Eschatology for dummies :)

mkgal1

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So, putting together what I'm hearing, I guess I'm a partial preterist? I don't believe all the prophecies were referring to AD 70 but I certainly believe some of them were.
It's not so much that all the prophecies were referring to the destruction in 70 A.D. - the prophecies were in reference to Jesus, but the destruction of Jerusalem, the end of the Levitical priesthood, and the end of the Mosaic law are deeply significant.

But, yes, it sounds as if you align with partial preterists
 
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mkgal1

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I just learned this today and found it interesting:


Apocalypse" (ἀποκάλυψις) is a Greek word meaning "revelation", "an unveiling or unfolding of things not previously known and which could not be known apart from the unveiling".
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I just learned this today and found it interesting:

Apocalypse" (ἀποκάλυψις) is a Greek word meaning "revelation", "an unveiling or unfolding of things not previously known and which could not be known apart from the unveiling".
Good catch!
Revelation is "Covenantle" imho........

That is shown by the use of the root word #2572 in 2 Corinthians 3 concerning the "veil of Moses".........

Revelation 1:1
An unveiling/revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

602. apokalupsis from 601;
disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
575. apo apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near),

2572. kalupto
kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928;
to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

2 Corinthians 3:
12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
13 and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,

14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain—no being uncovered<303> which in Christ is being made useless —
15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away.
17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;
18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed,
from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


2571. kaluma kal'-oo-mah from 2572; a cover, i.e. veil:--vail.

Jesus repeats Rev 1:1 twice, using the phrase "in swifness"

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Revelation 1:1
An-un-covering-revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him,
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6

And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True.
And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
============================================
And there is the "nigh at hand":

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and the keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the Time is NIGH AT HAND/egguV <1451>.

Revelation 22:10

And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of this Scroll,
For the Time Is NIGH AT HAND/egguV <1451>

I have a translation of Revelation chapter 1 if any here wants to add input.......

Commented on:
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
apokaluyiV<602>
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
in swiftness/en tacei
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
signifies-it,/eshmanen<4591>
...........................................CHAPTER 1

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

Reve 1:1
An unveiling/revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.


All the Greek texts agree.....No variances

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Byzantine Majority
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

Alexandrian
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

Hort and Westcott
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken auto o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
 
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mkgal1

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A key passage for preterists is Matthew 24-25 (Jesus' Olivet Discourse). Here's a page that has a parallel study and other links attached pertaining to the fulfillment of this:

Olivet Discourse Fulfilled

I went back over the weekend to listen to a sermon from our former denomination, because I wondered how I could have missed this for so many years. The pastor went into what was going on in Jerusalem at the time.....but then swerved over and began teaching about heaven/hell. I don't think that's particularly relevant to the passage - and, in my opinion - dilutes the message that Jesus' prophecies (and the prophet's) were fulfilled in Jesus.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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:) as Christ is truth and never lies.. I would get rid of the word dummies lol..
Perhaps ehehehe

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
Abraham’s Bosom By J. Preston Eby

...........The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? ...........

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity.

LUKE 16:
14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.
15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts.
What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

19 "There was a certain rich Man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."


So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood.
With that in mind, let's see what God told Moses just before giving the Israelites the Law on Mount Sinai:
Verse 19 also tells us that the rich man "fared sumptuously every day."
Figuratively, this represents the magnificent spiritual feast available only to the Jews, who were the sole remaining part of God's called people, Israel.

.In the 1st century CE, they were the only people on earth who had the true religion.
Indeed, Paul recounts the glorious station of the House of Judah in Romans 9:..........

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"?
The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places
would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe

========
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table.
Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."


In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar.
This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah......


OC JERUSALEM/TEMPLE AND PRIESTHOOD:
Luke 16:19
"There was a certain rich Man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."


Rev 18:

7 'As much as she did glorify herself and did revel, so much torment and sorrow give to her, because in her heart she saith, I sit a Queen, and a widow I am not, and sorrow I shall not see;
16 and saying, Woe, woe, the great City, that was arrayed with fine linen, and purple,
......because in one hour so much riches were made waste!
===============================
 
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mkgal1

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I found this article, and thought it's a good contrast between dispensationalism and covenant theology (and how the two schools interpret a passage differently):


Quoting linked article---->I realize that many of my readers are unfamiliar with the term “dispensationalism.” In short, it is one of the many frameworks for interpreting or understanding the whole of scripture. The view is popularly known and represented by the “Left Behind” movie series. While it is thought by many to be an unimportant side topic relating to the “end-times” and the “rapture”, it really has more practical implications concerning the history of redemption, the Christian’s view of evangelism, the church, culture and the Kingdom of God.

In dispensational theology the church age is a provisional parenthesis designed to gather in the gentiles while God’s OT people, the Jews, are temporarily placed on the sidelines. In their view the church was never intended to be God’s primary instrument for the furtherance of his Kingdom, the Jews were. In fact, dispensationalists understand the church age to be a temporal, failing, dispensation that will culminate in it being raptured out of this world and in God returning his attention to the blood-line of Abraham.

