Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

Archivist said:

So Christians shouldn’t eat meat?

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Is cannibilism actually prohibited anywhere?

Petros2015 said:

Is cannibilism actually prohibited anywhere?

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I don't think the Bible was referencing cannibalism when it says "the kingdom of God is not meat and drink." In answer to your question, cannibalism is illegal in Idaho except in limited circumstances. It is not specifically illegal in any other state, but it would qualify as desecration of a corpse which would be illegal.

I've often wondered why people debate alcohol consumption but are silent about gluttony. The same is true in many pulpits. Comfortable sins are sins nonetheless.

Archivist said:

And that is why I and others in this thread have talked about the importance of moderate alcohol consumption. A glass of wine with s meal does not impair your ability to drive.

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Your not getting it. Alcohol is like a sleeping beast awaiting to strike at the right moment in your life when life might get hard. Meanwhile, you are partaking of a drug and not a food that has no nutritional value and it seeks to attack your immune system and your body. Alcohol is a slow and subtle killer.

You are highly more likely to get drunk if you are already drinking moderately drinking instead of if you are against it.

Website links (like the one below) would not exist if there was not a problem to even moderate drinking.

Drinker's Check-up

LaBèlla said:

I've often wondered why people debate alcohol consumption but are silent about gluttony. The same is true in many pulpits. Comfortable sins are sins nonetheless.

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Because the fat people are visible in the crowd and everyone would look at them with condemnation when they might be struggling to overcome this sin (already). Granted, I do not believe the way that many Christians gather together is biblical, but that is another topic.

Archivist said:

So Christians shouldn’t eat meat?

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The point Paul is making in Romans 14 is do not do anything to make your brother to stumble in regards to what you eat, drink, and as a part of your observance of which day you celebrate and or how you regard the Sabbath. Today, many place alcohol up on a pedestal as if it is some kind of god or idol in their life above the Lord and above other people. They will drink openly even among other weak Christians or others who are weak and have a problem with alcohol by drinking publicly (without a care of who it may hurt). They are not willing to pick up their cross and deny themselves of a drug that offers no nutritional value and a drug that slowly kills their body. People's focus is all wrong here. They think they have a liberty in Christ to drink poison. But our liberty in Christ is not about doing things that are harmful to ourselves and others. He that defiles his own body, God will destroy that person.

Even a new study published by Time Magazine says that even moderate use of alcohol is the cause of early death, and other health related problems (that are downplayed in light of other health reasons).

Jason0047 said:

Because the fat people are visible in the crowd and everyone would look at them with condemnation when they might be struggling to overcome this sin (already).

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You raise an important point but their silence is pretty glaring. And it does nothing to minister to those who aren't addressing the issue.

As for alcohol, I was given a prohibition by the Holy Spirit. I am not required to abstain but was forbidden to consume alcohol when sad or upset. It would be a misuse of alcohol as a method of escape from what is bothering me.

There have been moments when I've experienced spiritual harassment when drinking. I didn't have a glass of wine for a few months. But it hasn't happened again. I don't drink very often.

Jason0047 said:

First, did you not say that those at the wedding feast were drunk?
If so, then why would Jesus contribute to their sin by making them even more drunk?

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I didn't "say" anything. I quoted scripture and provided the definition of the word translated "well drunk" in John 2:10. It is not my problem that scripture does not support your biases and presuppositions about wine.
If you wish to challenge my posts provide your evidence right here where where I can see it. Saying there is some evidence somewhere does not prove anything.

Second, not that it is applicable to the situation here, but there were ancient ways to preserve and make fresh grape juice according to historical documents. They boiled it or they made it into a paste and stored it in jars in cool temperatures, such as placing it under water. Welch’s was the first person to perfect the idea and popularize it or to turn it into a profitable enterprise.
Three, the Israelites bought, stored, and transported fermented intoxicating wine, but when it came time to drink it for social reasons or to consume with a meal, they mixed it with several parts of water so as to dilute it's strong intoxicating effects.

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No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical, Biblical etc. evidence.

