??
Like - worship Is 66:23 ??
Like - not getting side tracked to secular topics? Isaiah 58:13??
"worship Him who created the heavens and the earth" Rev 14:7

Adam and Eve had no capacity for that? really?



Not sure what you are talking about - but I take it that you already accept the above as "valid" for Adam and Eve in Eden.

Click to expand...

Incorrect again my dear friend.

All the Jewish holy days are never introduced the first time in scripture with the definite article "the" but with the indefinite "a" or "an".

The indefinite article is used both before and after something has been instituted, but the definite article (THE Sabbath) is never used the first time something is introduced.

This powerful argument proves that the weekly Sabbath did not exist before Ex 16:23.

What makes it irrefutable, is the fact that every Jewish Holy Day follows this same pattern!

Major1 said:

You said...……….
"Everything we adhere to--is provable to be totally scriptural".

1). Then prove by Scriptures how Jesus showed up to cleanse the Temple in Oct. 22, 1844.

2). Prove by the Scriptures that Saturday is to be a day of WORSHIP.

3). Prove by the Scriptures that Sunday worship will result in the “Mark of the Beast,”.

4). Prove by the Scriptures that the “Remnant Church” doctrine that teaches that the SDA is God’s only true church.

5). Prove by the Scriptures the Investigative Judgment.
First taught in Adventism by Hiram Edson, F.B. Hahn, and O.R.L. Crosier, it was accepted as “present truth” by those who would later become known as Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) after it was confirmed and taught in visions received by Ellen G. White.

DO NOT post opinions or ideas or what someone told you. POST THE SCRIPTURES with confirm these false doctrines. And please do not post long unreadable presentations.

ONE Scripture per number will be acceptable.

Click to expand...

I will post whatever length it takes to explain something!! The decision to read or not is not my problem!! Your inability to read is something I can not do anything about!

If you want the Readers' Digest version of the concept--you can even go to Wiki--

Heavenly sanctuary - Wikipedia

We take the whole bible--not just a scripture or 2. Therefore something's take a lot more than a scripture.
Isa_28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Jesus is our High Priest---read Hebrews, the whole book explains that and I am not about to post the whole book of Hebrews. As such He is the only Priest that now stands before God and applies His blood to the soul that is brought to Him to cleanse him from sin. When Jesus comes back, His reward is with Him, the decision as to who is saved or not will already have been made. He comes only for the saved.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus is our High Priest in the Temple in heaven.

Rev_14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev_15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev_15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev_15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

When His work in the temple is done--that is it. He comes back for us. As to the date--
Dan_8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
He wrongfully assumed that the sanctuary meant the earth would be cleansed and he wrongfully thought that would be to mean that Jesus would return.

You then have to return to the sanctuary services to understand what the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary meant.
Lev 16:33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
The 1844 date is derived from the application of the day-year principle to Daniel 8:14. The starting year for calculating 1844 is seen as the command to restore and rebuilt Jerusalem by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. on the basis of Daniel 9:24-27.

Major1 said:

I understand your need to believe what you have been taught, but the word "Sabbath" is never found in the book of Genesis.

Click to expand...

The word Trinity is found nowhere in the whole bible---so???

I understand your need to believe the false ideas you have been taught---The word Sabbath is never applied to Sunday anywhere in the whole bible.

mmksparbud said:

I will post whatever length it takes to explain something!! The decision to read or not is not my problem!! Your inability to read is something I can not do anything about!

If you want the Readers' Digest version of the concept--you can even go to Wiki--

Heavenly sanctuary - Wikipedia

We take the whole bible--not just a scripture or 2. Therefore something's take a lot more than a scripture.
Isa_28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Jesus is our High Priest---read Hebrews, the whole book explains that and I am not about to post the whole book of Hebrews. As such He is the only Priest that now stands before God and applies His blood to the soul that is brought to Him to cleanse him from sin. When Jesus comes back, His reward is with Him, the decision as to who is saved or not will already have been made. He comes only for the saved.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus is our High Priest in the Temple in heaven.

Rev_14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev_15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev_15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev_15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

When His work in the temple is done--that is it. He comes back for us. As to the date--
Dan_8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
He wrongfully assumed that the sanctuary meant the earth would be cleansed and he wrongfully thought that would be to mean that Jesus would return.

You then have to return to the sanctuary services to understand what the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary meant.
Lev 16:33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
The 1844 date is derived from the application of the day-year principle to Daniel 8:14. The starting year for calculating 1844 is seen as the command to restore and rebuilt Jerusalem by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. on the basis of Daniel 9:24-27.





The word Trinity is found nowhere in the whole bible---so???

I understand your need to believe the false ideas you have been taught---The word Sabbath is never applied to Sunday anywhere in the whole bible.

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My dear friend, I do not care if you take a couple of years to post your opinions. I was only saying to you that if you post another long post that I for one will not take the time to read it. Do whatever YOU want to do.

It is very sad to me to see such an educated person be so thoroughly confused.