On the flip side, covenantal theologians have insisted the opposite. Covenantal theologians believe that the church IS what God had in mind when he promised the OT people that his Kingdom would flourish throughout the earth. Yes, the blood-line of Abraham were to be blinded for a season, but they do not believe in two distinct peoples of God. Instead, believing Gentiles have been grafted into an already existing people, remain one in Christ, and are Abrahams offspring, heirs according to promise.

How both sides interpret the parable of the mustard seed reveals quite a bit about these polar opposite views.

He put another parable before them, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.'” (Matthew 13:31-32)

In the dispensational view, this is a parable depicting something negative about the church. David Guzik says, “Some regard this as a beautiful picture of the church growing so large that it provides refuge for all the world. But this mustard seed plant has grown into a monstrosity, and it harbors birds – who, in the parables, are emissaries of Satan.” Similarly other dispensationalists such as Chuck Smith and Jon Courson of Calvary Chapel as well as J. Vernon McGee say the same. To the dispensationalist this is a parable about a church that eventually fails, growing into a world power and hosting all sorts of evil.

Covenantal theologians on the other-hand view this as a positive parable concerning the church. The puritan Matthew Henry even goes as far as to refer to the birds as the people of God, “The church is like a great tree, in which the fowls of the air do lodge; God’s people have recourse to it for food and rest, shade and shelter.”

What’s the true meaning of the birds in this parable? Is Christ optimistic about his church or is he pessimistic?

I’d like to think that when he stated that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18) that he was being consistent. The OT sheds some light on this parable. The same picture is used in Daniel 4:11-12 to illustrate the breadth, power and fruitfulness of the babylonian kingdom under Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. The beasts of the field and birds of the air that found refuge in it represented the beneficiaries of the kingdom (all flesh found refuge in it). Again the same illustration is used in Ezekial 17:22-24; except this time it’s the Kingdom established by God and it happens to overshadow all other high trees. This is the Kingdom Israel has been waiting for. The same Israel God called a nation of priests and a holy nation in Exodus 19:6 and repeated to the church in 1 Peter 2:9. It’s related to the same set of Kingdom prophecies that Christ claimed was fulfilled in his reading of Isaiah 61 in Luke 4:16-21.

Regarding the church, dispensationalists flip the bird.

So what’s the big deal whether someone is optimistic vs. pessimistic? Well, it shows in our ecclesiology (how we do/view church). It shows in the surface level view of salvation as a post-mortem fire insurance. It shows in the church’s lack of desire to dialogue over scripture in the pursuit of unity. And it shows that instead of engaging the culture and recognizing our God-given vocations we’d rather be satisfied with the “earth-is-going-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket-so-why-bother” mentality ~ The “Bird” is the Word | Modern Pulpit
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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I learned a lot from Wikipedia...they have break downs of different theories. They are very basic descriptions with no scriptural backup for any of them. It was how I became familiar with the basic theories, like preterism.
Hope that helps.
 
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Radagast

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Would it be possible, for us newbies, to get a thread explaining these schools of thought and terminology?

Wikipedia is pretty hopeless, but has a good diagram.

1000px-Millennial_views.svg.png
 
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Radagast

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I know I'm not a dispensationalist, and I'm pretty sure that I'm an amillennialist. Basically, I believe the Church is the new Israel, that we're in the 1000 year period right now, and Christ is going to come back soon to judge the living and the dead.

That all sounds amillennialist.
 
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worshipjunkie

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Wikipedia is pretty hopeless, but has a good diagram.

1000px-Millennial_views.svg.png

That's perfect. I didn't even try checking Wikipedia because they misrepresent so many Christian things, but that kind of outline is exactly what I'm looking for. Nice and simple. :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Often partial preterist, never full preterist.
I would think some of the PP views are borderline FP, depending on how one views Matthew 24.

Some create a gap in Matthew 24 where the 1st part is 70ad and the rest is future.

1 one view holds that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On],
2 and another that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off].
ebedmelech said:
I've not heard of that site. I don't ascribe to full preterism and I really don't like the term "partial preterist", which I am because many just lump partial preterist with full preterist...and some not even knowing the difference.

There *seems* to be a failure to associate Matthew 24 with Matthew 25.
Matthew 24 deals with the judgment of Jerusalem, the temple, and the dispersion,
while Matthew 25 deals with the church after that.
 
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mkgal1

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Another visual that compares the differences has to do with Daniel 9:24-27 (mentioned by Jesus as quoted in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:15) is this one:

The preterist view has no gap and is a continual length of 70 "weeks":

8897-70-Week-Prophecy.jpg


.......but the futurist view has a gap - like a pause in time:

chart_Daniels70Weeks.jpg


....but, like Claninja posted a while back (hopefully this doesn't confuse things too much):

Claninja said:
If there is gap between the 69th and 70th week, then Jesus was crucified, not within the 70 weeks, but in a gap OUTSIDE of the 70 prophetic weeks. And if Christ was crucified in the gap, then "to put an end to sin" and "atone for wickedness" were accomplished in the gap and not during any of the 70 prophetic weeks.
If there is a gap, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement

....by looking at the graphic, do you see what he means (this belief places Christ's ministry and death on the cross in a "gap" of time - outside of the 70 weeks)?

