Eternal Punishment and God's Mercy

*Light* · Jan 17, 2019

Hello Family of God,

I will be discussing the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment ; the Doctrine of Eternal Life, and other related issues which are of vital importance in relation to the main topics of discussion. I will divide this thread into several sections due to the amount of information that can be given in one post.

"And the [SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE] say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17)

The one who HEARS, THIRSTS, and DESIRES Eternal Life is given the offer and to take HOLD of it. And it is offered FREELY to those who will receive it by Grace through Faith. The Spirit here refers to The Holy Spirit; which indwells all Genuine Believers. The Spirit is not giving us an "invitation" to receive the Free Gift of Eternal Life; but rather He (i.e., "The Holy Spirit") is saying, Maranatha! Every True Christian on this planet knows that there is an "urgency" to watch and keep occupied until the Lord Returns for His Bride. And every Genuine Christian is prodded by The Holy Spirit (who lives in all Christians) that the Return of Christ is VERY NEAR; and to remain Faithful until this marvelous event occurs.

If you are uncertain about whether you are TRULY Saved or NOT, then please take the time to read this thread; so please bear with me with patience and diligence regarding this most important matter -- as SOULS are at stake here. The reason why the main discussion of this thread is Eternal Punishment is so that the one "professing" to be IN Christ can KNOW with absolute certainty whether he/she is saved or not; somewhat of a spiritual inventory to determine one's current status on whether he/she is grafted into God's Eternal Family . . . or NOT. I am not here to condemn anyone; I am here to give assurance to those who waver about their spiritual condition. The first thing anyone should do is to make peace with God; and failure to do so immediately may result in the soul of the person being condemned into Everlasting Punishment.

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." (Proverbs 27:6)

It appears that in this modern church age that MOST Pastors are reluctant to discuss the topic of Hell. Perhaps they fear that their congregation will dwindle in numbers; and they won't be able to cash in from the tithes and offerings by fleecing their flock. As stated above: I will be discussing the doctrine of Eternal Punishment; because this is a very crucial matter -- especially when most "nominal" Christians today only attend church to have their ears tickled; and they could care less about the fate of their eternal souls in this time of the end of the end. I will be going against the grain regarding the nonsense that is being "taught" in the apostate Church visible these days, and what ought to be taught in these final days before the Coming of the Lord (e.g., Hell and Eternal Punishment).

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for WIDE is the GATE, and BROAD is the WAY, that [leadeth] to DESTRUCTION, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because STRAIT is the GATE, and NARROW is the WAY, which [leadeth] unto LIFE, and FEW there be that find it." (Matt. 7:13-14)

Christians are to be IN the world, but not OF it (as "salt" and "light"). Unfortunately there are many false converts who still cling on to the world system. Almost every major city in the U.S has a street named BROADWAY. And these streets are where the lost "find" the MOST theaters, recreational activities, bars, nightclubs; in which carnality and depravity is prevalent. Now the adversary is sowing many tares among the wheat in order to mislead those who seek and desire to walk the straight and narrow path which leads to Life Eternal. There is a serious war happening now as we speak; and this war has been going on since the creation of Man. Satan wants to drag everyone to Hell and [the Lake of Fire] with him because he himself knows that the Eternal Lake of Fire will one day be his permanent abode.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him. For all that is in the world, [the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life], is NOT of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17)

There are loyal servants of the Devil who are dispatched to hinder Christians who are making an impact for the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. Satan's loyal servants attempted to stop me from delivering this Message to where these hindrances were CLEARLY supernatural -- and some through human agency (e.g., "warlocks, witches, occultists, sorcerers, satanists, counterfeit Christians, demons, the realm of principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places"). Exposing the wicked schemes of the devil will in no doubt cause him and his fallen minions to go at you in full force, and to have at it with you. But understand this: God is on the THRONE and it is He who is ABSOLUTELY SOVEREIGN and in CONTROL. By the way, "flesh and blood" (Eph. 6:12) does not always refer to "non-corporeal" beings in general; it is also to be understood that these evil entities are NOT "human or mortal" (i.e., "flesh and blood"). These wicked entities are not judged by God until the their time; unlike human beings, who are judged immediately upon physical separation of the spirit from the body (cf. Matt. 8:29; Lk. 16:19-31; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21; Heb. 9:27; Rev. 14:13).

"For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." (2 Corinthians 2:9-11)

Before I get to the main topic of this thread; I want to say from the outset why there are so many Christians who "doubt" their Salvation. Eternal Life is truly a free gift from God; but oftentimes misunderstood by many Christians. The Doctrine of Eternal Life by Grace through Faith is to be understood in light of the entirety of the Word of God. If you are in the least concerned, but concerned nonetheless about your Salvation; then here are several reasons as to why you may struggle with doubt.

Your pattern of lifestyle consists of habitual sinning; or sinning without feeling any guilt -- and/or you are feeling no desire to repent at all.
You haven't read your ENTIRE Bible from front to back; and this can lead to a misunderstanding of not only the nature of God, but the Message of Salvation found even in the Old Testament, the Intertestamental period, and culminating in the New Testament; where the Grace of God reaches its pinnacle.
You think that you KNOW God, but again . . . you haven't read the Entirety of Scripture. This is very CRUCIAL to ones Salvation and absolute security in God because God can be KNOWN by and through His Words in Holy Scriptures. Sadly, a lot of pastors, evangelists, and preachers alike will tell you that you ONLY need to read the Book of John to know that you are saved. Although this is definitely possible; it would be wise to read and study the entirety of Scripture if one desires to KNOW God in a much deeper fulfillment of who He Truly is.
You have turned the Grace of God into a license for immorality (Rom. 6:1-2; Jude 1:4)
You are NOT saved at all; or were never saved to begin with.
You are attempting to attain Salvation through works, or by living up to a certain "standard" of righteousness.
You believe that God isn't answering your prayers for whatever reason this may be.
You don't feel the "presence" of God in your life.
You have no sense of direction in your Spiritual Walk.
You feel as if God has "abandoned" you.
Nothing seems to go "right" in your life, and you are confused as to why these events are occurring -- and you are trying to "reason" with your own understanding how they are somehow connected to God's Divine purpose for you; but can't seem to get an answer.
Your pride or self-worth has placed a wall between you and God. You are not submitting yourself to the Sovereignty of God Almighty and are expecting things to go YOUR WAY.
You have hidden and unconfessed sins or are unwilling to forgive those who have "wronged" you in any way. This will "grieve" the Holy Spirit and will result in a feeling of Him "distancing" Himself from you.
You have no prayer life at all in your daily spiritual walk with God.
Other reasons that only you and God are aware of.

