Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

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Getting drunk is a sin, but there is nowhere in scripture that says drinking wine is a sin.

Not true. Here are....

20 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

17) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

18) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

19) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

20) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

You said:
Its self righteousness and pride that makes you rant against alcohol not love.

Again, this is a false accusation. You are not God to know my heart and thoughts. I honestly do care about people drinking a substance that destroys their body and can cause them to impair their judgment and hurt themselves and others. You may not believe that, but it is what I believe.

You said:
You are preaching lies that also condemn God's bountiful provision to Israel, as written clearly in scripture.

What was given to Israel in the past may not apply to us under the New Covenant today (Unless of course you think we still have to offer animal sacrifices or something). We are not Israel. We are the church who are made up of both Israelites, and Gentiles. We have no nation or continuing city on this earth.

Anyways, as I said before, when the OT was in effect: The Israelites were given the provision to buy fermented wine and use it to ease pain, and purify water, etc. If they were to consume it for social reasons or with a meal, it would have been diluted with water so as to prevent intoxication and or in getting drunk. Priests were not even allowed to have wine. Today, we are all kings are priests in Christ Jesus.

You said:
Pride and self righteousness, not love.

Again, untrue. I honestly do care about people destroying themselves with alcohol. This can happen or begin with just one glass. Drunkenness happens at the start of one glass, and then another, etc.
 
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So you are now judging scripture by human laws? Great.

Most people would agree that excess alcohol is bad, but moderation of good wine and beer is delightful, as indeed God intended it to be.

We are to obey the Law of the land if it does not conflict with Scripture (See Romans 13). Usually laws even made by men have a reason behind them so as to protect us in many cases. Blood alcohol levels in different countries for driving a motor vehicle legally is there so as to protect innocent people who are driving normally. Imagine if you lived in a country where there was no laws preventing people to drink. Imagine a Friday night in a country like that. It could very well be you would just want to stay home because of all the accidents.
 
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What part of my previous posts do you not understand? As I have shown with real evidence is the wine that was served at the Cana wedding was real, fermented, alcohol content wine. The 1st century Jews had no means to have fresh grape juice from the previous years wine harvest 9 months earlier. And the wine that Jesus provided was better than the previous wine.

You provided no historical documents. You vaguely referred to some alleged historical evidence but did not quote them directly or identify them.

Try actually reading my posts. I clearly identified my sources. I quoted from 4 sources which show that Paul was not talking about mixing water with wine.

Paul said nothing about mixing water with wine. Your assumptions about Isaiah 1:22 are not valid or relevant.

Your assumption what verses supposedly allude to are wrong and irrelevant. Again you have not provided any historical evidence.
It seems like you are still not giving me a straight answer here.


Again, do you believe they were drunk at the wedding of Cana and Jesus made even more wine to make them more drunk? Yes, or no? Please answer before we continue on with the rest of what you said. Please be upfront with me and answer these simple questions.

Answer with a yes or a no.
 
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But it is your interpretation. Myself and the vast majority of Christians through the centuries have not read Scripture that way. Again, you are entitled to you interpretation.



The plain language of Scripture says otherwise.



But believing that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sinful is not in disagreement with what Scripture says. Jesus drank alcohol. That is clear from scripture.



But I have not avoided answering. As I have said, there is nothing in scripture condeming the moderate use of alcohol. Zero. Nicht. Nada.



No they drank wine, a beverage that includes alcohol. There was no way at that time to preserve unfermented grape juice.

No. It is not clear in Scripture that Jesus drank alcohol. That is totally false. Please provide the actual verses that say that.
 
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SPF

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No. It is not clear in Scripture that Jesus drank alcohol. That is totally false. Please provide the actual verses that say that.

In Luke 7:33–44, Jesus said, “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’” (emphasis added).

In verse 33 Jesus is making a contrast between John the Baptist’s “drinking no wine” and His own practice. Jesus goes on to say the religious leaders accused Him (falsely) of being a drunkard. Jesus was never a drunkard, any more than He was a glutton. He lived a completely sinless life (1 Peter 2:22); however, Luke 7 strongly suggests that Jesus did indeed partake of alcoholic wine. - GotQuestions.org
 