This article also presents a simple comparison of the two: Bible Made Simple: Does the Bible Teach a 7 Year Tribulation Period?
 
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Preterism is the belief that all or essentially all of the events prophesied in the Bible had taken place by the end of the first century. As this includes a claim that the Lord returned in the first century, it is considered heretical on this site and is therefore banned from discussion here.

Partial Preterism changes the words "all or essentially all" to "most." They believe that the Lord will come in the future, but almost every other prophesied event had taken place by the end of the first century. Since Partial Preterism does not deny a future coming of the Lord, it is allowed here.

Historism is the belief that most of the events of Bible prophecy have taken place during the (now nearly 2000 year long) history of the church. They believe the Lord's return is future.

Idealism is the belief that most, if not all, the Bible is allegorical. That is, it does not actually mean what it says. And this, when applied to eschatology, means that they believe that none, or at least very few, of the prophecies in the Bible actually mean mean what the say.

Most of of the believers in these schools of thought are amillennial, that is, they do not believe there will literally be a "millennium," which is the name given to a thousand year period which the Bible said would take place.

All of these, of curse, have subdivisions, but not believing any of them, I have not studied these subdivisions and know very little about them.

Futurism is the belief that most of the events of Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future. They recognize that some of these events have already taken place. But they reject that notion for basically all claims about past fulfillments except those that the Bible explicitly tells us have been fulfilled.

Some futurists are also amillennial, but most of them are millennial. That is, they believe that the prophesied 1000 year period will be literally fulfilled after the Lord comes to judge the world.

Of those futurists who are millennial some are pre-millennial. This means that they believe that the Lord will take the church to heaven before the millennium. Others are post-millennial. This means that they believe that the Lord will take the church to heaven after the millennum. These two names are sometimes hyphenated, and sometimes given as separate words.

Of the futurists that are pre-millennial, there are various views about precisely when the Lord will take the church to heaven. This event is called "the rapture."

Essentially all pre-mllennial futurists believe that just before the millennium, there will be a future time of unparalleled trouble, which they call "the tribulation," which they believe will end when the Lord comes to judge the wicked and to set up "the millennium." And most of them believe this time of trouble will last seven years, with a defining moment at its half way point.

But among the pre-millennial futurists, there are various views about when "the rapture" will take place, in relation to "the tribulation."

Some pre-millennial futurists are also "pre-tribbers." That means that they believe "the rapture" will take place before "the tribulation." And most of these think it will take place immediately before the tribulation.

Other pre-millennial futurists are "mid-tribbers." his means that they believe "the rapture will take place at the middle of "the tribulation." And yet others are "pre-wrath." This means that they think that "the rapture" will take place near the end of "the tribulation," just before an time of particularly intense trouble, which the call "the wrath." Most of these think this time of wrath will be the last 75 days of "the tribulation."

Still other pre-millennial futurists are post tribbers. this means that they believe the rapture will take place after the end of "the tribulation."

There are also two schools of thought, beside idealism, which I have already mentioned, about the scriptures in general, which vastly influence views on eschatology.

One of these is Covenant Theology. This is the belief that God has had two covenants in place throughout the time of His working with mankind. Most of those who subscribe to this concept think that when a prophecy in the Bible says Israel, that means "the church." And when it says either "Jerusalem" or "the land," that means "heaven."

The other main school of thought is Dispensationalism. That is the belief that, from time to time, God changes the way He relates to mankind. They believe that these changes are not random, as it were trying "plan B" when "plan A did not work." Instead, they believe that these changes are all a part of an overall plan that God has had in place from the very beginning. And that plan is to demonstrate that mankind will fail under any conceivable situation. Most Dispensationalists think that this plan includes seven distinct periods, each of which they call a "Dispensation," and that we are currently in the sixth of these seven "Dispensations." But those who held this view in the ancient (ante-Nicene to early post-Nicene) church saw fewer distinct periods. This view results in a conclusion that "the church" and "Israel" are two entirely different groups, and have entirely different destinies. They believe that "the church" will be taken to heaven and blessed there for all eternity. And they believe that in "the millennium," "Israel" will be brought back to her ancient homeland and will there be brought to repentance and will afterwards be blessed forever "on this earth."

Due to the shortness of this post, this summary is highly over-simplified. But it is a general overview of the main schools of thought concerning eschatology, and the meanings of the names given to the various views.

Full disclosure: I am a pre-trib, pre-millennial, futurist who has published books on Bible prophecy and on the history of prophetic interpretation.
 
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mkgal1

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How can preterism be heretical and futurism not.
They are both Jesuit teachings.
Good question. I think there's confusion as to what "preterism" really is (for it to be considered heresy).
 
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