Continued on next post . . .

*Light* · Jan 17, 2019

Many are those who accuse and slander the God of All Creation as a result of misunderstanding His Divine attributes and nature. It doesn't matter if someone has an issue with God because their loved ones died in an earthquake or a fire; it is NOT God who is at fault. Many are those who have no problem with the Doctrine of Eternal Life, and yet blaspheme God because they have a personal issue with the Doctrine Eternal Punishment. These accusations are not from someone who has a broken and contrite spirit about their sins before a Just and Holy God. God cannot look upon iniquity, and sin is VERY SERIOUS to God in such that a single sin warrants Eternal Punishment. However, God is also SO LOVING that He gave His ONLY SON to the world in order that the unjust may be reconciled to Him. Jesus had to suffer a horrific punishment beyond what a finite being could ever comprehend. God the Father had to look away from His One and ONLY Son as the Wrath of God was poured out upon Him as Jesus Christ bore the penalty for the sins of those who would call upon Him for Salvation (cf. Rom. 11:22).

I want to make this VERY CLEAR that I am NOT a Calvinist. I am making this crystal clear so that those who read this will not place a label on me. Almost ALL non-Calvinist's will accuse the God depicted in Calvinist theology as a MONSTER. Why? Because of the Calvinistic theology regarding the vessels created for either Wrath or Mercy. The Bible clearly says that the road to Eternal Life is NARROW, and only a FEW find it. God does not lose against Satan if there will be more people who will end up in Hell rather than Heaven; God is *GLORIFIED* either way. Those who end up in Hell and the Lake of Fire are His enemies, and they want absolutely NOTHING to do with God. They are the ones who are defeated -- NOT GOD.

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of THE SAME LUMP to make one vessel unto HONOUR, and another unto DISHONOUR? (a rhetorical question, because the answer is YES) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of WRATH fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of MERCY, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:18-24)

Non-Calvinist's will accuse Calvinist's who teach that God intentionally created those who are to be "doomed from the womb". Once again . . . I am NOT a Calvinist; but I would like to ask professing believers a few questions which should prick the hearts of any True believer who TRULY understands how serious sin is before God. This will determine the condition of your heart; and whether or not you truly DO understand that you are all wretched sinners saved through the precious Blood of the Lamb; and it is ONLY by the *imputed* righteousness are you able to even approach an Absolute Holy and Just God. These questions are:

Who deserves to go to Heaven?
Who deserves to go the Hell and the Lake of Fire?

If your answer is NOBODY to the first question, and EVERYBODY to the second question -- then you have answered correctly!

So if God decides to save SOME people and condemn OTHERS from birth, how then is He a MONSTER if EVERYBODY [deserves] to go to Hell and the Lake of Fire?

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" (Romans 9:20)

"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Psalm 115:3)

ALL Human beings are born in SIN, and thus ALL are deserving of God's Wrath because of their injustice towards Him. There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE! How then is God a MONSTER if He were to choose to condemn SOME (or MANY) rather than ALL from the time of their conception? Only those who do not see their wretchedness as the filthy people that they are in God's sight; and those who are full of PRIDE and self-WORTH. If you have never came before the LORD in contrition and humility, and knowing full well that you are deserving of God's Justice and Wrath . . . then I would question whether you are even saved at all; and the chances are that you are NOT -- and DO NOT understand what it means to be POOR AND BROKEN IN SPIRIT. It is God Himself who has formed every human being alive in existence -- even before their conception.

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6)

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18)

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind FROM HIS BIRTH. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: [but that the works of God should be MADE MANIFEST in him.]" (John 9:1-3)

"And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? HAVE NOT I THE LORD?" (Exodus 4:10-11)

"For my thoughts are NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Continued on next post . . .

*Light* · Jan 17, 2019

How can the most Loving and Merciful God send a finite being to face the torments of Eternal Punishment? The Bible declares that God's MERCY endures FOREVER. Psalm 136 is most notable when it speaks of God's enduring Mercy; and the Psalmist proclaims that God's Mercy Endures FOR EVER. There are 26 verses in that Psalm; and each verse proclaims that God's Mercy endures FOR EVER (26 times in 26 verses). How is this possible if the Bible CLEARLY teaches that Eternal Punishment is indeed Eternal? What if those who are in Hell and the Lake of Fire plead with God for forgiveness and mercy? Will not God answer them? I will first begin by showing from Scripture that the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment is indeed ETERNAL.

The Eternal Lake of Fire has degrees of punishment; and it is apparent that The Devil, The Beast, and The False Prophet are placed in a locale specifically prepared for such wicked beings designed for them in particular, as they "shall be TORMENTED" (Grk. "basanizō" βασανίζω; i.e., "tortured") "for ever and ever" (Grk. "eis tous aionas ton aionon" εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων; literally, "into the age of the ages" or "forevermore"; or "forever and ever").

The usage of this phrase is clearly shown to be interpreted as a duration of time, which is ETERNAL (cf. Gal. 1:5; Phil. 4:20; 1 Tim. 1:7; 2 Tim. 4:8; Heb. 13:21; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 1:6,18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5). What is also horrific is that those who refuse to repent of their sins and turn to Christ alone for Salvation will be thrown into the same Eternal Lake of Fire at the end of History (Matt. 18:8; 25:41, 46; Mk. 9:47-48; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; Rev. 20:13-15; 21:8).