There are three types of wine mentioned in Scripture:

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#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 20:1) (Proverbs 23:31) (1 Timothy 3:1-3).
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage)
(Genesis 40:11) (Isaiah 65:8) (Deuteronomy 32:14) (Matthew 26:29).​

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:
Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

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1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

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Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,

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"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."
Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.
John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29). The water is representative of the Scriptures (See Ephesians 5:26). We are told to abide in Christ and abide in His words (See John 15:7).

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Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

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God is criticizing the Israelites for mixing wine with water. Not telling them to do it.

NIV Isa 1:22
(22) Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.
ESV Isa 1:22
(22) Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water.
ISV Isa 1:22
(22) Your silver has become dross, your best wine is diluted with water.​

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

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How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry
If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.
So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.
Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.
Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:
2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc

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Not one verse which mentions wine being mixed with water on a regular basis.

Reconciliation and Truth said:

Alcohol is made the same way today as it has been for centuries. The only difference today is that yeast is carefully controlled. During the time of Christ, the yeast that fermented wine was wild. This produced more or less desirable flavors. This is why they spoke of saving the best wine for last. Now, you can pick the best yeast and breed it, as we do with animals.

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Actually, the Israelites were not like us Gentile barbarians who were known to drink wine in it's undiluted state whereby they would get drunk at drinking parties.

"For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine [getting drunk], revellings, banquetings [drinking parties], and abominable idolatries:" (1 Peter 4:3).

You said:

Please stop making excuses for people. A gun never shot anyone. The devil never made anyone do anything. The way a woman dressed never made a man rape her.

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No. While we are all will be held accountable for our own sin, ultimately, we can also be held accountable for influencing others to sin, too.

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6).

The Bible says we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation (Matthew 26:41). Why the need to pray so as not to be led into temptation if the temptation cannot make you sin in any way?

While we are not under the OT, here are the consequence of enticing others to serve other gods (i.e. influencing another to sin):

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, that is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: but thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do not more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee" (Deuteronomy 13:6-11).

"...Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall." (Romans 14:13) (NLT).

You said:

The reason that people drink excessively, or eat themselves to obesity, or make themselves diabetic, or become addicted to inappropriate contentography, or work too much, or cheat on their spouses, or chain smoke, or destroy their marriages with hobbies, or do any of the stupid things they do, is because they are using them to escape their real issues.

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More like they are trying to escape in serving Jesus Christ and being dedicated to Him and living and abiding in Him and having the fruits of the Spirit. It always comes down to if we are abiding in Christ or not (Who is the source of our eternal life). When people sin, it is during a time that they hate the light and neither come to the light, unless their evil deeds are reproved (See John 3:19-21) until they confess of their sin to Jesus and receive forgiveness (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

You said:

They force women to wear burkas in the Middle-East because men can't help themselves. You can't ban the symptoms of problems because it doesn't solve the actual problem.

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Wrong. Eve was enticed by her eyes by the fruit and it's appearance. Jesus says it is better to tear out your eyes (metaphorically speaking) instead of lusting after another woman with one's eyes (See Matthew 5:28-30). A person is more likely to think impure thoughts if they are surrounded by inappropriate content images or TV's that played inappropriate content movies. Why would it be different when women show forth their cleavage, wear no bras, wear almost see through clothing, or mini skirts?

You said:

People can go to the beach without assaulting a woman.

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I never said otherwise. Alcohol is not the same thing as scantily clad or nude women at a beach. The problem with alcohol is that it creates a habit to open the door to destroying your life in ways that you cannot imagine. It also is a drug and not a food that offers no nutritional value and it actually slowly harms your body (even with moderate use).

You said:

People can have a soda without becoming a diabetic. People can eat fast food without getting heart disease. If you are abusing alcohol, you are at fault.

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Again, not the same thing. Alcohol is not a safe substance to even drink at all just one time. Your immune system has to fight against it. It should only be used in a medical emergency to ease pain, etc. It should not be used as a social beverage or with a meal because you like the taste. Would you drink other known poisons that would slowly kill you over time?

Jason0047 said:

The point Paul is making in Romans 14 is do not do anything to make your brother to stumble in regards to what you eat, drink, and as a part of your observance of which day you celebrate and or how you regard the Sabbath.