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Wine-Jewish Encyclopedia
Wine-drinking was generally accompanied by singing (Isa. xxiv. 9). A regular wine-room ("bet ha-yayin") was used (Cant. ii. 4), and wine-cellars ("oẓerot yayin"; I Chron. xxvii. 27) are mentioned. The wine was bottled in vessels termed "nebel" and "nod" (I Sam. i. 24, xvi. 20), made in various shapes from the skins of goats and sheep, and was sold in bath measures. The wine was drunk from a "mizraḳ," or "gabia'" (bowl; Jer. xxxv. 5), or a "kos" (cup). The wine-press was called "gat" and "purah"; while the "yeḳeb" was probably the vat into which the wine flowed from the press. The "vine of Sodom" (Deut. xxxii. 32), which probably grew by the Dead Sea, was the poorest kind. The "vine of the fields" (II Kings iv. 39) was a wild, uncultivated sort, and the "soreḳ" (Isa. v. 2) was the choicest vine, producing dark-colored grapes; in Arabic it is called "suriḳ."
There were different kinds of wine. "Yayin" was the ordinary matured, fermented wine, "tirosh" was a new wine, and "shekar" was an old, powerful wine ("strong drink"). The red wine was the better and stronger (Ps. lxxv. 9 [A. V. 8]; Prov. xxiii. 31). Perhaps the wine of Helbon (Ezek. xxvii. 18) and the wine of Lebanon (Hos. xiv. 7) were white wines. The vines of Hebron were noted for their large clustersof grapes (Num. xiii. 23). Samaria was the center of vineyards (Jer. xxxi. 5; Micah i. 6), and the Ephraimites were heavy wine-drinkers (Isa. xxviii. 1). There were also "yayin ha-reḳaḥ" (spiced wine; Cant. viii. 2), "ashishah" (hardened sirup of grapes), "shemarim (wine-dregs), and "ḥomeẓ yayin" (vinegar). Some wines were mixed with poisonous substances ("yayin tar'elah"; Ps. lx. 5; comp. lxxv.9, "mesek" [mixture]). The "wine of the condemned" ("yen 'anushim") is wine paid as a forfeit (Amos ii. 8), and "wine of violence" (Prov. iv. 17) is wine obtained by illegal means.
—In Rabbinical Literature:
Wine is called "yayin" because it brings lamentation and wailing ("yelalah" and "wai") into the world, and "tirosh" because one that drinks it habitually is certain to become poor (תירש=תהיארש). R. Kahana said the latter term is written sometimes תירוש, and sometimes תירש ; that means, if drunk in moderation it gives leadership (ראש = "head"); if drunk in excess it leads to poverty (Yoma 76b). "Tirosh" includes all kinds of sweet juices and must, and does not include fermented wine (Tosef., Ned. iv. 3). "Yayin" is to be distinguished from "shekar"; the former is diluted with water ("mazug"); the latter is undiluted ("yayin ḥai"; Num. R. x. 8; comp. Sifre, Num. 23). In Talmudic usage "shekar" means "mead," or "beer," and according to R. Papa, it denotes drinking to satiety and intoxication (Suk. 49b).
WINE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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In Luke 7:33–44, Jesus said, “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’” (emphasis added).

In verse 33 Jesus is making a contrast between John the Baptist’s “drinking no wine” and His own practice. Jesus goes on to say the religious leaders accused Him (falsely) of being a drunkard. Jesus was never a drunkard, any more than He was a glutton. He lived a completely sinless life (1 Peter 2:22); however, Luke 7 strongly suggests that Jesus did indeed partake of alcoholic wine. - GotQuestions.org

The point here is that these were false accusations because it is a lie that John had a demon just as much as it is a lie that Jesus drank intoxicating wine. Jesus could not drink wine because He was a King and wine is not for kings according to Scripture.

Fermented aspect of wine is also a type or picture of yeast. Yeast is representative of sin in the Bible. The wine represented Christ’s blood. Jesus’s blood is not sinful.

Anyways, in Luke 7:34, it merely says he came eating and drinking and he was accused of being a winebiber. It does not say what he drank intoxicating wine here. We know Christ drank of the fruit of the vine. "Fruit of the vine" is not a good description of ethanol. Ethanol is the by-product of the fruit of the vine that was is consumed mostly by the yeast. There is no "fruit of the vine" that is even barely left (that would offer no nutritional value).
 
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No. It is not clear in Scripture that Jesus drank alcohol. That is totally false. Please provide the actual verses that say that.
SPF beat me to it in post 185. You just want to ignore the plain meaning of the words.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Wine can be referred to in three different ways according to the Bible. So you are assuming something that I don't actually believe. You automatically assume that it is consumed as intoxicating wine just because the word "wine" is there. Dictionaries say that wine can be in reference to either unfermented fruit juice or fermented fruit juice. You are automatically concluding fermented wine when the text may not even say that in every case. Yes, in some cases in the Bible, it refers to intoxicating wine, but in other cases this is not always the case like with Isaiah 65:8.