There is a heretical doctrine known as Universalism. This false doctrine teaches that every single human being will eventually be saved, and there is no such thing as Eternal Punishment according to Scripture. Proponents of Universalism will usually cite Philippians 2:10-11 in order to prove their heretical doctrine that every human being will eventually come to Salvation. This doctrine is straight from the deepest recesses and pits of the Abyss and Hell.

"That if [thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus], and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10)

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that [every tongue should CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord], to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11)

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, [every tongue shall SWEAR]." (Isaiah 45:23)

The word "confess" found in Romans 10:9 does NOT have the same meaning as it is found in Philippians 2:11. Context is KING, and we must examine the word when it is used in its proper context. They are close in meaning and in form, but the verb here is in the middle voice, and it has an additional prefix ("ex"). In Isaiah 45:23 (Hebrew Masoretic texts), the verb *swear* "shaba" means "to swear by an oath" -- and it is in the niphal stem; which is never found in a religious context regarding any form of ("worship"). The King James version rightly interprets it correctly (e.g.,"every tongue shall [swear]" -- i.e., "confession by an oath"). Although Philippians 2:11 says that "every tongue should confess"; it is NOT to be understood as "worship in a [religious] context", let alone a "confession of faith"; in which it has any salvific significance. EVERYONE will eventually come to the knowledge and recognition that the Veracity of the Scriptures is undeniably the TRUTH (i.e., "Jesus Christ is LORD, to the Glory of God the Father"); and sadly, at that point, it will be undeniable -- but by then it will be too late.

We need to understand just who it is that we have sinned against. We are not sent to the county jail for stepping on an ant, or get the death penalty for killing a cat or dog. But we will most assuredly, AT LEAST, receive prison time for murdering a human being. The greater the one whom we commit an unlawful act against; the greater the punishment will be. God is Supreme, and He is the MOST HOLY and RIGHTEOUS being of ALL; so to sin against Him warrants Eternal Punishment. This is how serious SIN is to the Thrice Holy God. There will come a point in time where EVERYONE will stand before God; and even they (i.e., "unbelievers") will admit to themselves, and before God, that they deserve the punishment that is due to them (Matt. 13:36; Mk. 4:22; Rom. 14:11-12; Phil. 2:10-11; Rev. 20:11-15).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

The Word of God declares that God is True and Righteous in His judgments against those who refuse to repent of their sins and wicked deeds (Rev. 16:7; 19:2).

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, NEITHER IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME." (Matthew 12:32)

Jesus said to the religious Hypocrites that:

"Ye are of YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and the LUSTS of your father YE WILL DO. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44-45)

The Jews understood that if one is the "son" or offspring of their "Father"; then they are of the same NATURE as their Father. We find that even after 1,000 years in the bottomless pit, Satan is even more ANGRIER and DECEIVING than ever (Rev. 20:7). Hell and the Lake of Fire is NOT REMEDIAL, nor can it ever be. There is the winning side: God and His children. And then there is the losing side: Satan and his children. If Satan is their Father, then there is NO CHANCE IN HELL that sinful and wicked men and women will ever REPENT of their deeds -- or ask for FORGIVENESS -- because they have the same NATURE as their Father, the Devil (cf. Jn. 8:44-45). Like Father, like Son!

God's Wrath is not only found in Hell and the Lake of Fire; it is also spoken of in an Eschatological Wrath (cf. Rev. 9:20; 16:9).

"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet REPENTED NOT of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:" (Revelation 9:20)

"And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they REPENTED NOT to give him glory."(Revelation 16:9)

In BOTH places: Hell and the Lake of Fire, and the Wrath of God poured out without mixture during the Tribulation; there is NO REMEDIAL effect as those who are AGAINST God REPENTED NOT. These wicked men and women will NOT REPENT in Hell and the Lake of Fire, and they will NOT REPENT during the Tribulation where the Wrath of God is also doled out. We also find in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that the rich man did NOT REPENT of his wicked deeds. He even had the audacity to ask that Lazarus would dip his finger in some water so he may cool off his tongue from the torment of the heat. As we see below: nothing can ever change the mind of the one who REFUSES TO REPENT -- even if someone were to RISE FROM THE DEAD.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:23-31)

One might ask why it is only the beggar who is given a name (Lazarus) while the rich man was not. Hell is the complete opposite of Heaven; therefore, there is NO fellowship . . . and if there is no fellowship -- then there is no need for those in Hell and the Lake of Fire to be given names. Nobody will care! There is no restraint from evil, and no one will care for any other person in Hell or the Lake of Fire. No one in Hell is going to say to another person in Hell, "Hi, my name is Scott . . . what's your name?" In Heaven, believers will be given NEW names (cf. Rev. 2:17).

"He that is [unjust], let him be UNJUST STILL: and he which is [filthy], let him be FILTHY STILL: and he that is [righteous], let him be RIGHTEOUS STILL: and he that is [holy], let him be HOLY STILL." (Revelation 22:11)

There comes a time when God will give sinners over to their reprobate mind; and their [final condition] will result in the their hearts becoming crystalized and hardened (Rom. 1:28; 2 Cor. 13:6; 2 Tim. 3:8; Tit. 1:16; Heb. 6:8).