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There are many things that we do that could trigger someone to stumble. Do you live in a nice house or wear nice clothing? That could trigger someone to be envious. Have you ever eaten a Big Mac in public? That could trigger someone to overeat (gluttony). Have you ever worn a bathing suit in public? That could trigger lust. The lsit could go on and on.

Today, many place alcohol up on a pedestal as if it is some kind of god or idol in their life above the Lord and above other people.

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How are those of us who are talking about the moderate consumption of alcohol placing it on a pedestal above God?

They will drink openly even among other weak Christians or others who are weak and have a problem with alcohol by drinking publicly (without a care of who it may hurt). They are not willing to pick up their cross and deny themselves of a drug that offers no nutritional value and a drug that slowly kills their body. People's focus is all wrong here.

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That the reason many of us have said that those who have issues with alcohol should not drink.

They think they have a liberty in Christ to drink poison. But our liberty in Christ is not about doing things that are harmful to ourselves and others. He that defiles his own body, God will destroy that person.

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I don't think that Jesus drank poison when He was on this Earth, but we know that He drank wine.

Even a new study published by Time Magazine says that even moderate use of alcohol is the cause of early death, and other health related problems (that are downplayed in light of other health reasons).

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That was addressed in a Harvard University report, which included the following:

What about recent headlines saying no amount of alcohol is safe?
A 2018 analysis in The Lancet of the global impact of alcohol on injury and disease made headlines when it concluded that even moderate drinking is unsafe for health—and the risks outweigh any potential benefits. However, according to Dr. Walter Willett, professor of epidemiology and nutrition at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, it can be “misleading” to lump the entire world together when assessing alcohol’s risk. (For example, while tuberculosis is very rare in the U.S., it was the leading alcohol-related disease identified in the study.) In an interview with TIME, Willett said that while there is “no question” that heavy drinking is harmful, there are plenty of data supporting the benefits of moderate drinking, and it remains a decision that should be determined at the individual level: “There are risks and benefits, and I think it’s important to have the best information about all of those and come to some personal decisions, and engage one’s health care provider in that process as well.”

You can find the complete report here: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutrit...-to-consume-in-moderation/alcohol-full-story/.

LaBèlla said:

You raise an important point but their silence is pretty glaring. And it does nothing to minister to those who aren't addressing the issue.

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Again, the form of gathering in churches today is unbiblical. In the early church, they gathered in each other's homes and they did not mix themselves with unbelievers to worship alongside them. Evangelism was done usually two by two by going door to door and not by altar calls. When the sin of gluttony was addressed, it was done by a letter to that church (if it was an issue).

You said:

As for alcohol, I was given a prohibition by the Holy Spirit. I am not required to abstain but was forbidden to consume alcohol when sad or upset. It would be a misuse of alcohol as a method of escape from what is bothering me.

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God's Word says we cannot defile our bodies, otherwise God will destroy us. There are medical studies that show that even moderate alcohol use brings an early death, and can cause certain health problems.

Also, our authority is not in just us praying and getting a feeling alone, but our authority is in the Word of God in what it says. We are told to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not.

You said:

There have been moments when I've experienced spiritual harassment when drinking. I didn't have a glass of wine for a few months. But it hasn't happened again. I don't drink very often.

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Perhaps it is God's way of saying for you not to drink at all. What you may view as harassment is God's way of telling you not to partake of such a substance because He loves and cares for you and He does not want you to mess with a drug or substance that continues to destroy so many lives today.

Der Alter said:

I didn't "say" anything. I quoted scripture and provided the definition of the word translated "well drunk" in John 2:10. It is not my problem that scripture does not support your biases and presuppositions about wine.
If you wish to challenge my posts provide your evidence right here where where I can see it. Saying there is some evidence somewhere does not prove anything.

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You are avoiding the issue here. Do you believe John 2:10 is talking about a wedding party that was already intoxicated or drunk? Yes, or no? Do you believe Jesus made even more intoxicating wine and that he contributed to their drunkenness? Yes, or no?

You said:

No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical, Biblical etc. evidence.

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Right, we don't have a time machine to confirm those historical documents, but why would they lie about such things in history? Did the teetotalers produce this information in history as a part of some conspiracy?