1st of All, your error is in trying to make Church doctrine out of the book of the Revelation. That is IMPOSSIBLE to do! The book is proleptic and is focused on the Nation of Israel.

There is your 2nd error. As a proponent of Replacement Theology you have believed against ALL Scripture that the Church has replace the nation of Israel and that is also IMPOSSIBLE!

Then your 3rd error is in wrongly believing William Miller and Ellen White.

The whole context of Daniel 8 is concerning Daniel's vision. As a SDA you have been taught that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 is the Roman power. WRONG!!!!

The "little horn" in proper context has been proven to refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who during the last few years of his reign made a determined effort to destroy the Jewish faith. He captured the temple, and caused the daily sacrifice to cease (v11), but was eventually overcome by Judas Maccabeus, who recaptured the temple and rededicated it to the Lord on 25th Chislev three years and ten days later, about 165 B.C.

REAL HISTORY MATTERS my dear friend.

The bottom line my friend is that YOU proved absolutely nothing by the Scriptures!!!

Major1 said:

My dear friend, I do not care if you take a couple of years to post your opinions. I was only saying to you that if you post another long post that I for one will not take the time to read it. Do whatever YOU want to do.

It is very sad to me to see such an educated person be so thoroughly confused.

1st of All, your error is in trying to make Church doctrine out of the book of the Revelation. That is IMPOSSIBLE to do! The book is proleptic and is focused on the Nation of Israel.

There is your 2nd error. As a proponent of Replacement Theology you have believed against ALL Scripture that the Church has replace the nation of Israel and that is also IMPOSSIBLE!

Then your 3rd error is in wrongly believing William Miller and Ellen White.

The whole context of Daniel 8 is concerning Daniel's vision. As a SDA you have been taught that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 is the Roman power. WRONG!!!!

The "little horn" in proper context has been proven to refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who during the last few years of his reign made a determined effort to destroy the Jewish faith. He captured the temple, and caused the daily sacrifice to cease (v11), but was eventually overcome by Judas Maccabeus, who recaptured the temple and rededicated it to the Lord on 25th Chislev three years and ten days later, about 165 B.C.

REAL HISTORY MATTERS my dear friend.

The bottom line my friend is that YOU proved absolutely nothing by the Scriptures!!!

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Bottom line is---you are not reading the bible or anything else, but believing only what you have been told is true. I prefer to let the bible interpret itself instead of making up my own theories but if you are happy with your believes...…..
Your believes about the little horn probably derive from McHarg. I will give just this for now about that.

"Daniel 8 consists of a vision about three entities, a ram, a goat, and a little horn (Daniel 8: 3-12), followed by an audition (Daniel 8:13, 14). The rest of the chapter (Daniel 8:15-26) was an explanation of the vision.

Who were these beasts? Surprise of surprises, they were world empires, just as in Daniel 2 and 7. The ram, first depicted as “great” (Daniel 8:4), was named for us as Media-Persia (Daniel 8:20). The goat, depicted as “very great” (Daniel 8:8), was named for us as Greece (Daniel 8:21). Then comes the last power, the little horn, described as “exceeding great” (Daniel 8:9).

So, for starters, this little horn power is greater than either Media-Persia or Greece, and yet it is supposed to be Antiochus Epiphanes, as Mr. McHarg insists? Who could possibly make the claim that Antiochus Epiphanes, who came out of one of the four kingdoms after the demise of Alexander the Great, created an empire greater than either Greece or Media-Persia? He didn’t even come close to matching them, much less exceeding them, as did the little horn. Antiochus ruled only one portion of the busted up Greek empire and not with great success, either. The depiction of the little horn as greater than either Greece or Media-Persia—that alone proves that whoever the little horn is, it can’t be Antiochus.

(McHarg’s argument about “exceeding great” pointing to Antiochus attack on the Jews doesn’t work. Yes, Antiochus persecuted the Jews in a big way, but that still doesn’t make him and his empire greater than what come before. The argument hinges on the idea that we interpret the text through how others in the past might have seen it, but that’s not how we interpret Scripture. Some thought Napoleon was the anti-Christ; that hardly makes it so. The text makes the little horn greater than either Media-Persia or Greece, which Antiochus, even when persecuting the Jews, wasn’t.)

Instead, what world power, arising after Greece, and greater than either Greece or Media-Persia—the same power that appears in both Daniel 2 and 7—is depicted here?"

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Dale said:

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

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Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

All those sources agree - the Bible says Sabbath begins in Eden.

Albion said:

But was it given to Adam and Eve by God?

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In the Bible when God makes something on Earth holy - it obligates mankind to treat it is holy.

Major1 said:

None of that is acceptable.

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It is all acceptable as proof of Bible details soooo incredibly obvious that BOTH sides admit to those details.

So far you have presented us with nothing even close to that level of objectivity. And it fully refutes the title of this thread.

I understand your need to believe what you have been taught

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I understand your need to believe that I was taught by D.L.Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith in my Sabbath School class but that did not happen.