"For it is impossible for those who were once [enlightened], and have [tasted] of the heavenly gift, and were made [partakers] of the Holy Ghost, And have [tasted] the good word of God, and [the powers of the world to come], If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

An almost PERFECT example and parallel of that passage can be found during Jesus' ministry while on Earth when He confronted the religious hypocrites of His day. Jesus said that the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost can NEVER BE FORGIVEN. Why? The miracles and good works of Jesus was one of the CLEAREST proof that they could have only be accomplished if He was God in the flesh, and the Christ. And that the WORKS and MIRACLES He had done were CLEARLY evident that He was the Son of God. What do I mean? The Pharisees:

HEARD the message of the Gospel from God Himself. (TASTED THE GOOD WORD)
EXPERIENCED and SAW the countless miracles that Jesus had performed. (TASTED THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME)
Had FOLLOWED Jesus around for years during His earthly ministry as He taught in the synagogues. (PARTAKERS)
WRONGFULLY accused Him (Jesus) of working under the influence of Satan.
REJECTED Jesus and His message after having heard the FULL REVELATION of the TRUTH. (FALL AWAY/ENLIGHTENED)

If one were to REJECT the way of Salvation after having experienced ALL OF THE ABOVE; then there is NO CHANCE that they will ever repent, or come to the knowledge of the Truth to be saved. Hebrews 10:26 says that there remains NO MORE SACRIFICE for SINS if we REJECT all of the above; because the FULL REVELATION of the TRUTH has been given. Such a one would NEVER turn their life over to Christ if that were to be the case (cf. Lk.16:31).

To Renew them AGAIN [unto] repentance: Justification has ALWAYS been by putting our TRUST in God ALONE for Salvation (Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; 11:6; Gal. 2:16,21; Phil. 3:9; Jas. 2:23). Some of the brethren (ethnic Jews) had "fallen away" from Grace (cf. Gal. 5:4) which was also taught throughout the Old Testament, and Abraham being an example for them. However, they were given the admonition that if they were to attempt to attain righteousness through the law AFTER having received the FULL REVELATION (see above); to renew them again "[UNTO] repentance" (i.e., renewing them to the true way of righteousness by Grace through Faith; which will RESULT in REPENTANCE) would be IMPOSSIBLE; since no more revelation of the truth can be given. Not that they were once saved or repentant; but to "renew" them (to revert them back to the knowledge and Truth of how one is Justified before God written in Holy Scripture -- and from the writer of Hebrews) UNTO the Grace of God and Salvation originally taught to them after having departed (fallen away) from its Truth; and by attempting to be "justified" or to have a "righteous standing" with God through the [works] of the law. Again, not that they were once repentant, but rather to bring them to the "state of repentance" (UNTO Justification and Salvation) after departing from the doctrines of Grace revealed to them in its ENTIRETY.

There is the resurrection unto LIFE; and then there is the resurrection unto the SECOND DEATH. Those who have washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb will be given a SPIRITUAL BODY at the RESURRECTION unto LIFE. This is NOT some non-corporeal "body" which cannot be felt or touched; it is a body *suited* PERFECTLY for Worship, Fellowship, Service, Glorifying God, Praising God, and MUCH MORE. And this Resurrection Body unto Life CANNOT SIN (cf. Lk. 20:36; Phil. 3:10, 20-21; 1 Cor. 2 Cor. 5:1-5; 15:42-44, 51-53; Col. 3:4; 1 Jn. 3:2). Now the resurrected body unto DAMNATION is just the opposite; it is fitted or *suited* for Spiritual Ruin, and there are no restraints with regards to EVIL and SIN. This body will be completely DEVOID of LOVE; and these condemned men and women will weep and gnash their teeth. Gnashing one's teeth is a sign of CONTEMPT as we see and example of this when Steven the Martyr was stoned:

"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they GNASHED ON HIM WITH THEIR TEETH." (Acts 7:54)

It is God who searches the deepest parts of the hearts of every man and woman. And it is God who knows when every man and woman has gotten beyond the point of the need to repent. It is His desire that none should perish; for He is long-suffering and patient towards us all, and extends His mercy to all who will call upon Him for Salvation.

"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:15)

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption [i.e., a body SUITED for spiritual ruin]; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting [i.e., a body SUITED for Eternal Life; or a "quality" of LIFE designed for Worship, Honor, Glory, and Praise]." (Galatians 6:8)

Those who will spend Eternity in Hell and the Lake of Fire will have a body DESIGNED for spiritual ruin; because they have SOWED TO THE FLESH and will REAP everlasting destruction and ruin. As the Glorified Body given to the resurrected Saints will be DESIGNED for PERFECT Worship, Praise, Honor, and Glory towards God and of the Lamb; the Body of Corruption will be DESIGNED to do nothing but sin and wickedness WITHOUT restraint. Moreover, the Holy Spirit (although Omnipresent) and His restraining power over evil and wickedness will be AWAY and FROM those who will spend ETERNITY in Hell and the Lake of Fire; therefore, there is NO REPROVING OF SIN -- and as a result . . . they will NEVER REPENT (Jn. 16:7-11; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." (John 16:7-11)

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction FROM the PRESENCE of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

We can clearly see by observing the next section of the chapter in Hebrews 6 that vv. 9-11 mentioned by the writer, that those spoken of in vv. 4-6 are not directed towards born-again believers. In any case . . . it is still a warning to ALL, not only to the brethren ("ethnic Jews" -- and not brothers or sisters in Christ) of the dangers of falling away through apostasy.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded [better things of you], and [things that accompany salvation], though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:" (Hebrews 6:9-11)

Continued on next post . . .

*Light* · Jan 17, 2019

In Closing:

Then there is the Doctrine of Eternal Life. You can rest assured that if you have TRULY placed your TRUST in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and came before the Cross with a broken and contrite spirit -- then you are secure in your Salvation.

Jesus told His disciples not to rejoice that the demons are subject to them; but rather to rejoice that their NAMES are WRITTEN in Heaven (Luke 10:20). What is also interesting is that the NAMES of the Apostles are LITERALLY written in Heaven; i.e., the walls of the Eternal City and its Foundations (Revelation 21:14). Jesus has gone to prepare a place in Heaven for those who Love Him; as He has done with the 12 Apostles Of The Lamb. Is your name written in Heaven? Has a place been prepared for you?