Evangelical myth.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Also, the online KJV dictionary is taken from: Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (1828). So this is not an official divinely inspired religious dictionary.
Dictionaries say that wine can be in reference to either unfermented fruit juice or fermented fruit juice. .
Those had better be those "divinely inspired" dictionaries you were referring to
Surely, he had a bad experience with alcohol and he could be speaking out in truth against it to some degree and yet speaking untruth in defense of it, too. Sometimes people can speak the truth to a certain degree but from an uninformed position (without really studying it and by being objective).

He's never had a drink in his life.
 
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The point here is that these were false accusations because it is a lie that John had a demon just as much as it is a lie that Jesus did not drink intoxicating wine. Jesus could not drink wine because He was a King and wine is not for kings according to Scripture.

Fermented aspect of wine is also a type or picture of yeast. Yeast is representative of sin in the Bible. The wine represented Christ’s blood. Jesus’s blood is not sinful.

Anyways, in Luke 7:34, it merely says he came eating and drinking and he was accused of being a winebiber. It does not say what he drank here. We know Christ drank of the fruit of the vine. Ethanol is not a good description of ethanol. It is the by-product of the fruit of the vine that was is consumed mostly by the yeast.
Your response to this is just so terribly poor that it can only come from someone fighting to make Scripture fit a belief they hold. Nobody without an agenda would try and pass off what you just said as a credible interpretation. Jason, that was just really bad.

Jesus was contrasting what he did with what John did not. Jesus clearly acknowledges that he drinks. If he didn’t then the Pharisees wouldn’t have accused him of being a drunkard, they wouldn’t have.

Honestly, at this point you really need to do yourself a favor and stop engaging in theological discussion when you are totally incapable of being objective.
 
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This is what happens when you begin with an assumption that alcohol is evil and that any consumption of it is wrong. Then you have to ignore the plain meaning of scripture to prove your point, making claims that Jesus never drank alcohol, the the wine Jesus made at the wedding was non-alcoholic, that grape juice was used at the last supper. This also ignores over 1000 years of church history and the fact that the vast majority of Christians use wine for Holy Communion. Such views were not held until the rise of the temperance movement in the early 1800s.

Now, those who have such views are entitled to their opinion, but please don’t tell those of us who consume alcohol in moderation that doing so is wrong.
 
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To all:

No doubt Jesus drank, but it is the “fruit of the vine” (unfermented wine) or freshly squeezed grape juice that he drank of (See Matthew 26:29). Scripture does not say he drank strong drink or wine while it was red and it moved itself aright. Scripture does not say he drank of the wine that bites like a serpent.

Isaiah 65:8 clearly talks about how there is a “new wine” inside a cluster of grapes. Juice inside grapes does not start off alcoholic.

Also, yeast is a part of making fermented wine. Yeast represents sin. So the alcohol (ethanol) would be a by product of something sinful. This is not possible because the process of Christ’s blood was by holy means.

Yeast, wine, etc. are important symbols and pictures in the Bible. If these things are changed to favor one’s view of alcohol, it is a sad attempt to change the Bible because it does not align with our worldly pleasures or indulgences.

May God’s love shine upon you all.
 
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SPF

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Also, yeast is a part of making fermented wine. Yeast represents sin. So the alcohol (ethanol) would be a by product of something sinful. This is not possible because the process of Christ’s blood was by holy means.
I used yeast to make some homemade bread. Did I eat sinful bread?
 
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Francis Drake

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Not true. Here are....

20 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).
Not in the least bit relevant, they were in the wilderness where most things were unavailable. They had yet to reach the promised land whose massive grape harvest they were promised to inherit.
2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).
You took that out of context and completely ignored the preceding verses where God gave them such wonderful provision which included that very blood red wine.
Deut32v13He made him ride on the heights of the land and fed him with the fruit of the fields.
He nourished him with honey from the rock, and with oil from the flinty crag,
14with curds and milk from herd and flock and with fattened lambs and goats,
with choice rams of Bashan and the finest kernels of wheat.
You drank the foaming blood of the grape.