ESV 1Ti 5:23
(23) (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
NIV 1Ti 5:23
(23) Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
ISV 1Ti 5:23
(23) Stop drinking only water, but use a little wine for your stomach because of your frequent illnesses.
Marvin Vincent Word Studies
Drink no longer water (μηκέτι ὑδροπότει)
The verb N.T. lxx. Rend. be no longer a drinker of water. Timothy is not enjoined to abstain from water, but is bidden not to be a water-drinker, entirely abstaining from wine. The kindred noun ὑδροπότης is used by Greek comic writers to denote a mean-spirited person. See Aristoph. Knights, 319.
But use a little wine (ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ)
The reverse antithesis appears in Hdt. i. 171, of the Persians: οὐκ οἴνῳ διαχρέονται ἀλλ' ὑδροποτέουσι they do not indulge in wine but are water-drinkers. Comp. Plato, Repub. 561 C, τοτὲ μεν μεθύων - αὖθις δὲ ὑδροποτῶν sometimes he is drunk - then he is for total-abstinence. With a little wine comp. much wine, 1Ti_3:8; Tit_2:3.​

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Did you just copy and paste this from somewhere?
How does that really prove what you are saying?

God is criticizing the Israelites for mixing wine with water. Not telling them to do it.

NIV Isa 1:22
(22) Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.
ESV Isa 1:22
(22) Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water.
ISV Isa 1:22
(22) Your silver has become dross, your best wine is diluted with water.​

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As I pointed out before, silver is mixed with another element for it to be durable. Silver becomes dross because they have taken away the silver from the other element and it less silver and more of the other element. So the mixing is not the issue here. Wine was mixed with water as we can see by Paul himself. He says have a little wine with your water. We are told not to look at wine when it is red in the cup and it moves itself aright. This is because it is wine that is fully fermented and undiluted by water. The problem in Isiah 1:22 is not the issue that it has water, but that it is so diluted by water that it no longer has any element of the wine in it to enjoy it.

Not one verse which mentions wine being mixed with water on a regular basis.

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The Bible alludes to it by the verses I have shown, and it is confirmed by historical sources during that time period (unless you think there was some conspiracy by teetotalers corrupting history or something.

Jason0047 said:

God's Word says we cannot defile our bodies, otherwise God will destroy us. There are medical studies that show that even moderate alcohol use brings an early death, and can cause certain health problems.

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I have been healed from two incurable diseases and one unexpected injury. I am in excellent health and pursuing my calling.

Also, our authority is not in just us praying and getting a feeling alone, but our authority is in the Word of God in what it says. We are told to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not.

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I am aware of this and have the gift of discernment.

Perhaps it is God's way of saying for you not to drink at all. What you may view as harassment is God's way of telling you not to partake of such a substance because He loves and cares for you and He does not want you to mess with a drug or substance that continues to destroy so many lives today.

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There are no perhaps with the Holy Spirit. If He desired me to lay it down He would have said so. I hear Him perfectly. Obsessive and compulsive spirits don't magically appear. There must be something within the person they can grab hold of.

You're quoting medical information but that isn't how the spirit works. The Holy Spirit's directive points it out. "Do not drink when you're upset or sad." This allows the person to pacify their discomfort with the substance (drugs, alcohol, food, etc). That's how the doorway is formed.

Archivist said:

There are many things that we do that could trigger someone to stumble. Do you live in a nice house or wear nice clothing? That could trigger someone to be envious. Have you ever eaten a Big Mac in public? That could trigger someone to overeat (gluttony). Have you ever worn a bathing suit in public? That could trigger lust. The lsit could go on and on.

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Again, not the same thing. Alcohol is a poison and an addictive drug.

How are those of us who are talking about the moderate consumption of alcohol placing it on a pedestal above God?

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Because the Bible condemns the defiling or destroying of your body by drugs. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul says if we defile our body, God will destroy us.

You said:

That the reason many of us have said that those who have issues with alcohol should not drink.

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So people should experiment with this deadly drug to find out if they have a problem with alcohol?

I don't think that Jesus drank poison when He was on this Earth, but we know that He drank wine.