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

"But to us there is but ONE GOD, [the Father], of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD [Jesus Christ], by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

There is ONE GOD and ONE LORD; and the title GOD and LORD are BOTH equal descriptions of DEITY (1 Cor. 8:6; Deut. 6:4-5). Eternal Life is not only a duration of time; it is also a QUALITY of Life with such variety that is beyond any understanding of the finite mind of man. A REALITY greater than what any man or woman can perceive in this realm of existence (1 Cor. 2:9; 13:12).

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our GOD is ONE Lord: And thou shalt love the LORD thy GOD with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

Jesus said that He gives His sheep Eternal Life; but His sheep are the ones who "continually" hear and follow Him; and know their Chief Shepherd (Jesus) in the most intimate manner. These are "characteristics" of His sheep, and they will NEVER PERISH. The word "never" is a double emphatic negative (similar to Verily, Verily) in the Greek grammar (e.g., "No, not, ever"). The verbs "hear" (akouo), "know" (ginosko) and "follow" (akoloutheo) are all in the present tense, active voice, and the mood is in the indicative. This all suggests that the characteristic's of Jesus sheep will "continue" to "hear, know, and follow" Him.

Some have argued that "as" one of Jesus' sheep, one could ("on their own free will") voluntarily remove or jump out of Jesus' hand -- and therefore "forfeit" their Salvation. The problem with that argument is that the passage says "NO MAN" shall pluck them out of my Hand; this would also include the "sheep" in the hands of BOTH the Father and the Son. If you feel as if you may be able to remove yourself from the clutches of BOTH the Father AND the Son by free-will, then you should ask yourself who it is you are putting your TRUST in? The teaching that one of Jesus' sheep can voluntarily jump out of His hand would not work for several reason -- even using the "free will" argument. The reasons are:

Jesus said that His (possessive pronoun) sheep will not listen to the "voice of strangers" or false shepherds; but will "flee" from them. (John 10:5)
Jesus said that even if one of His sheep wanders off voluntarily, He will leave the 99 in His fold to seek out that sheep that wandered astray [free will and voluntarily].
Jesus said that He is the TRUE shepherd and not a hireling; for hirelings abandon their sheep when there's danger approaching (John 10:12 -- i.e., "wolves").
Jesus is the GOOD SHEPHERD, so He will keep His sheep safe at all times. If Jesus allows one of His sheep to wander off and does nothing about it; how then is He the Good Shepherd? Is this how you feel about Jesus and His Power?
The subject (i.e., "Jesus' sheep") in that passage is in the "reflexive"; meaning that the "subject" (i.e., "Jesus' sheep"; or "you" -- if you are indeed one of His sheep) in the hands of BOTH the Father and the Son will have nothing to do with himself or herself being plucked out.

So my question to you is . . . are you TRULY one of His sheep? A great place to start would be an examination of the fruit of the Spirit. Such as:

Love
Joy
Peace
Self-control
Kindness
Goodness
Gentleness
Faithfulness
Patience

If you are in complete opposition to these Spiritual fruits, then that is a "red flag" that you may not be saved, or you were never saved to begin with. When we are born-again, we are "new" creatures in Christ, and sin will NOT have dominion over us during our life (cf. Matt. 3:8; Rom. 12:2-3; 2 Cor. 5:17; Heb. 6:1; 1 Jn. 3:9; 5:4; et al.). As we progress spiritually, we will have a greater hatred towards sin, and keep the commandments because we want to please God and display our Love for Him because He first LOVED us.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting CONTEMPT. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." (Daniel 12:2-3)

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have [entered into THE HEART OF MAN], the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:7-9)

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15)

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE." (Revelation 21:24-27)

God Bless!

FreeGrace2 · Jan 17, 2019

*Light* said:
I want to make this VERY CLEAR that I am NOT a Calvinist. I am making this crystal clear so that those who read this will not place a label on me.

These questions are:

Who deserves to go to Heaven?
Who deserves to go the Hell and the Lake of Fire?

If your answer is NOBODY to the first question, and EVERYBODY to the second question -- then you have answered correctly!

So if God decides to save SOME people and condemn OTHERS from birth, how then is He a MONSTER if EVERYBODY [deserves] to go to Hell and the Lake of Fire?

For context, I answered correctly, and I agree that the lake of fire will be an eternal torment.

However, in the post that you claim you aren't a Calvinist, you seem to believe that God saves and condemns people FROM BIRTH. That certainly does sound Calvinist, from their misunderstanding of the biblical doctrine of election, which isn't even about being chosen for salvation.

Could you provide evidence from Scripture about people saved or condemned from birth?

Thanks.

Butch5 · Jan 18, 2019

*Light* said:
In Closing:

Then there is the Doctrine of Eternal Life. You can rest assured that if you have TRULY placed your TRUST in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and came before the Cross with a broken and contrite spirit -- then you are secure in your Salvation.

Jesus told His disciples not to rejoice that the demons are subject to them; but rather to rejoice that their NAMES are WRITTEN in Heaven (Luke 10:20). What is also interesting is that the NAMES of the Apostles are LITERALLY written in Heaven; i.e., the walls of the Eternal City and its Foundations (Revelation 21:14). Jesus has gone to prepare a place in Heaven for those who Love Him; as He has done with the 12 Apostles Of The Lamb. Is your name written in Heaven? Has a place been prepared for you?

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

"But to us there is but ONE GOD, [the Father], of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD [Jesus Christ], by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

There is ONE GOD and ONE LORD; and the title GOD and LORD are BOTH equal descriptions of DEITY (1 Cor. 8:6; Deut. 6:4-5). Eternal Life is not only a duration of time; it is also a QUALITY of Life with such variety that is beyond any understanding of the finite mind of man. A REALITY greater than what any man or woman can perceive in this realm of existence (1 Cor. 2:9; 13:12).