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.
Again, taken out of context. She was praying before the Lord when Eli made that empty false accusation.
Thus it proves absolutely zilch in support of your falsehood!
4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.
Your theology is crass, constantly taking verses out of context to bend them to your toxic agenda.
17They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.
Not only is alcoholic drink called the wine of violence, but bread is called wickedness.
Do we also have your support to ban bread!
5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.
Followed by-
whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
Thus the answer is not to be led astray by them, but as a mature Christian
be moderate
and not fearful.
Obviously, your character is weak and febrile, so teetotalism is your only answer.
For the remainder, we shall enjoy the provision of the Lord.
6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.
Yet more out of context scripture to support your doctrine of demons. The writer is merely addressing excess in both food and drink.-
19Listen, my son, and be wise, and set your heart on the right path:
20Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat,

Do we have your support for banning food as well as alcohol?
21for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.
And there's the reason why!
7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
Of course it does, like any excess consumption.
8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).
Again, we all know this. But it still doesn't support your self righteous legalism.
9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
Yet following that, the woman of virtue buys a field and plants a vineyard.
16She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)
We don't need scripture to tell us that getting drunk satisfies anything!
Joel3v23Be glad, O children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God, for He has given you the autumn rains for your vindication. He sends you showers, both autumn and spring rains, as before. 24The threshing floors will be full of grain, and the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.
A good wine crop is obviously a great blessing from the Lord.

I can't be bothered to look at the rest, given that you habitually take scriptures out of context and twist them to a false agenda.

You are living under the curse of the law, and want to put that yoke on the neck of others.
Well, we are not deceived by your nonsense.
 
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Francis Drake

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We are to obey the Law of the land if it does not conflict with Scripture (See Romans 13). Usually laws even made by men have a reason behind them so as to protect us in many cases. Blood alcohol levels in different countries for driving a motor vehicle legally is there so as to protect innocent people who are driving normally. Imagine if you lived in a country where there was no laws preventing people to drink. Imagine a Friday night in a country like that. It could very well be you would just want to stay home because of all the accidents.
More silly waffle.
Nobody is suggesting we should drink and drive.
I was merely pointing out the stupidity of using a man made law as proof that God says drinking alcohol is sinful.

You really are clutching at straws. But if you are so weak, fearful as a Christian, and unable to maintain moderation, then don't drink.
But you have no right to project your fearfulness on other believers.
 
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I used yeast to make some homemade bread. Did I eat sinful bread?

There is a man I work in whom I ran into who constantly tries to mock the Bible and Jesus every chance he gets with us Christians at work. Just last week, he asked one of the Christians I was working with (who was a good distance away from me but he was within eye sight) the following question: "If the Bible says for you to be as wise as serpents, then why does the Bible refer to the devil as a serpent?"

While you are not like this person (because you obviously declare you are a Christian who believes in Jesus and the Bible), unfortunately, the question you asked is a similar one. The answer is that in the creation, God created all things and He declared it to be "very good." (Genesis 1:31). So obviously snakes and bread are not evil in and of themselves. They serve a purpose and function according to His good creation. Metaphors paint a picture. They are a like comparison of something God is trying to describe to us. The serpent in the garden was subtle, and no doubt the enemy (the devil) possessed this serpent and spoke through it, to reflect the enemy's own subtle nature. Leavened bread (i.e. bread with yeast in it) is a type of sin because the bread "puffs up." The puffing up is a symbol or picture of sin. It is not that the bread itself is sinful, but it is a picture of sin. God commanded the Israelites to put away all leaven (yeast) out of their houses. The leaven (yeast) did not put itself away. The Israelites had to take action to put away the leaven out of their homes for Passover. This was their putting away sin out of their lives and accepting the Passover sacrifice (Who is Jesus Christ).

The water in the jars was the OT saint's ceremonial washing jars. Jesus changed the Old ways of cleansing by changing the water (old cleansing) into wine (Which was representative of His cleansing blood). This wine had to be 100% absolutely pure and the process by which was created had to be holy and pure. Jesus's blood is holy and pure and His blood came by holy means. To say that the wine was fermented at one point by the process of the yeast (leaven) eating the fruit of the vine and pooping out ethanol changes the picture or metaphorical message that Christ's blood represents (Which is Christ's blood is holy, pure, and undefiled). Yeast makes the wine to bubble or ferment. Yeast puffs up bread. These are pictures and symbols of sin (While the actual physical elements are not sinful themselves). They are metaphors. Figures of speech. Today we use slang in our every day language. They are figures of speech. A person may say that is "cool" but that does not mean that such a thing is cold in any way. It is a figure of speech.