The first case of Sabbath keeping was in Exodus 16

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false. As Ex 20:11 points out -- directing the reader not to Exodus 16 - but to Genesis 2:1-3
As Christ points out in Mark 2:27

Bible details soooo incredibly obvious that BOTH sides of the debate freely accept them. So far you have found nothing close to that.

How can that be so hard to understand?????? -- when BOTH sides freely admit to these obvious Bible facts??

Now the first mistake is that every time YOU as and SDA advocate see "my commandments" they assume it is the ten commandments.

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The first mistake you make is thinking that D.L.Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith must be "SDA advocates"

Ok lets run with this for a minute. Assume they are right. Then what does My statutes and My laws refer to?

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Gen 26:5 says the same thing about Abraham long before the Levitical laws. Bible details that that D.L.Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith
freely admit to - since they are so incredibly obvious.

Because I was quoted (albeit in a minor way) in that post, I believe that for there to be any meaningful continuation of the discussion, the particular issues relating to the OT Sabbath that were raised earlier will have to be addressed.

Albion said:

Because I was quoted (albeit in a minor way) in that post, I believe that for there to be any meaningful continuation of the discussion, the particular issues relating to the OT Sabbath that were raised earlier will have to be addressed.

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Fine -- something was said "earlier" and you would like it addressed..

Got a quote?
a link ?

Major1 said:

Incorrect again my dear friend.

All the Jewish holy days are never introduced the first time in scripture with the definite article "the" but with the indefinite "a" or "an".

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grasping at straws?

It is your own sunday keeping group that admits to the Ex 20:11 Bible detail about Genesis 2:1-3 Sabbath in Eden.

Albion said:

But you did make your point that Sabbatarians are not alone on that issue.

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Indeed and - that refutes the title and OP

BobRyan said:

Fine -- something was said "earlier" and you would like it addressed..

Got a quote?
a link ?

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See the OP.

Albion said:

See the OP.

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from the OP

Dale said:

Those who go to church on Saturday, or advocate Sabbath observance, often say that God ordained the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. It is assumed that Christians are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments,

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Albion said: ↑
But you did make your point that Sabbatarians are not alone on that issue.

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Indeed as we saw here even the non-Bible Sabbath scholarship agrees that the Sabbath commandment begins for mankind in Eden- Yesterday at 11:46 PM #154

How much of the OP do you want to see disproven?

Dale said:

Exodus 35:3 prohibits lighting a cooking fire

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Not "lighting" (no gas stoves back then) rather "kindling a fire" in the "actual text". And for anyone who has ever watched a survival show demonstrating the hours of "work" it takes to "kindle a fire" ... the point remains -- we would not do such a thing.

Interesting how your opposition to God's Sabbath goes to "I want to kindle a fire on Sabbath so not going to keep Sabbath"


on the Sabbath. Yet Genesis gives the impression that Adam and Eve never used fire until they left Eden. While in Eden, Adam never hunted or killed an animal and Eve never cooked. No crop had ever been planted or harvested. How did they refrain from doing these things on the Sabbath if they never did them?[/quote]

They did not have to kill an animal or plant crops to "gather manna" - but Ex 16 says not to go out and forage for food on the Sabbath either. Even the Sunday Scholarship Yesterday at 11:46 PM #154 as we saw - would not allow it.

It is a day of rest, and worship, and solemn assembly etc.

So then things like -
Like resting -- Ex 20:8-11
Like - solemn assembly Lev 23:1-3
Like - worship Is 66:23
Like - not getting side tracked to secular topics Isaiah 58:13
"worship Him who created the heavens and the earth" Rev 14:7

Major1 said:

Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath?

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Why is no one before Ex 20 told not to take God's name in vain?
Why is no one before Ex 20 told to Honor their parents?
Why are neither of those in the Acts 15 council decision?

Probably because playing those sorts of games - is not a form of "exegesis" or well grounded Bible study principle

BobRyan said:

from the OP




Indeed as we saw here - Yesterday at 11:46 PM #154

How much of the OP do you want to see disproven?



They did not have to kill an animal or plant crops to "gather manna" - but Ex 16 says not to go out and forage for food on the Sabbath either. Even the Sunday Scholarship Yesterday at 11:46 PM #154 as we saw - would not allow it.

It is a day of rest, and worship, and solemn assembly etc.

So then things like -
Like resting -- Ex 20:8-11
Like - solemn assembly Lev 23:1-3
Like - worship Is 66:23
Like - not getting side tracked to secular topics Isaiah 58:13
"worship Him who created the heavens and the earth" Rev 14:7

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So you see, no matter what the Bible says about the Sabbath being nailed to the cross, Adventists won't believe what the Bible says if it contradicts their inspired prophet Ellen G. White. NOW that is the bottom line here.

You are so entrenched in SDA doctrine that you can not even answer the simplest of question. For example...…….
If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis?

Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath?
Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?

If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?

1. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?
2. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians ate the Lord's Supper every Sunday in the tradition of Acts 20:7?
3. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians always called Sunday the Lord's Day because, they said, this was the day Jesus rose from the dead?
4. Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?