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our GOD is ONE Lord: And thou shalt love the LORD thy GOD with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

Jesus said that He gives His sheep Eternal Life; but His sheep are the ones who "continually" hear and follow Him; and know their Chief Shepherd (Jesus) in the most intimate manner. These are "characteristics" of His sheep, and they will NEVER PERISH. The word "never" is a double emphatic negative (similar to Verily, Verily) in the Greek grammar (e.g., "No, not, ever"). The verbs "hear" (akouo), "know" (ginosko) and "follow" (akoloutheo) are all in the present tense, active voice, and the mood is in the indicative. This all suggests that the characteristic's of Jesus sheep will "continue" to "hear, know, and follow" Him.

Some have argued that "as" one of Jesus' sheep, one could ("on their own free will") voluntarily remove or jump out of Jesus' hand -- and therefore "forfeit" their Salvation. The problem with that argument is that the passage says "NO MAN" shall pluck them out of my Hand; this would also include the "sheep" in the hands of BOTH the Father and the Son. If you feel as if you may be able to remove yourself from the clutches of BOTH the Father AND the Son by free-will, then you should ask yourself who it is you are putting your TRUST in? The teaching that one of Jesus' sheep can voluntarily jump out of His hand would not work for several reason -- even using the "free will" argument. The reasons are:

Jesus said that His (possessive pronoun) sheep will not listen to the "voice of strangers" or false shepherds; but will "flee" from them. (John 10:5)

Jesus said that even if one of His sheep wanders off voluntarily, He will leave the 99 in His fold to seek out that sheep that wandered astray [free will and voluntarily].

Jesus said that He is the TRUE shepherd and not a hireling; for hirelings abandon their sheep when there's danger approaching (John 10:12 -- i.e., "wolves").

Jesus is the GOOD SHEPHERD, so He will keep His sheep safe at all times. If Jesus allows one of His sheep to wander off and does nothing about it; how then is He the Good Shepherd? Is this how you feel about Jesus and His Power?

The subject (i.e., "Jesus' sheep") in that passage is in the "reflexive"; meaning that the "subject" (i.e., "Jesus' sheep"; or "you" -- if you are indeed one of His sheep) in the hands of BOTH the Father and the Son will have nothing to do with himself or herself being plucked out.

So my question to you is . . . are you TRULY one of His sheep? A great place to start would be an examination of the fruit of the Spirit. Such as:

Love

Joy

Peace

Self-control

Kindness

Goodness

Gentleness

Faithfulness

Patience

If you are in complete opposition to these Spiritual fruits, then that is a "red flag" that you may not be saved, or you were never saved to begin with. When we are born-again, we are "new" creatures in Christ, and sin will NOT have dominion over us during our life (cf. Matt. 3:8; Rom. 12:2-3; 2 Cor. 5:17; Heb. 6:1; 1 Jn. 3:9; 5:4; et al.). As we progress spiritually, we will have a greater hatred towards sin, and keep the commandments because we want to please God and display our Love for Him because He first LOVED us.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting CONTEMPT. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." (Daniel 12:2-3)

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have [entered into THE HEART OF MAN], the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:7-9)

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15)

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE." (Revelation 21:24-27)

God Bless!

You said quite a bit there, and it looks like you spent quite a bit of time. However, I'll have to disagree with you on several points.

1. People don't go to Heaven
2. The punishment is not eternal.
3. Aion does not mean eternal.
4. The dead in hell do not speak. They are dead.
5. The one in Christ's hand can leave. The context of that passage is the thief plucking one from God's hand, not a person turning away.

It seems you've put a good bit of thought into this, however, I suspect your presuppositions are incoorect

FreeGrace2 · Jan 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
You said quite a bit there, and it looks like you spent quite a bit of time. However, I'll have to disagree with you on several points.

1. People don't go to Heaven
2. The punishment is not eternal.
3. Aion does not mean eternal.
4. The dead in hell do not speak. They are dead.
5. The one in Christ's hand can leave. The context of that passage is the thief plucking one from God's hand, not a person turning away.

It seems you've put a good bit of thought into this, however, I suspect your presuppositions are incoorect

Well, let's examine your points.

#1 OK, where do souls go after leaving the body at physical death? And provide Scriptural evidence for your answers.

#2 Given the very clear words of Rev 20:10, punishment IS eternal.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Note that the word "they" in the second sentence refers to the devil AND the 2 human beings that had been thrown into the lake of fire 1,000 years BEFORE the devil joined them.

So, explain how "day and night for ever and ever" doesn't mean eternally.

#3 Really? Just check any lexicon. From biblehub.com the word means "everlasting, eternal".

#4 Read Luke 16:19-31. Some consider this a parable, but since Jesus specifically refered to 2 people by name, it can't be a parable. He gave us an actual conversation between Abraham and a rich man. And He gave us a clear glimpse of Hades/Sheol and 2 of the compartments there: Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, where the Lazarus was, and torments, where the rich man was.

#5 There is NO mention of a thief in that context in John 10. But, don't believe what I say. Instead, believe what Jesus Himself said about it.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

From v.27 we know that the "them" and "they" in v.28 refers to Jesus' sheep. We know from John 10:9 that His sheep are those who have "entered by Him" (v.9) and are saved. We know from many verses that salvation is by faith in Christ. So the sheep of Jesus are believers.

So, we can exchange the "they" and "them" in v.28 with "believers".

This is what Jesus said:

I give believers eternal life, and believers shall NEVER PERISH; no one will snatch believers out of my hand.

And realize that "no one" means "no person", "no entity". Believers are persons.

So Jesus was making the point that not even the believer him/herself can remove themself from His hand.

Regarding anyone who "turns away", I assume you have some verse or verses that actually state that those who turn away will lose salvation, in very clear wording.

So, please share your verses.

In the meantime, I will share 2 verses that will prove that those who have believed will not perish.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
These verses teach that it is those who have not believed who will be condemned.

There are no verses about anyone who has believed being warned of being condemned.

Butch5 · Jan 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, let's examine your points.

#1 OK, where do souls go after leaving the body at physical death? And provide Scriptural evidence for your answers.