May God bless you this fine day (even if you disagree).
 
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I see no sense in pursuing this discussion any further. As I said, this is what we get when people start with the belief that consumption of any alcohol is evil and bend scripture to support that view.

Jesus drank alcohol. Not only does scripture say that he did, but we know that wine was the common drink in that part of the world at that time. There was no way to preserve unfermented grape juice long term; it was made into wine.

Jason, there is nothing wrong with choosing not to consume alcohol. It is wrong to tell that who responsibly consume alcohol that they are somehow violating God's word by doing so.

The forecast here is for snow over the weekend, so I will probably be staying inside watching football. I have a bottle of a very good IPA in the refrigerator that I will be enjoying during one of the games. Cheers to those who will likewise be responsibly enjoying an alcoholic beverage this weekend!
 
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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Jason0047 said:
Deuteronomy 29:5-6
Not in the least bit relevant, they were in the wilderness where most things were unavailable. They had yet to reach the promised land whose massive grape harvest they were promised to inherit.

No, the text says that the Israelites did not drink wine or strong drink so that they might KNOW that He is the Lord their God.

5 "And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God." (Deuteronomy 29:5-6).

Jason0047 said:
Deuteronomy 32:14, and Deuteronomy 32:33
You said:
You took that out of context and completely ignored the preceding verses where God gave them such wonderful provision which included that very blood red wine.
Deut32v13He made him ride on the heights of the land and fed him with the fruit of the fields.
He nourished him with honey from the rock, and with oil from the flinty crag,
14with curds and milk from herd and flock and with fattened lambs and goats,
with choice rams of Bashan and the finest kernels of wheat.
You drank the foaming blood of the grape.

While Modern Translations can be useful and helpful at times, they also have corrupted scores of verses in Scripture, as well. No doubt you are quoting a translation that fits your bias towards alcohol. The NIV and ESV have foaming blood of the grape. The KJV has "pure blood of the grape." This fits the context better because otherwise you would have a contradiction in Scripture between verses 14 and 32 (With no distinguishable difference between the enemy's wine and the Israelite's wine).

Deuteronomy 32:14
"Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."

We symbolically drink of Christ's blood by our believing that His shed blood cleanses us of sin (See Romans 3:25).

When Jesus's blood washes away our sin, we are not intoxicated like with wine or drunken, but we are sober minded and watchful in looking for His return for His bride.

"Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." (Deuteronomy 32:33).

This is the enemy's wine. Here we see a description of the Gentile's wine and there is nothing new under the sun. Today, the Gentiles still drink of the wine that is poison. Most wines today are solely a drug with no nutritional value and it is ethanol colored from the grapes and with a hint of the grape's residual flavor. It is no longer a nutritional and healthy juice when freshly squeezed from a cluster of grapes. But it is a poison whereby your body's immune system has to fight against it in order to compensate for it's attack.

This is the cruel venom of asps as the verse says. In fact, this relates to the popular verse in Proverbs that says:

"At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." (Proverbs 23:32).​

How fitting of the enemy's wine. For this wine today destroys countless lives.

Jason0047 said:
You said:
Again, taken out of context. She was praying before the Lord when Eli made that empty false accusation.
Thus it proves absolutely zilch in support of your falsehood!

Your missing the point. If there was nothing wrong with her being drunk with wine or tipsy with wine, then she would not be accused of any wrong doing with wine. Instead, she was accused that she was drunken and she was told to put away her wine.

14 "And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD. " (1 Samuel 1:14-15).​

Why was she told to put away wine if there is nothing wrong with wine?

Jason0047 said:
You said:
Your theology is crass, constantly taking verses out of context to bend them to your toxic agenda.
17They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.
Not only is alcoholic drink called the wine of violence, but bread is called wickedness.
Do we also have your support to ban bread!

While there is a metaphor here, it is also speaking against the very elements that they use, as well (Which are pictures of symbols or metaphors themselves).

They are eating the bread of wickedness (living sinfully) and the bread of wickedness they consume more than likely was puffed up leavened bread (that had yeast in it). For unleavened bread is more of a Jewish thing and not a Gentile thing. For even in our Gentile world today, we love our puffed up bread. Granted, the bread is not sinful in and of itself, but it is a picture or symbol of sin (metaphorically speaking). It's a figure of speech. These Gentiles also drink of the wine of violence, too. Obviously they were violent, but the Gentiles have always been known for getting drunk with fermented wine and in getting to brawls or fights (as a result of their drinking). Hence, it is the wine of violence (unlike the fresh juice or unfermented wine that comes from grapes when they are freshly squeezed for the first time).