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Right, and older dictionaries define wine as either an unfermented fruit juice or a fermented fruit juice. We know Jesus drank unfermented fruit juice at the Lord's supper because they called it the: "fruit of the vine." Alcoholic fermented wine is no longer the fruit of the vine anymore but it is another changed substance. Any fruit or nutrients is no longer viable to the person who drinks of such a substance or drug. Yeast has eaten the sugars in the fruit, and it has changed into a different chemical (ethanol). It is not longer the fruit of the vine, but it is something else.

You said:

That was addressed in a Harvard University report, which included the following:

What about recent headlines saying no amount of alcohol is safe?
A 2018 analysis in The Lancet of the global impact of alcohol on injury and disease made headlines when it concluded that even moderate drinking is unsafe for health—and the risks outweigh any potential benefits. However, according to Dr. Walter Willett, professor of epidemiology and nutrition at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, it can be “misleading” to lump the entire world together when assessing alcohol’s risk. (For example, while tuberculosis is very rare in the U.S., it was the leading alcohol-related disease identified in the study.) In an interview with TIME, Willett said that while there is “no question” that heavy drinking is harmful, there are plenty of data supporting the benefits of moderate drinking, and it remains a decision that should be determined at the individual level: “There are risks and benefits, and I think it’s important to have the best information about all of those and come to some personal decisions, and engage one’s health care provider in that process as well.”

You can find the complete report here: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutrit...-to-consume-in-moderation/alcohol-full-story/.

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I would rather play it safe, than be sorry. I would rather take the chance on living longer and not drink. What benefit does it serve? There is no nutritional value, and it opens yourself up to potential alcoholism, drunk driving, and in influencing others in a bad way.

LaBèlla said:

I have been healed from two incurable diseases and one unexpected injury. I am in excellent health and pursuing my calling.

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If you are drinking, you are destroying your health (Whether you realize that fact or not).

You said:

I am aware of this and have the gift of discernment.

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But you are not seeing something that the Bible clearly condemns.

You said:

There are no perhaps with the Holy Spirit. If He desired me to lay it down He would have said so. I hear Him perfectly. Obsessive and compulsive spirits don't magically appear. There must be something within the person they can grab hold of.

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So God speaks to you audibly? How do you know it was God talking to you?

You said:

You're quoting medical information but that isn't how the spirit works. The Holy Spirit's directive points it out. "Do not drink when you're upset or sad." This allows the person to pacify their discomfort with the substance (drugs, alcohol, food, etc). That's how the doorway is formed.

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The Bible is our authority and it is not just by way of prayer. If this was not the case, then there would be no need to have a Bible. Also, scientific medical studies should not be so easily tossed aside. They are facts, and you have to deal with them.

Alcohol is a drug (with no nutritional value) that destroys your body the instant you partake of it. I find it hard to believe God would condone a known drug whereby it's fruits are primarily bad and not good.

Fish14 said:

In my opinion, drunkenness is the same as drinking alcohol. The "drunk" effect doesn't begin suddenly but increases in correlation with the amount of poison drunk.

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That's just as stupid as claiming that marital sex is the same as adultery, sodomy, prostitution, masturbation etc.

How does one glorify God with a drug that destroys lives every day?

Francis Drake said:

That's just as stupid as claiming that marital sex is the same as adultery, sodomy, prostitution, masturbation etc.

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It actually does not take much to be legally impaired while driving a motor vehicle (Especially for women who are shorter), and if you are business driver. Your reaction time is slowed and you can kill others. Also, alcohol is a poison and not a food. It offers no nutrition (Hence why there are no nutritional labels on most alcoholic beverages), and it actually seeks to attack your immune system (Whereby your body has to fight against it). Even moderate use of alcohol leads to an earlier death and can cause health problems.

Francis Drake said:

That's just as stupid as claiming that marital sex is the same as adultery, sodomy, prostitution, masturbation etc.

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Christians are told to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

The first sip of alcohol makes you less sober minded than you were before because it instantly starts to work at impairing your good judgment.

Jason0047 said:

If you are drinking, you are destroying your health (Whether you realize that fact or not).

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No, I am not destroying my flesh. My destiny is in God's hands. You are welcome to hold on to the convictions you feel led to uphold.

But I'll continue to walk in the fullness of the freedom He's given me. I will not live with a spirit of fear. I will not be ruled by a religious spirit. I won't give back one inch I've gained.