#2 Given the very clear words of Rev 20:10, punishment IS eternal.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Note that the word "they" in the second sentence refers to the devil AND the 2 human beings that had been thrown into the lake of fire 1,000 years BEFORE the devil joined them.

So, explain how "day and night for ever and ever" doesn't mean eternally.

#3 Really? Just check any lexicon. From biblehub.com the word means "everlasting, eternal".

#4 Read Luke 16:19-31. Some consider this a parable, but since Jesus specifically refered to 2 people by name, it can't be a parable. He gave us an actual conversation between Abraham and a rich man. And He gave us a clear glimpse of Hades/Sheol and 2 of the compartments there: Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, where the Lazarus was, and torments, where the rich man was.

#5 There is NO mention of a thief in that context in John 10. But, don't believe what I say. Instead, believe what Jesus Himself said about it.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

From v.27 we know that the "them" and "they" in v.28 refers to Jesus' sheep. We know from John 10:9 that His sheep are those who have "entered by Him" (v.9) and are saved. We know from many verses that salvation is by faith in Christ. So the sheep of Jesus are believers.

So, we can exchange the "they" and "them" in v.28 with "believers".

This is what Jesus said:

I give believers eternal life, and believers shall NEVER PERISH; no one will snatch believers out of my hand.

And realize that "no one" means "no person", "no entity". Believers are persons.

So Jesus was making the point that not even the believer him/herself can remove themself from His hand.

Regarding anyone who "turns away", I assume you have some verse or verses that actually state that those who turn away will lose salvation, in very clear wording.

So, please share your verses.

In the meantime, I will share 2 verses that will prove that those who have believed will not perish.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
These verses teach that it is those who have not believed who will be condemned.

There are no verses about anyone who has believed being warned of being condemned.

Thanks for the reply. We've been over this many times before so I don't really think there will be any progress in going over it again. I've seen your evidence and you've seen mine. I don't think anything will change.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
Thanks for the reply. We've been over this many times before so I don't really think there will be any progress in going over it again. I've seen your evidence and you've seen mine. I don't think anything will change.

Truth never changes. Of which you haven't provided.

Butch5 · Jan 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Truth never changes. Of which you haven't provided.

I agree that truth never changes. However, If you go back an look over posts in which we've engaged in the past you'll see that I have provided evidence. I've just found that it's not really profitable to debate when people essentially say, nuh uh.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
I agree that truth never changes. However, If you go back an look over posts in which we've engaged in the past you'll see that I have provided evidence.

Just check out EVERY response from me, where I refuted your so-called evidence. Just as I did in your post in this thread.

I've just found that it's not really profitable to debate when people essentially say, nuh uh.

I gave you an opportunity to defend yourself, but you punted instead.

I never forgo an opportunity to defend the truth. Those who can, do. Those who can't, well, they can't.

Could you identify what theology your views are based on, or do they come straight from your own opinions?

Butch5 · Jan 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Just check out EVERY response from me, where I refuted your so-called evidence. Just as I did in your post in this thread.

I didn't say you didn't respond. I said, I gave evidence.Of course you responded. However, you didn't refute anything because you can't refute the truth

I gave you an opportunity to defend yourself, but you punted instead.

I never forgo an opportunity to defend the truth. Those who can, do. Those who can't, well, they can't.

Could you identify what theology your views are based on, or do they come straight from your own opinions?

Right because past experience has shown me that it's futile to engage with you.

But you're not defending the truth, you're defending Calvin's doctrines.

But, since you're trying to goad me, I'll tell you what, pick a point and I'll show you that it's correct.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
I didn't say you didn't respond.

I didn't say you didn't.

I said, I gave evidence.Of course you responded.

I responded by showing that you had no evidence. And your latest response to my post regarding your so-called points again demonstrates your unwillingness to engage my points. Or defend your own.

However, you didn't refute anything because you can't refute the truth

Since I used the truth, of course I refuted your points.

Right because past experience has shown me that it's futile to engage with you.

You know what's futile? Trying to argue with truth. It never succeeds.

But you're not defending the truth, you're defending Calvin's doctrines.

Oh, good heavens, NO! I reject Calvinism. So try another line of defense. Oh, and while you're at it, I reject Arminianism as well.

I'll tell you what, just to show others that it's futile, pick at point and I show you it's what that it's correct.

This just proves that you don't even read my posts. I addressed EVERY point you made and either asked for Scriptural evidence that supports the point, or I shared Scripture that directly and flat-out refuted your point.

I addressed every point you made. But it seems you didn't know that.

Butch5 · Jan 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I didn't say you didn't.

I responded by showing that you had no evidence. And your latest response to my post regarding your so-called points again demonstrates your unwillingness to engage my points. Or defend your own.

Since I used the truth, of course I refuted your points.

You know what's futile? Trying to argue with truth. It never succeeds.

Oh, good heavens, NO! I reject Calvinism. So try another line of defense. Oh, and while you're at it, I reject Arminianism as well.

This just proves that you don't even read my posts. I addressed EVERY point you made and either asked for Scriptural evidence that supports the point, or I shared Scripture that directly and flat-out refuted your point.

I addressed every point you made. But it seems you didn't know that.

You're making my point before we even begin with your belligerent attitude. The only refutation is in your imagination. I also noticed you didn't choose a point. I'm not going to waste hours writing posts when it'll simply be a waste of time. It's quite clear from your attitude so far that addressing your posts will be a waste of time. However, I did offer to address at least one, and, so that you couldn't later claim that I used my strongest argument I suggested that you choose the point. You didn't choose any. This suggests to me that you know that you can't refute any of the points that I presented, because what you presented doesn't refute what I said. You believe it does because you approach the Scriptures with the wrong presuppositions. Thus you come to the wrong conclusions as to what the passages actually say.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
You're making my point before we even begin with your belligerent attitude. The only refutation is in your imagination.

In post #6 (your post) you listed 5 points. Maybe you didn't count them. Or forgot you numbered them. I don't know.

I also noticed you didn't choose a point.