Jason0047 said:
Proverbs 20:1
You said:
Followed by-
whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
Thus the answer is not to be led astray by them, but as a mature Christian
be moderate
and not fearful.
Obviously, your character is weak and febrile, so teetotalism is your only answer.
For the remainder, we shall enjoy the provision of the Lord.

Again, you quote a faulty translation to steer clear of the problem of alcohol. Proverbs 20:1 says in the KJV,

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1).

It's talking about a wine and not a people here.

Wine is a mocker.
Strong drink is raging.
Whoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Surely doesn't sound good to partake of this kind of wine or strong drink. Why? Because again, we see people destroy their lives with alcohol time and time again.

In Britain, in the year 2016: 9,040 deaths were of the result of drunk driving.

There were 11,000 approximate deaths here in the US in 2016 due to drunk driving.

Jason0047 said:
You said:
Yet more out of context scripture to support your doctrine of demons. The writer is merely addressing excess in both food and drink.-
19Listen, my son, and be wise, and set your heart on the right path:
20Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat,

Do we have your support for banning food as well as alcohol?
21for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.
And there's the reason why!

Again, quoting the context does not help you. It tells in Proverbs 23:31 not to look at this kind of wine. You obviously look at the kind of wine you make unless you wear a blind fold or something while you make it.

Also, the translation you quote is in favor of your particular defense on alcohol. The trusty KJV that existed for hundreds of years before the Modern Translations showed up says,

19 "Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags." (Proverbs 23:19-21).

It says, "Be not among winebibbers."
These were those who partook of the wrong kind of wine and had gotten drunk. It's why we are told to not look at this kind of wine. Yet, in your view, not looking at your own fermented wine does not make any sense.

Jason0047 said:
You said:
Yet following that, the woman of virtue buys a field and plants a vineyard.
16She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

Again, nothing wrong with freshly squeezed grape juice or diluted fermented wine where it's intoxicating effects have been neutered significantly. Fermented wine also served as a means to purify water and to ease pain. But that still does not change the truth in Proverbs 31:4-5. It says,

4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." (Proverbs 31:4-5).

Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:14-15) (Revelation 19:11-16).

In fact, we are kings and priests (according to Scripture).

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:6).

Proverbs 31:4 says wine is not for kings. Do you believe Jesus has made you a king and a priest unto God according to Revelation 1:6?

Do you believe Proverbs 31:4 that wine is not for kings? This should be the only verse you need to put away alcoholic intoxicating wine out of your life for good.

Jason0047 said:
You said:
We don't need scripture to tell us that getting drunk satisfies anything!
Joel3v23Be glad, O children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God, for He has given you the autumn rains for your vindication. He sends you showers, both autumn and spring rains, as before. 24The threshing floors will be full of grain, and the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.
A good wine crop is obviously a great blessing from the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 2:3 says,
"I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine,..."

Ecclesiastes 12:8 says,
"Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity."

So the wine did not satisfy. It was vanity.

Yet, you are misdirecting away from this point or fact and saying that a vineyard is a blessing. While I am sure a vineyard can be a blessing if one uses it for the right reasons and they do not use it for the wrong reasons. If their vineyard sells intoxicating wine that leads others to drive drunk and to die, I would say that it is not a vineyard of blessing but a vineyard that serves a wrong and dark purpose in not loving your fellow neighbor.

You said:
I can't be bothered to look at the rest, given that you habitually take scriptures out of context and twist them to a false agenda.

I of course disagree; But may God's goodness be upon you anyways.

You said:
You are living under the curse of the law, and want to put that yoke on the neck of others.

When Paul talks about the curse of the Law in Galatians 3:13, he is referring to the Pharisee's false religion of trying to be justified by "Law Alone" (without God's saving grace in Jesus Christ by faith) according to the Torah (i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel by the hand of Moses). Please read the context (See verses 12, and 14). It talks about faith. I obviously believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by faith in Jesus Christ. But works of faith are a part of our faith. They are next step of phase of our faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by "Works Alone" without God's saving grace through faith. Paul is not negating the necessity of works of faith that follows God's saving grace (See Ephesians 2:10). For even Paul says, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

You said:
Well, we are not deceived by your nonsense.

It is written,
Wisdom is justified of all her children.

May God bless you (even if we disagree).
 
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