In post #7, (my post), I addressed EACH and EVERY ONE of your 5 points.

I'm not going to waste hours writing posts when it'll simply be a waste of time.

This is the classic dodgeball for avoiding having to try to answer tough questions, or prove your own points. It's old and tired.

It's quite clear from your attitude so far that addressing your posts will be a waste of time.

My post was straightforward and focused on your 5 points. Any "attitude" you claim to have seen was only in your own mind.

However, I did offer to address at least one, and, so that you couldn't later claim that I used my strongest argument I suggested that you choose the point.

Do you not understand that an "offer" isn't even close to actually addressing one's points?

You didn't choose any.

Go back and look at your own post, #6, where you provided a list of 5 statements (points).

Then, scroll down 1 post to post #7 and look at my responses to EACH AND EVERY ONE of your 5 points.

This suggests to me that you know that you can't refute any of the points that I presented, because what you presented doesn't refute what I said.

Let's just consider this example. Your #1 statement was that "people don't go to heaven". Brilliant. So I asked for Scriptural evidence for that. Which you ignored.

You believe it does because you approach the Scriptures with the wrong presuppositions.

There were no such presuppositions in post #7. Or, feel free to point any and all you can find. I'm interested in knowing.

Thus you come to the wrong conclusions as to what the passages actually say.

Yeah, sure. Whatever. How about just addressing each and every one of the 5 responses I gave to the 5 points you gave in post #6?[/QUOTE]

Butch5 · Jan 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
In post #6 (your post) you listed 5 points. Maybe you didn't count them. Or forgot you numbered them. I don't know.

In post #7, (my post), I addressed EACH and EVERY ONE of your 5 points.

This is the classic dodgeball for avoiding having to try to answer tough questions, or prove your own points. It's old and tired.

My post was straightforward and focused on your 5 points. Any "attitude" you claim to have seen was only in your own mind.

Do you not understand that an "offer" isn't even close to actually addressing one's points?

Go back and look at your own post, #6, where you provided a list of 5 statements (points).

Then, scroll down 1 post to post #7 and look at my responses to EACH AND EVERY ONE of your 5 points.

Let's just consider this example. Your #1 statement was that "people don't go to heaven". Brilliant. So I asked for Scriptural evidence for that. Which you ignored.

There were no such presuppositions in post #7. Or, feel free to point any and all you can find. I'm interested in knowing.

Yeah, sure. Whatever. How about just addressing each and every one of the 5 responses I gave to the 5 points you gave in post #6?

[/QUOTE]

It's not dodge ball when we're not even debating. I've debated Calvinists for years. I'm well aware of the tactics that are used. So, the only things that will get me to address your points is calm reasoned discussion. I'm not intimidated by the "come out swinging and try to scare off the opponent" methodology. However, since you brought up point number one, that's an easy one. Jesus told the apostles that the couldn't go where He was going. Now, one could claim that He was only speaking to the apostles. However, if one was to make that claim they are left with NO Scripture that says people go to Heaven. So, to claim people go to Heaven is simply unsupported speculation.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

Gr8Grace · Jan 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
We've been over this many times before so I don't really think there will be any progress in going over it again.

Butch5 said:
But you're not defending the truth, you're defending Calvin's doctrines.

FreeGrace2 said:

Oh, good heavens, NO! I reject Calvinism. So try another line of defense. Oh, and while you're at it, I reject Arminianism as well.

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:
It's not dodge ball when we're not even debating. I've debated Calvinists for years. I'm well aware of the tactics that are used.

Seems someone has not listened the many times before. It's very true that your not debating FreeGrace. Your debating calvinism, and can't hear a word of truth FreeGrace/The bible has presented.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2019

Butch5 said:
It's not dodge ball when we're not even debating.

You are not even paying attention. I addressed each and every one of your 5 points, or whatever they are, and all you do is dodge.

I've debated Calvinists for years. I'm well aware of the tactics that are used.

More proof that you aren't even paying attention. I already told you I'm NOT a Calvinist. I've debated them for years as well.

So, the only things that will get me to address your points is calm reasoned discussion.

That's exactly what post #7 is, calm and reasoned.

I'm not intimidated by the "come out swinging and try to scare off the opponent" methodology. However, since you brought up point number one, that's an easy one. Jesus told the apostles that the couldn't go where He was going. Now, one could claim that He was only speaking to the apostles. However, if one was to make that claim they are left with NO Scripture that says people go to Heaven. So, to claim people go to Heaven is simply unsupported speculation.

Are you serious? Jesus was speaking of going to the cross. If you didn't know that, you've got a whole lot of catching up to do. lol

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

Of course, Jesus was speaking to just 12 men that night.

Which proves that your point that "people don't go to heaven" is pure nonsense.

btw, if no one goes to heaven, where does the soul go after physical death? Do you have any ideas?

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Seems someone has not listened the many times before. It's very true that your not debating FreeGrace. Your debating calvinism, and can't hear a word of truth FreeGrace/The bible has presented.

a voice from the peanut gallery.

Butch5 · Jan 20, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
You are not even paying attention. I addressed each and every one of your 5 points, or whatever they are, and all you do is dodge.

More proof that you aren't even paying attention. I already told you I'm NOT a Calvinist. I've debated them for years as well.

That's exactly what post #7 is, calm and reasoned.

Are you serious? Jesus was speaking of going to the cross. If you didn't know that, you've got a whole lot of catching up to do. lol

Of course, Jesus was speaking to just 12 men that night.

Which proves that your point that "people don't go to heaven" is pure nonsense.

btw, if no one goes to heaven, where does the soul go after physical death? Do you have any ideas?

It seems you're the one not paying attention. I said I've debated Calvinists. You're using the same tactics. Thanks for proving my point! You said, "Are you serious? Jesus was speaking of going to the cross. If you didn't know that, you've got a whole lot of catching up to do. lol" Rather than address what I posted you just wrote it off which is exactly what I intimated in my original reply.

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